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post #31 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Back for more questions.

Right now my midbass is sounding pretty good. I have them hook up by sharing/splitting the sub out along with my sonosub and those midbass subs are taking care of the 60hz - 140hz regions. I use my two eq to set the HPF and LHF accordingly. However, I did some research and noticed that my receiver Marantz SR 8001 is able to do "Bi Amp" using the surround back speakers. My current setup is only 5.1 therefore I can use that two channels to bi amp the for the front left right speakers. I'm thinking to hook them up as a bass bin of my two front channels instead. Since I have two midbass subs, I can use one on the left and one on the right. I won't stand my front speakers on top of the these midbass sub though... cuz' the tweeter will be too high (probably 18" above my ear level). Do you guys think put the bass bin on the side of the front speakers be a good idea? I am just curious as to which way is better (using them as midbass subs or hook them up as bass bin for the two front speakers)? Any suggestions or advices?

Thanks.

Al,


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When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
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post #32 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 05:38 PM
 
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if you were 'somewhat' willing to put the sub under the speaker.. how much of a difference would it make if the sub was next to the speaker?

the phase differences could be bad.. kinda like a fluttering effect when the two speakers are outputing.
as you know, opposite phased soundwaves will cancel eachother out if they are the same frequency.
but opposite phased soundwaves of difference frequencies can also cause a loss of amplitude (or morph the shape of the soundwave)

anyways.. that is not why i posted.
i seen the speakers in the picture, and i think the gloss black would look really cute if the wood stain doesnt have lots of swirl scratches.
those screw holes on the back can be acceptable just the way they are (no need to patch them with a wood marker)

if the wood stain does have swirl scratches, gloss black would be clean and shiny and scratch free.. and the rest of the box would look less valuable (used and abused with a fresh clean plate doesnt blend together as one)
so if there are swirls from wiping the box clean, i would use a flat black then.


as a side note, i'm sure you are already aware of this..
you dont want the mid bass to be far away from the woofer/midrange/tweeter
its the same advice of the woofer/midrange/tweeter.
they are supposed to be as close together as possible so that the sound doesnt travel any distance when the frequency changes.

not much different if you had the mid bass on top.
the woofer on the bottom would play audio, and as the frequency increases.. the sound would travel way up to the top of the box, then back down to the midrange.
sounds stupid if you sit close enough to notice.
i dont think i would want my mid bass blending with the tweeter like that anyways.
i would just make a quick observation to hear if the tweeter output was distorted/modified.


sorry..
anytime you place speakers next to eachother, there is always a chance that their phase response is backwards and counter-productive.
some people just dont care, and they put the speakers close so the sound doesnt travel.. then they use an equalizer to raise/lower frequencies as necessary.

its only when there is a dip that you cant get rid of, would you then consider seperating the speakers (or changing the positive and negative wires around) to get the phase to blend better.)
i dont know much about polar response of a speaker, but that would be along the same set of train tracks for perfection.


can i ask what are your woofer/midrange/tweeter speakers?
and how far away do you sit from them?
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post #33 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

if you were 'somewhat' willing to put the sub under the speaker.. how much of a difference would it make if the sub was next to the speaker?

the phase differences could be bad.. kinda like a fluttering effect when the two speakers are outputing.
as you know, opposite phased soundwaves will cancel eachother out if they are the same frequency.
but opposite phased soundwaves of difference frequencies can also cause a loss of amplitude (or morph the shape of the soundwave)

anyways.. that is not why i posted.
i seen the speakers in the picture, and i think the gloss black would look really cute if the wood stain doesnt have lots of swirl scratches.
those screw holes on the back can be acceptable just the way they are (no need to patch them with a wood marker)

if the wood stain does have swirl scratches, gloss black would be clean and shiny and scratch free.. and the rest of the box would look less valuable (used and abused with a fresh clean plate doesnt blend together as one)
so if there are swirls from wiping the box clean, i would use a flat black then.


as a side note, i'm sure you are already aware of this..
you dont want the mid bass to be far away from the woofer/midrange/tweeter
its the same advice of the woofer/midrange/tweeter.
they are supposed to be as close together as possible so that the sound doesnt travel any distance when the frequency changes.

