Sealed: 18" TC Sounds LMS 5400 vs. Pro 5100 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Just depends on where they are in the continuum of excursion and power.

I don't know if the response would be as smooth either, that is if it is smooth now.

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post #92 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 07:56 AM
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We have to know what our Max SPL is to determine what our requirements are.

I believe two LMS5400s meet my SPL needs in my room but Im pushing more distortion low end on them during Max peaks (which Im okay with). That +3dB difference is definitely a close one for me.

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post #93 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 09:21 AM
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I think you guys are missing the point that the 5100 DOES NOT OFFER ANY SENSITIVITY GAINS OVER THE 5400 BELOW 80hz. There is no advantage to be had here, you will require just as much power and just as many amps. The disadvantage is that you cannot feed as much power to each driver. I push more power to my 5400s than a 5100 is rated for.

Again, Watt for Watt, output will be nearly identical up until about 80hz. Only at 100hz is a 3db sensitivity gain realized over the 5400.

Here is the graph with equal power to a 5100 and to a 5400.

http://i.imgur.com/aizTv.png

What benefit do you think running a 5100 will give you below 80hz? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just don't see it. You guys are living in a fantasy world if you think the 5100 is going to give you +3db in the ranges down low watt for watt.
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post #94 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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We got it, moved on to other topics as in using all available excursion.

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post #95 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I think you guys are missing the point that the 5100 DOES NOT OFFER ANY SENSITIVITY GAINS OVER THE 5400 BELOW 80hz. There is no advantage to be had here, you will require just as much power and just as many amps. The disadvantage is that you cannot feed as much power to each driver. I push more power to my 5400s than a 5100 is rated for.

Again, Watt for Watt, output will be nearly identical up until about 80hz. Only at 100hz is a 3db sensitivity gain realized over the 5400.

Here is the graph with equal power to a 5100 and to a 5400.

http://i.imgur.com/aizTv.png

What benefit do you think running a 5100 will give you below 80hz? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just don't see it. You guys are living in a fantasy world if you think the 5100 is going to give you +3db in the ranges down low watt for watt.



X2, I believe this is similar to what I said at the beginning, but was slightly misunderstood by some. Below 60~80hz they are near equal with equal power, I think the point I am trying to get across is the same as you but from a different angle. If you only plan to give the 5400 2kw or less anyway there is no gain or loss to go with the 5100, and it has an edge if you want to crossover higher than 60~80hz. If you have more than 2kw available the 5400 has the edge with 2db more displacement limited output capability on the low end. I have used both extensively and this is what I have found to be the case.

Please don’t read too much into; rated "Power handling", the Surround style, and the "pro" designation of the 5100 driver.

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post #96 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
If you want to call me delusional, perhaps you should adjust your tone. There's no need to get hostile or righteous in this thread. As for the crippling the lows comment, there was a bit of implied sarcasm there. Perhaps I should leave a note next time.
Whatever. If you get all clenched up when someone calls you on saying something stupid, it is a good idea to refrain from saying stupid things.

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The LMS 5400 will perform better under 80hz. There really isn't any arguing that. Why give up the 3db of headroom where subwoofers generally most need it?
Put down the computer-generated abstractions and look at simple reality.

Output down low is (excluding room issues) entirely a function of volume displacement. The 5100 has about 80 percent of the 5400's displacement. Assuming arguendo that the 5400 is significantly better at thermal management, that still means we're talking about maybe a 1dB difference down low. (I'm assuming the 5400's Le/Re is low enough that it doesn't have an inductive hump in the upper bass, making it a low-fidelity driver like most of TC's earlier super-long-throw drivers.)

I find it hard to conceive of a real-world situation in which anyone would even be able to tell a difference between these two drivers in a reasonably-sized sealed box, EQ'ed to the same transfer function.

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Each of my LMS 5400 woofers has 2500w of power to it.
Which is 125% of those woofers' rated powerhandling anyway, right?

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Why are you assuming I just picked these random crossover values without doing any testing first? Does it look like I just decided to pull random parts out of my ass and throw them together without any research?
Your posts in this thread don't exactly drip with rigorous logic and careful deliberation, so a reasonable person may well draw an inference of random choice.

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There is no need to stress my mains with low frequency content under 80hz when having 8 18s placed around the room with perfectly flat FR do the job much better. I've experimented with both, and I like it this way.
You may have noticed that I asked you how big your room was. 10000 cubes is huge. My entire condo is barely 40% bigger in volume than that (~1400 square feet, 12' average ceilings)! In a space that cavernous, the modal range is indeed lower in frequency than it is in a more typical domestic living room.

Even so, with 4 15's up front and 8 top-tier 18's, I don't imagine you'd be lacking SPL no matter how you wire them up. Furthermore, you wouldn't be "stress[ing] your mains" by feeding them LF content. Especially if they are, as they should be, sealed. Huge room, yes. But also more volume displacement down low than an IMAX system!

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The LMS 5400 driver will go 3db louder on average under 80hz as long as you have the power available for it. I don't have four circuits to my screen wall just because it was fun running the wire.
No, you did it because you must like paying outsized electrical bills and value brute force over efficient allocation of resources. Which is all quite fair enough, mind. It's your money.

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There's nothing wrong with the 5100. As I said before, choose the driver based on the application. Just look at the surrounds on the drivers. Which do you think is designed to handle the lower bass demands of HT?
Both have a claimed range of movement of over 30mm, so I see no reasonable grounds to view one surround as ipso facto inferior to the other for "the lower bass demands of HT."

