Any Interest in Cheap "Flat Pack" Enclosures? - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 07:21 AM
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Might as well build a CNC out of legos and model glue.

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Dan
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post #722 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

Yeah but did any of them have a CNC router!

This sites BOM is only $677 bucks!

http://buildyourcnc.com/billmaterials.aspx

They also have premade machines like the blackFoot 4x8 v4.1 for a cool $3k

Yeh, the guy that offered the service over on PE had his own CNC router. There's a decent amount of time to program the machines, so programming for a low quantity doesn't justify itself. You could cut them quicker by hand.

A lower grade CNC router that can perform half way decent would start around $10k and jump up very quickly to $20k, then $40k, then $100k. Any machine built with wood parts would have some issues. I'd be worried about that.

A few months ago I met someone that had his own machine with parts made of wood. He said he could make the speaker boxes we wanted. The sample flat pack he gave me for the Overnight Sensation was so far off that I was surprised he actually showed it to me. It was really bad. He's a good guy and all, but the machine was very inaccurate.

We've literally got about 2 weeks or so before things get rolling. The guy has already ordered some wood. I have no idea how the programming will go, but hopefully it's not too bad.
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post #723 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Which thing are you actually waiting for? I hope you haven't been waiting for a certain type of speaker design with a certain time line.

The new company is very close to getting started and I can only press it so far.

I'd like to have the old company do more work, but they were taking way too long, plus they required a large number to be cut......and paid for of course. If I had been running it as a business before, then it might have been different. Just keep in mind that so far, I've just been trying to help out and get things organized. I honestly don't have much control over how long it took that first company to cut the stuff. There's only so much I can do and nothing seems to happen as fast as it did a couple years ago. I've heard the same thing from other people as well.

I promise, it's coming. This was never really intended to happen overnight and I've been at the mercy of other companies. Plus the pallet of horns from Poland came in a few weeks ago, I'm working to get the SEOS waveguide manufactured, samples of speaker accessories tested and ordered, and my Dad had a surprise foot operation that won't let him walk for 10 weeks. So I had to do work at his house prior to him coming home 2 days ago. As you can imagine, it's been a busy month. Anybody that wants to help out can jump on in.

Once things get rolling and designs start coming in, it will happen much faster.

I was hoping for an 18" sealed sub box. Don't take my comment the wrong way, I understand there are circumstances I'm not aware of, I'm just anxious to get going on mine and the wait is becoming too long for me personally.
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post #724 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

I was hoping for an 18" sealed sub box. Don't take my comment the wrong way, I understand there are circumstances I'm not aware of, I'm just anxious to get going on mine and the wait is becoming too long for me personally.

I was going to have the previous company cut those, but after the Maelstrom was discontinued and the TC-Sounds jumped up in price so much, there was no way the demand would have been there for 100 enclosures. And at $125 or so each for the Baltic birch ones that Notny drew out.......well, you can see why I was a bit worried to do that. There will be an 18" version coming fairly quick once this is all going.

The first things designed and cut will be subwoofers.
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post #725 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 08:28 AM
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Well while you are waiting for the high quality magic sized 18" box to materialize you'll have plenty of time to contemplate..... Thanksgiving dinner

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Dan
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post #726 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 08:49 AM
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After watching that I'm glad we're just having turkey.
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post #727 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 09:18 AM
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I'm with you on that one.

I kind of follow this thread and I find the repeated requests for the random sealed box a little annoying. I know sealed is simple but, I think there needs to be some consensus on what the drivers and final performance expectations are. It's not going to be good if Erich goes to the trouble to have them made and everybody complains that it's not for the driver they want to use. And I would imagine it will be expensive because of programing/cutting low quantity's. It's not like knocking out a huge number of boxes specifically for MFW's that would sell and the setup cost can be spread out - instead the reality is that less popular generic designs sit in the warehouse and take up space and tie up $$$.

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post #728 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 11:07 AM
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I think people have just gotten the impression that Erich = Santa. It might seem like it, but it's not true. He can't grow that kind of beard.

Happy Thanksgiving. Can't wait to see what pops up in the next few weeks...I'm pretty sure I'll be convinced to sell my current sub for something much more devastating.
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post #729 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

I'm with you on that one.