not much different if you had the mid bass on top.
the woofer on the bottom would play audio, and as the frequency increases.. the sound would travel way up to the top of the box, then back down to the midrange.
sounds stupid if you sit close enough to notice.
i dont think i would want my mid bass blending with the tweeter like that anyways.
i would just make a quick observation to hear if the tweeter output was distorted/modified.


sorry..
anytime you place speakers next to eachother, there is always a chance that their phase response is backwards and counter-productive.
some people just dont care, and they put the speakers close so the sound doesnt travel.. then they use an equalizer to raise/lower frequencies as necessary.

its only when there is a dip that you cant get rid of, would you then consider seperating the speakers (or changing the positive and negative wires around) to get the phase to blend better.)
i dont know much about polar response of a speaker, but that would be along the same set of train tracks for perfection.


can i ask what are your woofer/midrange/tweeter speakers?
and how far away do you sit from them?

Thanks for your input.

My LCR speakers are about 11' - 12' away for my listening position. Currently, my midbass subs are right next to my front left and front right speakers. As you've suggested, I might need to stack them up. None of my speakers are next to the LP except for the rear speakers... My sonosub is like 10' high and about 15' away from the LP. I might give try it out and place the midbass sub under my front left and front right and hook them up as the bass bin for the front two speakers. I will take a pix of their location and see what you guys suggest me to do.

Thanks.

Al,

Edit: Two front speakers are from GR-Research A/V 3 and the center is the Statement. Planning to upgrade the fronts to the Statement but I'm short of $$...
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post #34 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 06:12 PM
 
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with that much distance from you and the speakers.. it wont matter if the speakers or on the side or on the top or underneath.
you need to simply have a listen to hear if the speakers are interacting badly with eachother.

and you'll hear it if you listen closely.
the output from something will be less.
it could be amplitude, or it could be clarity.

if i was there in the room with you.. i would hold a fan and blow the wind sideways across the speaker.. that way you could hear the speaker playing through the wind of the fan, and its kinda what you are listening for.
muffled output or a loss of amplitude (or both).

i dont know how to use the phase response from software programs like room EQ wizard.. so i cant suggest using the program to see actual data.
but listening is just as clear to prevent/resolve a severe difference.

i'd think the listening position is far away enough, you could probably put the mid bass 12 inches away from the left/right speakers and not notice much travel as the frequency change causes different speakers to output.
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post #35 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 06:29 PM
 
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that is an awfully cute room..!
i like the colors (the walls with the fireplace and speakers.. and the walls and fireplace/speakers with the color of the floor)

i'd say you are severely affecting the output of the left mid bass with it pointed at the bottom of the main speaker.
having a reflection that close to the speaker will certainly make the output different than the other one.
you could push the other mid bass closer to the right speaker, that way both of the speakers are playing into the bottom stands the same (might be worth it for an 'effect')
or
i would leave the right midbass where it is and place the equipment rack on top of the mid bass (or swap the mid bass with the equipment rack, as much as it might hurt visually)
it would depend on how good the mid bass speakers sound when playing into the base of the main speakers.

i would also suggest moving the theater rack to where the lamp is..
you can simply unscrew the lamp and use only ONE of the three poles.. that way you can put the lamp on top of the equipment rack.


i think modifying the lamp and putting the equipment rack in that corner is the best option.. but i would seriously have some fun trying to play both mid bass speakers through the bass of the mains.
with all of that bouncing around and those posts cutting and bending the soundwaves, you might get a serious '3D' effect.
if it doesnt hurt the clarity and details, it should be a winner.
otherwise i would move the equipment rack so the mid bass speakers have a clear shot to your ears.

i wouldnt worry about the remote not working with the equipment.. the walls are white and should bounce around the signal from the remote, meaning the remote will work.
but.. having a closer look, it appears that the bottom piece of hardware is the qsc amplifier.
so you wouldnt be losing anything by not seeing it because its blocked by the mid bass.

