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post #1 of 47 Old 01-28-2011, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,

I'm planning to build a sub or two for the mid bass. I was looking at the Dayton Audio RSS315HO-4 12" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm for this project. I just need some advices from you guys. Is that a good driver for mid bass? The other driver Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm is out of stock at the moment. Which one is a better driver for this job? What other 12" drivers out there that I should look into other than these two? I'm aiming at 50hz - 150hz range. Also, I'm think of get an pro amp like QSC or Crown amp to drive this sub.

Thanks,

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #2 of 47 Old 01-29-2011, 05:07 AM
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Dunno if this helps but I'm using dual 390HF's in a sealed box for the 50-80Hz duty.
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post #3 of 47 Old 01-29-2011, 05:59 AM
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So midbass for HT is 50Hz-150Hz-ish?

Isn't that very localizable? I would think you would want very capable surrounds, at least MTM's, no? My subs are meant for hugely exaggerated ULF yet I still get excellent (to me) output to 250Hz from them.

I'm asking, curious, don't mean to hijack
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post #4 of 47 Old 01-29-2011, 06:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post
So midbass for HT is 50Hz-150Hz-ish?

Isn't that very localizable? I would think you would want very capable surrounds, at least MTM's, no? My subs are meant for hugely exaggerated ULF yet I still get excellent (to me) output to 250Hz from them.

I'm asking, curious, don't mean to hijack
You run your subs from very low up to 250hz? Are your mains crossed at 250hz or are you overlapping the mains? I assume multiple subs is taking care of localization.
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post #5 of 47 Old 01-29-2011, 06:24 AM
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If you already have the Dayton drivers, use them. They'll work just fine. If you're buying something new, for your purpose I would look something that trades off a little more extension for efficiency.

For auxiliary subs I really like the Peerless SLS12. It's very inexpensive, has a solid motor design, and good efficiency. If you want to step up in build quality and maybe performance, look at a Peerless XLS, or maybe something from B&C.

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post #6 of 47 Old 01-29-2011, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

You run your subs from very low up to 250hz? Are your mains crossed at 250hz or are you overlapping the mains? I assume multiple subs is taking care of localization.

Im crossed at 80Hz but sometimes yes Ill run them 250Hz. Localization isnt a prob, they are front left and front right with the mains attatched to them. If they were behind me or to one side, then theyd be a problem. I LOVE Walter's voice from Fringe. Deep, crisp. My tiny little cubes probably arent much good below 250Hz. I listen at medium level though, only ULF is extremely "loud".

In my van, though, Ive got 1700 RMS going to four Extremis 6.4's in very tiny sealed enclosures covering 80Hz-710Hz. You can FEEL it in your chest, legs, whole body...plus feel it in everything you touch like the floor boards. The right frequencies actually tickle your ear canal, feels like there's bugs crawlin in... wait... nevermind
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post #7 of 47 Old 01-29-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

So midbass for HT is 50Hz-150Hz-ish?

Isn't that very localizable?

I've found that, if the mains are also running open (or at least with a fairly low highpass), one can run a properly set-up multisub system up to 160Hz or so with no localization issues. I don't know if it's masking or something else going on, but it does not seem to be an issue.

Perhaps that is also true with the mains highpassed higher (80-160Hz) but I've not personally tried that.

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post #8 of 47 Old 01-29-2011, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

If you already have the Dayton drivers, use them. They'll work just fine. If you're buying something new, for your purpose I would look something that trades off a little more extension for efficiency.

For auxiliary subs I really like the Peerless SLS12. It's very inexpensive, has a solid motor design, and good efficiency. If you want to step up in build quality and maybe performance, look at a Peerless XLS, or maybe something from B&C.

Thanks DS-21,

How about this Eminence Kappa Pro-12A 12" Cast Frame Driver with good efficiency? I will do two of those cuz' I have 2 cabinets for 12" driver. My plan is to set LPF at 50hz on my sonotube 300L sub (it's good from 14hz - 50hz) and have these two midbass subs handle the 50hz - 140hz region. I will cross all my speakers at 140hz on my Marantz 8001 receiver. I'll probably find some used pro amp like QSC or Crown to drive these 12". My budget is around $400 or so. Hopefully I can pick up a Crown XLS 402 or 202 for about $150. How is this sound?

Thanks.

EDIT: this driver B&C 12CL76 12" Neodymium Woofer will be a perfect fit for my cabinets on the cut out hole. Will this be a better choice than the Kappa Pro driver? Thanks

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #9 of 47 Old 02-13-2011, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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After a few models from Bassbox, I decide to purchase the Peerless SLS12. The cabinets are free. I picked them up when M&K went out of business. Anyway, I did some work to patch up the amp hole in the back of the cabinet. I got a few pictures during the process.

I will need to sand flat the patched up area tomorrow, then probably going to paint it back. Should I go with flat black or gloss black? I was thinking of getting the vinyl laminate from Parts Express but I'm afraid that the vinyl laminate isn't matching with my cabinet. Any suggestion?