I kind of follow this thread and I find the repeated requests for the random sealed box a little annoying. I know sealed is simple but, I think there needs to be some consensus on what the drivers and final performance expectations are. It's not going to be good if Erich goes to the trouble to have them made and everybody complains that it's not for the driver they want to use. And I would imagine it will be expensive because of programing/cutting low quantity's. It's not like knocking out a huge number of boxes specifically for MFW's that would sell and the setup cost can be spread out - instead the reality is that less popular generic designs sit in the warehouse and take up space and tie up $$$.

I mentioned this before but the way i think it should be done is 2,3,4,5,6 cu ft boxes and then have the baffles be a separate option. That way you could do buy a 6 cu ft box and do dual opposed 15", or one 18", etc etc.

Two alpine sws-15d2 drivers for sale $150
erich kit + titanic MK3 $200

Want to measure your subwoofers? check out my dummies guide for a step by step process to Room EQ wizard
http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html
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post #730 of 777 Old 11-24-2011, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

I mentioned this before but the way i think it should be done is 2,3,4,5,6 cu ft boxes and then have the baffles be a separate option. That way you could do buy a 6 cu ft box and do dual opposed 15", or one 18", etc etc.

That's sort of the plan. I'm thinking about having the smaller boxes made from Baltic birch, then use 1" thick mdf for the baffle. That way the baffle could have cleaner roundovers and a smoother finish if it was going to be painted.

Larger boxes would probably get a 1.5" thick baffle.


I need to try and design some of the boxes that can share the same sides, just change the width, etc. That would cut down on the number of parts needed for many different sizes. If anyone has ideas for that, I'm all ears.

Dual 10's could share the same sides as a 15" but just change out the top, back, and bottom. Dual 12's could share the same sides as a 18"....etc, etc.
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post #731 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 01:58 PM
 
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Hey that urban planner guy in Texas, who also has EE background with industrial controls and robotics, really worked hard on that CNC machine and doesn't deserve a once over glance and lego comment! What a jaded and cynical user-base we have on this forum...

You guys are way off base on what that thing can do.

Perhaps a photograph will do justice.





See all the woodwork that looks like it's hand-carved on that guitar case... That's with the BlackToe three axis.

Owhh and that guy is also a luthier and he builds his custom order guitars with it!

There are many hundred of videos on youtube from OWNERS of the unit.

BlackFoot 4.1 CNC Router

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-tDJAon3Ag

If you guys think you have to spend $20,000 to $40,000 on a CNC router your just about as misinformed and IGNORANT as a audio nut that thinks you need to spend $20k to get "high-end" loudspeakers!

LOL
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post #732 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 02:04 PM
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The wood router is simply not in the same class as a production grade CNC.

Regards,
Dan
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post #733 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 02:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

The wood router is simply not in the same class as a production grade CNC.

And a guy cranking out DIY cabs in flatpacks needs a high production unit!

Get real...

It would be a great addition and possible sideline business for a DIY guy with the space and shop/lab.

It's about $3k for a 4x8 without the table. About $4k all said and done with PC, router bits etc.

I suggest Dan you research it as you might be pleasantly surprised what you can get for $4k
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post #734 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 02:21 PM
 
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The world is on the verge of a revolution in home/small scale manufacturing. PopSci even did an article and COVER on it... They featured a small scale manufacturer of sports cars in the article. That guy builds CARS outta 4 industrial park bays!

This other guy has a great machine as well. Perhaps better than Patrick's.

http://www.automatedwoodworks.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XwM...eature=related

You know just like DIY audio there is an entire community involved in home brew CNC. And just like DIY audio, a lot of the stuff they've come up with is BETTER than commercial equipment!

His build thread.
http://cnczone.com/forums/open_sourc...oot_print.html

It's probably a LARGER community than DIY audio!!!
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post #735 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 02:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

That's sort of the plan. I'm thinking about having the smaller boxes made from Baltic birch, then use 1" thick mdf for the baffle. That way the baffle could have cleaner roundovers and a smoother finish if it was going to be painted.

Larger boxes would probably get a 1.5" thick baffle.


I need to try and design some of the boxes that can share the same sides, just change the width, etc. That would cut down on the number of parts needed for many different sizes. If anyone has ideas for that, I'm all ears.