you'll probably have to cut the lamp cord inside the pole.. but you can get some twist plugs to twist the wires back together.. shouldnt be hard to look at the cord and make a match.
just make sure you can screw in the top pole piece into the base before you do anything with the cord.

but i do believe that is all there is to say
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post #36 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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It's tough to balance the midbass and the front speakers output. But I think it got it close enough using the SPL meter and my ears. I made some measurements using REW. I have a pretty bad dip at my crossover point I think I need to play around w/ the midbass locations or stack them up as you've suggested to smooth out the FR due to phase issue... I just did not have enough time to mess around w/ my system. What location do you think I should place my midbass to give the best result? I actually only have two places to put them... one is to stack them up and put them behind my front left and place my amp on top of them... the other location i can place them in is behind my front right speaker and stack them up... If I hook them up as a bass bin for the front speakers then I will just need to put them where they are now.

Thanks.

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #37 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 06:40 PM
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let's cut to the core...

the mains in the picture have no woofers.

the dayton driver that you chose for midbass is about 85 db 1w1m.

please don't read this the wrong way, but my thinks is that all these low sensitivity drivers are your problem. in order to hit over 120db with an 85db drive, you will need several thousand watts before considering power compression.

what you need are some high sensivity woofers 97db 1w1m or so run from 60-350hz or so. look for drivers with lots of inductance management. they aren't going to come cheap. jbl 2226h, ae speakers td15m or any good mid-bass drive from 18sounds, b&c, bms, rcf, etc. if you can't afford new, consider some used.

i have no idea what 'anway' is talking about. seems like he is missing the whole boat.

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post #38 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anwaypasible View Post

that is an awfully cute room..!
i like the colors (the walls with the fireplace and speakers.. and the walls and fireplace/speakers with the color of the floor)

i'd say you are severely affecting the output of the left mid bass with it pointed at the bottom of the main speaker.
having a reflection that close to the speaker will certainly make the output different than the other one.
you could push the other mid bass closer to the right speaker, that way both of the speakers are playing into the bottom stands the same (might be worth it for an 'effect')
or
i would leave the right midbass where it is and place the equipment rack on top of the mid bass (or swap the mid bass with the equipment rack, as much as it might hurt visually)
it would depend on how good the mid bass speakers sound when playing into the base of the main speakers.

i would also suggest moving the theater rack to where the lamp is..
you can simply unscrew the lamp and use only ONE of the three poles.. that way you can put the lamp on top of the equipment rack.


i think modifying the lamp and putting the equipment rack in that corner is the best option.. but i would seriously have some fun trying to play both mid bass speakers through the bass of the mains.
with all of that bouncing around and those posts cutting and bending the soundwaves, you might get a serious '3D' effect.
if it doesnt hurt the clarity and details, it should be a winner.
otherwise i would move the equipment rack so the mid bass speakers have a clear shot to your ears.

i wouldnt worry about the remote not working with the equipment.. the walls are white and should bounce around the signal from the remote, meaning the remote will work.
but.. having a closer look, it appears that the bottom piece of hardware is the qsc amplifier.
so you wouldnt be losing anything by not seeing it because its blocked by the mid bass.

you'll probably have to cut the lamp cord inside the pole.. but you can get some twist plugs to twist the wires back together.. shouldnt be hard to look at the cord and make a match.
just make sure you can screw in the top pole piece into the base before you do anything with the cord.

but i do believe that is all there is to say

Thanks. That sounds like a lot of work. I might give it a try.. I might just stack the midbass where the lamp is and see if it helps on my phase issue at the crossover point.

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #39 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

let's cut to the core...

the mains in the picture have no woofers.

the dayton driver that you chose for midbass is about 85 db 1w1m.

please don't read this the wrong way, but my thinks is that all these low sensitivity drivers are your problem. in order to hit over 120db with an 85db drive, you will need several thousand watts before considering power compression.

what you need are some high sensivity woofers 97db 1w1m or so run from 60-350hz or so. look for drivers with lots of inductance management. they aren't going to come cheap. jbl 2226h, ae speakers td15m or any good mid-bass drive from 18sounds, b&c, bms, rcf, etc. if you can't afford new, consider some used.

i have no idea what 'anway' is talking about. seems like he is missing the whole boat.