Thanks.

Al,
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #10 of 47 Old 02-14-2011, 01:38 AM
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http://www.orcadesign.com/products/phl/4530P.htm

I just saw you have your driver already but I figured I would tell you about another choice also for the future.
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post #11 of 47 Old 02-14-2011, 01:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

http://www.orcadesign.com/products/phl/4530P.htm

I just saw you have your driver already but I figured I would tell you about another choice also for the future.

Thanks, but I can't afford that driver at $424 a piece. Way over my budget.

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #12 of 47 Old 02-14-2011, 02:25 AM
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And you could get an AE TD-M driver for about 2/3 of that in the US.
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post #13 of 47 Old 02-14-2011, 05:02 AM
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AE would also be at the top of my list but I missed where you mentioned your budget. Sorry
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post #14 of 47 Old 02-14-2011, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

AE would also be at the top of my list but I missed where you mentioned your budget. Sorry

No need to say sorry... I did not mention about budget. I'm just trying to have this done with low budget in mind. So far, I'm spending around $330 for those two Peerless drivers, two set of binding posts and an QSC amp to drive them. I have the rest of other stuffs like mdf, glue, screws, etc...

Thanks.

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #15 of 47 Old 02-14-2011, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wackii View Post

I will need to sand flat the patched up area tomorrow, then probably going to paint it back. Should I go with flat black or gloss black? I was thinking of getting the vinyl laminate from Parts Express but I'm afraid that the vinyl laminate isn't matching with my cabinet. Any suggestion?

Thanks.

Al,

How about Satin Black? Not too shiny and not too flat.

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Amps: Carver AV 806x/Behringer EP4000
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post #16 of 47 Old 02-14-2011, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

So midbass for HT is 50Hz-150Hz-ish?

HT, music:

20-40 Hz: deep bass
40-80 Hz: mid bass
80-160Hz: upper bass
160-320Hz: lower mid range

Above this point the various charts begin to diverge.............

GM

Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.
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post #17 of 47 Old 02-14-2011, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

And you could get an AE TD-M driver for about 2/3 of that in the US.

The X and S series choices would be better for 50Hz to 150Hz (More Xmax).

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post #18 of 47 Old 02-15-2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

The X and S series choices would be better for 50Hz to 150Hz (More Xmax).

I agree, which is why I bought the X's (but not for an MBM) but my comment was more related to an equivalent to the PHL mentioned which is more in line with the M's.
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post #19 of 47 Old 02-15-2011, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wackii View Post

So far, I'm spending around $330 for those two Peerless drivers, two set of binding posts and an QSC amp to drive them.

Nice!

Contrary to popular perception, high-fidelity does not need to be extremely expensive. It just requires thought.

One thing to consider is that you'll probably need some kind of extra processing to get your subs to integrate with each other and with your mains. I say that especially because you mention your big sonotube only operating over a limited bandwidth. That makes me think you have a very high-inductance woofer in there, or pretty severe port resonance issues. (Or it could, admittedly, be a big bandpass design.)

What kind of measurement capabilities do you have on hand right now?

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post #20 of 47 Old 02-16-2011, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Nice!

Contrary to popular perception, high-fidelity does not need to be extremely expensive. It just requires thought.

One thing to consider is that you'll probably need some kind of extra processing to get your subs to integrate with each other and with your mains. I say that especially because you mention your big sonotube only operating over a limited bandwidth. That makes me think you have a very high-inductance woofer in there, or pretty severe port resonance issues. (Or it could, admittedly, be a big bandpass design.)

What kind of measurement capabilities do you have on hand right now?

Currently, my sonosub is capable to going down to 15hz or so (see graph). It's an avalanche 15" powered by the crown xls 802 on one channel (800w @ 4ohms). I'm using Shure DFR 11EQ for EQ. With these two midbass subs, I will set the LPF on Shure DFR at 50hz so that my sonosub will only handle the 15hz - 50hz region. I will use the QSC amp which has the HPF at 50hz for my two midbass subs. I also have an extra Shure DFR 11EQ to use for the midbas subs. I will set the crossover on my Marantz SR 8001 receiver at 140hz. That means my two midbass subs will handle 50hz - 140hz region. I hope this makes sense or at least that's my plan. Does this sound okay to you guys? I appreciate any tips/advices.

Thank you.

Al,
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"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #21 of 47 Old 02-16-2011, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

How about Satin Black? Not too shiny and not too flat.

Thanks. I might try that. Do they have it in spray can? I would like to use the spray can and avoid the mess of rolling paint.

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #22 of 47 Old 02-16-2011, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wackii View Post

Thanks. I might try that. Do they have it in spray can? I would like to use the spray can and avoid the mess of rolling paint.

Al,

Yup. Just about anywhere I would think.