Dual 10's could share the same sides as a 15" but just change out the top, back, and bottom. Dual 12's could share the same sides as a 18"....etc, etc.

WOW 1 1/2" baffle is THICK/HUGE. Really feel the extra half inch helps? Must be one hell of a chamfer so the drivers can breath because acoustically if it wasn't chamfered to at least 5/8" mark at 45° it would be DETRIMENTAL. Have you guys seen/heard about using the cultured stone/marble or cement counter top material? That stuff is RIGID! I personally can't think of better front baffle material than that stuff. I also really like the bamboo plywood products now available. Much better than Baltic birch. I think 1 1/2" front baffles are insane... heck if your that worried about it you might as well use CONCRETE to build a cab. That's the most ideal cabinet. Cement/concrete technology has also moved forward and there are some fantastic solutions out there for using it as a cabinet.
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post #736 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

WOW 1 1/2" baffle is THICK/HUGE. Really feel the extra half inch helps? Must be one hell of a chamfer so the drivers can breath because acoustically if it wasn't chamfered to at least 5/8" mark at 45° it would be DETRIMENTAL. Have you guys seen/heard about using the cultured stone/marble or cement counter top material? That stuff is RIGID! I personally can't think of better front baffle material than that stuff. I also really like the bamboo plywood products now available. Much better than Baltic birch. I think 1 1/2" front baffles are insane... heck if your that worried about it you might as well use CONCRETE to build a cab. That's the most ideal cabinet. Cement/concrete technology has also moved forward and there are some fantastic solutions out there for using it as a cabinet.


Most front baffles for subwoofers built here and other DIY sites are 1.5" thick. Many good commercial ones are the same way. They just double up the 3/4" panels. The sub driver would get recessed so that it's flush mounted which means most wouldn't need the chamfer bit.


The metal welded Do it Yourself CNC machines you posted aren't the typical DIY units. The wooden ones will be okay for a little while, but they would likely need to be realigned quite often.

There's no doubt that someone with good knowledge, good equipment, and a good welder could make a nice CNC for less money than a small commercial grade unit. But that's not the norm with most DIY machines I've seen.
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post #737 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 10:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Most front baffles for subwoofers built here and other DIY sites are 1.5" thick. Many good commercial ones are the same way. They just double up the 3/4" panels. The sub driver would get recessed so that it's flush mounted which means most wouldn't need the chamfer bit.


The metal welded Do it Yourself CNC machines you posted aren't the typical DIY units. The wooden ones will be okay for a little while, but they would likely need to be realigned quite often.

There's no doubt that someone with good knowledge, good equipment, and a good welder could make a nice CNC for less money than a small commercial grade unit. But that's not the norm with most DIY machines I've seen.

The sub in only recessed the thickness of the basket frame around the front. That's no more than 5mm. With a 1 1/2" baffle you really need to chamfer it out IMHO to 3/4"! Boundary cone wave even enter the surround you know! One would think that longitudinal waves will propagate from the edge of the cone and surround and bash into the side of your one and a half inches of WOOD and affect f/s and transient. The smaller the driver/shorter cone dept the affect would compound. Also the more open the basket the worse the affect would be.

Chamfering the back side of a baffle cutout

The Importance of Chamfering Driver Holes



Baffle Cutout Comparisons - Straight vs. Roundover vs. Chamfer Using Wideband Driver <-- bad test as the driver chosen doesn't have an open enough basket/frame. With say a TangBand W4-1337SD (would have been great for that test because tangband designed it as a full band PC speaker for logitech I think) the NEGATIVE affects would have been much more pronounced.

The Avalon clone makers were smart enough to chamfer their speakers and they sound better than the originals (no chamfer Avalon doh!)... I wonder why! duh! CHAMFER ALWAYS DUH!

IMHO it's a NO BRAINER just thinking and visualizing what's happening in terms of physics.
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post #738 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

The sub in only recessed the thickness of the basket frame around the front. That's no more than 5mm. With a 1 1/2" baffle you really need to chamfer it out IMHO to 3/4"! Boundary cone wave even enter the surround you know! One would think that longitudinal waves will propagate from the edge of the cone and surround and bash into the side of your one and a half inches of WOOD and affect f/s. The smaller the driver the affect would compound.