Thanks. I don't take stuffs like this the wrong way. Thank you for your honest opinion. I'm here to learn. Anyway, my midbass consist of two Peerless SLS12. Their SPL is at 91.2db according to the PE. Like you've said, I need something better like those AE Speakers... I need don't have enough $$ now and just need to make what I have work... How do you think I should setup my midbass?

Thanks.

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #40 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 07:14 PM
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if you have full control, i'd cross your mains to the mid basses at around 350hz or so. keep your mid basses close to your mains.

on another note, your room could also use some reflection absorption. at a very minimum absorption panels on the walls to knock down that first reflection will help alot.

i just kind of feel bad because i know what you are looking for. if you sacrifice good inductance management, there are some options that are pretty low in price. eminence has a couple drivers that could be a big upgrade.

don't have any worries, you are very close.

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post #41 of 47 Old 04-16-2011, 08:34 PM
 
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here's the thing.. i dont know those speakers (i dont know their frequency response or their phase response or anything detailed)
LDT02 might know those speakers.
i dont want to provide different information if the speakers are known.
that would lead you into a direction of impossible, and i'm not trying to do that.

i will bring you back to the basics.
first of all, if the speakers have very wrong phase at the crossover point, two things can happen:
1. the crossovers can make the phase worse
2. the phase difference between the mid bass speakers and the mains are at such an opposite, the amplitude is lowering.

there are two crossovers in question:
1. the crossover of the QSC amplifier (to the mid bass)
2. the crossover of the receiver (to the mains)

it has been said, and is floating around.. crossovers can inject phase into the soundwave.
i havent experimented with this.. and i dont know if modern crossovers inject phase at the crossover frequency, or if there are phase changes throughout the lower frequencies below the crossover point (or above it).

two things you could try:
1. raise the crossover point and hope the phase injection moves forward with the frequency (try this with the crossover on the qsc amp (raise it) and the crossover on the receiver (lower it) )
if it works, you can use an equalizer to reduce the overlaping frequencies (if they become too loud)
2. you could try different crossovers.. a passive crossover that connects to the speaker wires.
but the thing here is, will the crossover do the same thing?
you might have to request 'no phase change' or 'negative phase change' or 'positive phase change' to see which one fits the best.
i dont believe its easy to simply ask a store, and you would be better off asking a person who builds circuits for a hobby.

i had another suggestion but i cant for the life of me remember what it was.
i got finished with number one and the 2nd thing to try was simply gone.
so i just threw in another choice/chance.


phase is kinda weird.. because the phase between the two speakers dont have to be off for a problem.
if there is any chance that the room is somehow changing the phase as the soundwaves 'ring' or 'echo' in the room.. that can create a dull point in the frequency response.
i know.. reflections dont usually change the phase very much.
and i'm not a physics genius.. but i wouldnt say its impossible to have reflections congregate in such a way that the phase does get flipped or tossed around.
as a matter of fact, i think if the wave hits the wall at just the right time.. the up and down peaks of the wave can be canceled out, as a third reflection allows the opposed to travel out into the room.
but this deals with how far away the reflection is and should be frequency dependant (with possible multiples of success).

can you remove the crossover on either the mid bass or main speaker and play some audio at a low level to see if the problem goes away?
because this should instantly tell you if the speakers are being rock-hard stubborn and the focus of the problem.