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post #23 of 47 Old 02-16-2011, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wackii View Post
Currently, my sonosub is capable to going down to 15hz or so (see graph). It's an avalanche 15" powered by the crown xls 802 on one channel (800w @ 4ohms).
Hmm. How much EQ do you need to get the response to look like that in the 40-80 Hz range? My old Ava18 had a huge inductive bump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wackii View Post
I'm using Shure DFR 11EQ for EQ. With these two midbass subs, I will set the LPF on Shure DFR at 50hz so that my sonosub will only handle the 15hz - 50hz region. I will use the QSC amp which has the HPF at 50hz for my two midbass subs. I also have an extra Shure DFR 11EQ to use for the midbas subs. I will set the crossover on my Marantz SR 8001 receiver at 140hz. That means my two midbass subs will handle 50hz - 140hz region. I hope this makes sense or at least that's my plan. Does this sound okay to you guys?
It appears you have the measurement capability and processing horsepower to really nail the bass in your room. (I'd never heard of that processor, but it
seems plenty capable for this task.)

The only thing I would say is, don't be too wedded to any particular crossover frequencies. Once you have the bones in place - multiple subs, measurement capability, DSP horsepower, big volume displacement - pretty much everything is subject to experimentation. I think I would start with your 50Hz lowpass on the Ava15 and no highpass on the auxillary subs. If you hear strain down low, then highpass them. Also, I would consider (since your EQ allows you to flatten it out pretty nicely) experimenting with running the Ava15 up to 80Hz or so, and overlapping with the SLS12's.

But the bottom line is, let your measurements and your ears/face/chest guide you, and don't be afraid to try setting that deviate from the conventional wisdom to see if they measure and/or sound better in your room. Because high-fidelity bass is very much a site-specific iterative process.

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post #24 of 47 Old 02-16-2011, 07:55 AM
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DS-21 just curious how high is considered to be a huge inductance hump?
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post #25 of 47 Old 02-16-2011, 08:06 AM
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I don't remember the exact magnitude, and I no longer have the graphs (I haven't used the Ava18 for about 4 years, or whenever it was that Kevin first delivered his first run of preorder Mael-X's) but it was probably on the order of 6 dB.

I do remember that the only drivers (that I've seen) measure with higher inductive humps are the old TC-made Stryke (now AE) HE15 (3HP motor I think, no shorting ring), and the TC3000 (looooong coil conventional overhung, with shorting rings I think).

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post #26 of 47 Old 02-16-2011, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Hmm. How much EQ do you need to get the response to look like that in the 40-80 Hz range? My old Ava18 had a huge inductive bump.



It appears you have the measurement capability and processing horsepower to really nail the bass in your room. (I'd never heard of that processor, but it
seems plenty capable for this task.)

The only thing I would say is, don't be too wedded to any particular crossover frequencies. Once you have the bones in place - multiple subs, measurement capability, DSP horsepower, big volume displacement - pretty much everything is subject to experimentation. I think I would start with your 50Hz lowpass on the Ava15 and no highpass on the auxillary subs. If you hear strain down low, then highpass them. Also, I would consider (since your EQ allows you to flatten it out pretty nicely) experimenting with running the Ava15 up to 80Hz or so, and overlapping with the SLS12's.

But the bottom line is, let your measurements and your ears/face/chest guide you, and don't be afraid to try setting that deviate from the conventional wisdom to see if they measure and/or sound better in your room. Because high-fidelity bass is very much a site-specific iterative process.

DS-21, most of the filters on my EQ are cuts rather than boost. I forgot to mention that graph are for sub + mains crossed at 80hz. Without the mains, I think the avalanche started to drop at around 70hz or so. I will definitely try a few of those combinations you mentioned to see which come out the best to my ears. Thanks for all the tips/advices.

I'll have to put off this project till next month. I'm heading to New Mexico for a lil mini vacation at Carlsbag Caverns.

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #27 of 47 Old 02-16-2011, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Yup. Just about anywhere I would think.

Cool. Thanks. I will look into.

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #28 of 47 Old 03-12-2011, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Update:

I have these two midbass subs completed a little more than a week ago. I just don't have enough time to play with them. I hooked them up and have about 1/2 hr of playing on them. It's an improvement on the midbass region. I did not really crank them up at all though. I hope I can have some time to mess around with them more... So far, I like them... I can feel the slam or the hit in the chest type of bass... I need to crank them up and take some measurements... Not bad at all for $330

Al,
LL
LL


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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post #29 of 47 Old 03-12-2011, 08:55 AM
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Very nice finish on that. Great job on the corner veneer sections!

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #30 of 47 Old 03-12-2011, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Very nice finish on that. Great job on the corner veneer sections!

Thanks... I don't think i can take the credit on the cabs.... those are from M&K cabs for their 12" subs.... I just have them cuz' they were giving them away for free... and I'm fairly close to them... so I picked them up and make use of them

Al,


"When the opponent expand, I contract,
When he contracts, I expand,
And when there is an opportunity,
I do not hit--it hits all by itself."
- Bruce Lee
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