IMHO it's a NO BRAINER just thinking and visualizing what's happening in terms of physics.


Solid State, what makes you think there are no chamfers cut where needed? All the flat packs I've had done so far with the smaller mid woofers DO have chamfers cut behind the woofers. I cut them myself after the CNC company cut the boxes.

Your pictures are showing very small woofers, not subwoofers like we're currently discussing. As for the 1.5" thick baffle on the subwoofers, for someone that seems pretty DIY hardcore, I'm not sure why you'd question a thicker baffle. You mentioned they wouldn't need more than 5 mm of recess, but actually they'd need quite a bit more than that.
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post #739 of 777 Old 11-25-2011, 11:22 PM
 
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owhh you're talking SUB woofers... well even then I'd still do it anyway. I didn't realize all this flat pack talk was about sub woofer cabinets. I opened up one of Brian Ding's sub and was MIGHTY impressed at the bracing inside the thing. Bill Fitzmaurice's folded horn subs are quite genius in their internal design/bracing and as such only use 1/2" and it's a non issue. For what subs are this flatpacks for?

Concrete or cultured marble/granite counter-top is where it's at if your really worried about it.

or BAMBOO!!! IMHO the greatest material to build cabinets outta right now!



Teragren Bamboo Countertop/Butcher's Block

Another AMAZING high tech solution is... SEAgel.

It's a type of aerogel. As a technology in terms of say... amp weight and the advent of ten pound digital wonders aerogel will revolutionize speaker cabinets in 10-20 years.

It's acoustics properties are incredible in that SEAgel and other aerogels. Imagine how light a loudspeaker you could come up with if you had a composite outer speaker shell with that SEAgel sandwiched in-between.

I've been watching it for some years and waiting for it to get cheap when they start using it in supertankers and highspeed trains for dampening. I believe that time has come!

Another problem is that is shatters and breaks but due to it's high compression strength you could come up with some kinda injection mold after it's blown into a shell of some kind. Shell, SEAgel then uhh... something under high pressure that would create inner shell but be acoustically and structurally sound. Absorption coefficients will be unlike anything we've ever seen!

I love reading about anomalous material research it's so so interesting especially the nano tech revolution going on!

Even as dampening material it ROCKS let alone using it for the actual cabinet structure.

http://www.acoustiblok.com/ <-- their use of Aerogel is in an insulation strip product for steel framed homes. It's that stuff from the video below. It's seagel/aerogel mixed with polyester fiber. I can only imagine mixing it with other materials and what you could come up with. Perhaps cone material? owhh yeah that's been done!

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post #740 of 777 Old 12-25-2011, 11:47 AM
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merry x-mas guys!

i know some of you guys built the OS speakers, so can you help me out with some details?

1) are there directions on assembling the crossovers?

2) how do you attached the tweeter? glue?

3) any dampening needed, maybe poly sheets?

thanks, and merry x-mas.
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post #741 of 777 Old 12-25-2011, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

merry x-mas guys!

i know some of you guys built the OS speakers, so can you help me out with some details?

1) are there directions on assembling the crossovers?

2) how do you attached the tweeter? glue?

3) any dampening needed, maybe poly sheets?

thanks, and merry x-mas.

I can't recall which page I saw the crossover directions at, might have been Paul's site. Here's a build showing what they should look like in the end:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=228796


The tweeter is a push in style and fits very snug in place. No need for glue. You simply push back and forth on the sides until it's all the way into the recessed hole. It fits perfect, but will seem a little tough to get in there, that's normal. I tried one tweeter that was harder than normal to get in, turned out to be excess plastic 'glue' on the inner edge of the tweeter, not the actual box. If it's there, you can scratch it off with your fingernail if needed.