lets not confuse 'bass bin' with 'base bin' when/if there is a chance.
if the speakers are 'stuck' with opposing phase.. that doesnt mean you cant adjust the phase.
there are three ways of doing it.. and two of them are better than the third choice.
1. digital processing to change the phase.. if that means getting a soundcard and using the soundcard to process the audio, so be it.
you might find a piece of hardware that does it for you by placing it between the inputs of the amplifier.
2. analog components can also change the phase.. its like literally connecting a circuit board to the speaker wires before entering the speaker.
this would seem to be the easiest choice, because this 'trick' has been around since probably the 1950's
the only downside to this is the quality of the pieces used on the circuit board.. some will attenuate the details, the premium pieces will be more transparent.. and some pieces can actually raise the volume of some frequencies and/or cause a 'colored' output.
3. flip the positive and negative wires of the speaker so the crossover point is closer to the phase of the other speaker.
this IS an option.. but it can have dramatic affects when the phase of each speaker is canceling out other soundwaves.
i mean.. it could be the subwoofer canceling out the mid bass.
the subwoofer canceling out the mains.
the mid bass canceling out the mains.
mid bass canceling out the subwoofer.
really any combination would be decay.. and that is why all speakers are supposed to be wired up positive to positive / negative to negative.

some people might think its okay to wire the mid bass in the opposite phase because those frequencies arent the same frequencies played by any other speaker.
but the truth is.. a soundwave is a rise and fall, and those soundwaves touch eachother no matter what frequency they are.


have you tried to raise the crossover point to see if the dip goes away?
i would again suggest you turn the crossover off and see if the problem goes away.

the last thing that could be said, maybe the room itself is causing the dip at the certain frequency.
you can test this by asking any speaker to play the frequency range that has a dip.
if one of them can bring the dip up a good amount, without having to crank the volume.. then it should be safe to say the shape of the room isnt the problem.


you are at the point of:
1. is the crossovers causing a phase problem
2. are the speakers natural phase response the problem (and can the phase be manipulated without the speaker distorting?)
3. is the room causing the problem
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My head is spinning!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

My head is spinning!

Lmao, you make me taking him off ignore just for laugh...

I got as far as...

Quote:


i will bring you back to the basics.
first of all, if the speakers have very wrong phase at the crossover point, two things can happen:
1. the crossovers can make the phase worse
2. the phase difference between the mid bass speakers and the mains are at such an opposite, the amplitude is lowering.

there are two crossovers in question:
1. the crossover of the QSC amplifier (to the mid bass)
2. the crossover of the receiver (to the mains)

And I decided to put him back on ignore. Again, he is posting something that is completely false.

Phase is dependant on the crossovers used. He should know that.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #44 of 47 Old 04-17-2011, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if you have full control, i'd cross your mains to the mid basses at around 350hz or so. keep your mid basses close to your mains.

on another note, your room could also use some reflection absorption. at a very minimum absorption panels on the walls to knock down that first reflection will help alot.

i just kind of feel bad because i know what you are looking for. if you sacrifice good inductance management, there are some options that are pretty low in price. eminence has a couple drivers that could be a big upgrade.

don't have any worries, you are very close.

Thanks LTD02, unfortunately I don't have full control and can't cross the midbasses at 350hz. I can only set LPF and/or HPF using my EQ for the midbasses. For my mains, I have to use the crossovers on my reciever and I think it goes up to 180hz only. I will mess around with the midbass locations to see if there's any improvement at the crossover point. Other than that my system sounds fairly good...

On a different topic, I have noticed that when I move my sonosub to that location (10' high) the room gain boosted +5db at 14hz - 18hz region. Have any of you try to move the sub up high like that?

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #45 of 47 Old 04-17-2011, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Anwaypasible,

Thanks for your input and your time... I'm kinda lost though

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #46 of 47 Old 04-17-2011, 12:36 PM
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i finally decoded what he is saying. it is simply that if your mains and your subs are out of phase at the crossover point, you could get a cancellation.

if you can take a frequency response sweep this will show up as a null at the crossover point. since the crossover point in the region where you are concerned, it is worth taking a look at.

also, watch boundary cancellation. walls/floors that are about 2.5-4 feet from your bass bins will cause 3db cancellation per boundary. that can knock out a lot of energy.

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post #47 of 47 Old 04-17-2011, 12:40 PM
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one quick way to ensure that your speakers are in phase is to wire your subwoofer backwards (out of phase). then run some pink noise or something and adjust the phase until you get the largest possible dip at the crossover point (if you don't have a phase control, the delay or distance settings in your receiver do effectively the same thing). then switch the wiring back to normal and you will be good to go.

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