You can stuff the box with a good handful of pillow stuffing and you're good to go.
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post #742 of 777 Old 01-08-2012, 07:56 AM
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Just wondering out loud, sort of. I had placed my hopes (in getting a statement monitor put together) on your eventually getting flat-packs made for this speaker. I KNOW you must be very busy with all you have going but I have a bunch of drivers burning a hole in my pockets. Do you have a realistic ETA for these packs or has the idea been shelved. I kind of want to get them done and if you KNOW it is realistically going to be a while, I should probably move on. I love the apparent simplicity of putting together the boxes you have already made (and I live in an apt in NYC so big power tools are pretty much a no-go). I thought to PM you but I believe there is probably still a Lot of interest in this speaker so I figured a bit of rallying might sway you one way or the other with a bit more solidity. Please, before anyone jumps in to kill me, I understand his situation, I really do. I'm just asking whether it makes sense to continue to wait (which would be my preference) or move on in the knowledge that it could still be a LONG time before such a flat pack is put up for sale. I accept PM's as well

I'm getting there....!!!
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post #743 of 777 Old 01-08-2012, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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There were only 7 real requests for the Statement Monitor that I know of. After prices went up for the drivers, I think people changed their minds.

I asked the new smaller company if they could make a short run of those, and he said he could. But there are other designs being programmed in right now.

Next week there are 500 boxes being cut for a couple different designs. Along with about 100 more Anarchy TH subs. And I know that 2-3 weeks from now, they're suppose to cut about 1200 other boxes that will be going to Parts Express for them to help with. Most of those will be known speaker designs based around a .5 cu ft box and then a floor stander.

I'm still going to offer every different one on my site, but once PE said they wouldn't mind stocking them, some things changed and details are still being worked out.

I don't mind delivering them to PE for free, I just haven't decided if I will be putting the pieces for each one in different stacks, wrapping those stacks, and things like that. I certainly don't mind doing it for you guys, but not sure I have the time to do that many for PE.


There's about 8 designs currently done sitting at my place. I just haven't posted them yet because I don't know what PE actually wants to do yet. I can sell them for virtually nothing and will continue to do so, but Parts Express has to sell them for more simply because they offer free shipping and must make some money. Pricing will probably work out close to the same because they get better shipping rates, but need to charge a little extra. I don't need to charge that little extra, but my shipping rates aren't as good.
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post #744 of 777 Old 01-08-2012, 10:17 AM
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I'm still interested in a nice flatpack WaveGuide setup.
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post #745 of 777 Old 01-08-2012, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Those will be cut almost immediately once the new cheaper SEOS versions come in. Some will not have the cutout that matches the SEOS just in case people were going to use a different waveguide.
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post #746 of 777 Old 01-08-2012, 09:26 PM
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Thanks for the response, from the sounds of it will probably be a while. Fortunately or unfortunately as it may turn out, I bought all the drivers before the increase and before I really thought out the logistics of getting that much wood cut for those cabinets. Hell I think at this point I could get the sides done on my brother in law's circular saw. It is the baffle that has me well... baffled. No idea how to do that and have it look like anything worth having. Not sure what to do now, but I thought i'd ask since I hadn't heard anything for a while

I'm getting there....!!!
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post #747 of 777 Old 01-12-2012, 06:20 AM
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I don't know how much interest there would be, but one possible idea for a flat pack would be a 60x60º conical horn (w/ mouth flare) for use in Unity DIY speakers. Its not the hardest thing to build but the addition of a mouth flare, makes the mitre'ing a PITA.

For examples, see
http://www.cowanaudio.com/ under "Unity Horn Speakers"

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...ergy-horn.html
(not the S1 didn't have the additional flare, the S2 did)

See this thread for lively discussions:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...nity-horn.html

The holes can be left to be drilled by the user...I don't think that would be hard and will be dependent on woofer choice and design. However, it would be nice to fashion a CD mount, and that might make it harder.

JoshK on most other audio forums
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post #748 of 777 Old 01-12-2012, 07:06 PM
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Hi Josh,
Your average 3 axis CNC is not the tool for cutting compound miters like the ones in a unity horn. A good table saw and a quality miter gauge or sled are the tools of choice.

Regards,
Dan
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post #749 of 777 Old 01-13-2012, 06:27 AM
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There's that way, and there's also the circular saw on/against a track (or a "track saw" e.g. what Festool makes)

I use a Milwaukee circ saw with this track system: http://www.eurekazone.com/. It's okay overall but the track does have a little bit of play so I'm not sure I recommend it as much as I did when I first bought it. I kinda wish I had gone for the Festool.

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #750 of 777 Old 01-14-2012, 10:26 AM
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hey guys, how long are the port lengths for the OS kits?

would i be 'OK', throwing away the outer port extension?

thanks,
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