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post #97 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
I think you guys are missing the point that the 5100 DOES NOT OFFER ANY SENSITIVITY GAINS OVER THE 5400 BELOW 80hz. There is no advantage to be had here, you will require just as much power and just as many amps.
On this point you are correct, though oddly under-inclusive. In a sealed cabinet of a given (reasonably small) size, pretty much every driver will have the same efficiency. The box determines the LF efficiency far more than the drive-unit does!!! So one could say the exact same words about the Maelstrom-X, or for that matter the B&C 18SW115.

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The disadvantage is that you cannot feed as much power to each driver. I push more power to my 5400s than a 5100 is rated for.
But then you follow up a correct statement with your amplifier power fetish. And you utterly neglect thermal compression, which of course becomes a larger factor at higher power levels.

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post #98 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 02:48 PM
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For your consumption...

5100 versus 5400 both in 110L sealed with a true 1w of constant power applied to each. 5100 is Gold. Hint: This is not a constant voltage efficiency but a constant power efficiency. IOW how hard is your amp working driving each for a given output. (There is a little more to it than that but it's close enough.) Forget about voltage sensitivity graphs guys...Efficiency does vary even in the same enclosure size. It is the voltage sensitivity that doesn't vary much. More efficient drivers might have similar spl looking solely at the voltage drive level but if you start looking at current demanded from the amp and more importantly total power there are differences. Note that the 5100 and 5400 have very similar BL^2/RE ratings. The differences below are due to the different suspension stiffnesses, resonances, which will move the placement of the impedance peak where efficiency is highest, but mostly the difference is due to the fact that the 5100 has much less moving mass. The 5400 is an easier load on the amp below 40hz but the 5100 is WAY easier on the amp above 40hz. Obviously thermal compression comes into this as well when one driver needs so much less power over a certain range. Obviously real program material is usually complex and not limited to a specific narrow bass range too.


EDIT: BTW manufacturer power handling ratings for drivers is one of the most complex stats to quantify well and one of the least useful. It depends so much on the loading of the driver and the material fed to it that it is basically a worthless spec in many cases IMHO.







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post #99 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 03:08 PM
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I have a 5100 on the way...more to follow. I'll put it in a sealed box, L/T it--any suggestions on ideal enclosure size? I have a CE4000 on 220V to power it, or a Face Audio 1200.
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post #100 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 03:09 PM
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Look forward to your thoughts on the 5100, Fatawan.

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post #101 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 03:31 PM
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Here's a quote from Kyle.

Quote:


The 5100 digs plenty low in a ported box, but the 5400 will edge it out at the cost of sensitivity. Up around 80Hz the 5100 is going to have the impact of three 5400's so that may be something to consider. Either woofer can live happy in 6-8 cubic feet vented, but the 5100 can't really be used in a sealed box with much low end impact - keep that woofer vented or with passives.

http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index...a-or-pro-5100/
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post #102 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Here's a quote from Kyle.



http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index...a-or-pro-5100/

Doesn't seem to model poorly in a sealed box, and Nathan has used it with good results in a sealed box. Maybe Kyle will chime in with more info.
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post #103 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Here's a quote from Kyle.



http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index...a-or-pro-5100/

Sorry but Kyle's post is completely meaningless in terms of low end with the respect to this discussion.

Ask Kyle what the max SPL of 8 5100s in a 4 cuft enclosures. Instead of finding useless banter how about we just stick to the numbers??

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post #104 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I think you guys are missing the point that the 5100 DOES NOT OFFER ANY SENSITIVITY GAINS OVER THE 5400 BELOW 80hz.

Im not sure I follow the 5100 is 94.5 dB for 1 Watt, the 5400 is 89.7 dB for 1 Watt. How can you say the 5100 does not offer any senstivity gains over the 5400?

Show me the models for both with 1000Watts?



Quote:


I push more power to my 5400s than a 5100 is rated for.

I will bet you that you never push remotely close to full power into your 8 5400s. If you have 32000Watts, what do you REALLY think you use during any movie???

So I will say that you would never push more power into your 5400s then what the 5100s will handle.

How about you just say you don't not mind spending $3K more for BIG amps and move on

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post #105 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 04:32 PM
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hummmm this thread is a real eye opener. The 5100 in most aspects, would seem to be the ideal choice if your not planning on maxing out your xmax on your subs or gettign multiples. Same money with less power requirement.

I know notnyt is defending his purchase and has every right to, it's a badass setup. Still would be interesting what the 5100's would do in the same room. Especially if your not using them to max potential, it would seem the added xmax of the 5400 would be wasted.

It looks to me like if you start adding a few multiples, it may be a better idea to go with the 5100. Same performance, less money on amps. I'd never would have even though that.

As far a pro drivers go, i think lots of people get hung up on the "pro" part. At least it seems the stigma about using pro stuff in a HT seems to be easing up as more and more pro systems are being build and used and the benefits are actually being seen/heard.

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post #106 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 04:40 PM
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It looks to me like if you start adding a few multiples, it may be a better idea to go with the 5100. Same performance, less money on amps. I'd never would have even though that.

I agree and its been a great discussion.

Quote:


As far a pro drivers go, i think lots of people get hung up on the "pro" part. At least it seems the stigma about using pro stuff in a HT seems to be easing up as more and more pro systems are being build and used and the benefits are actually being seen/heard.

I

I agree with this too. Generally its the Xmax with higher sensitivity drivers choices that will limit the low end response of those pro style drivers.

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post #107 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 04:45 PM
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what about the numbers for distortion? not that it can be heard anyways, but it seems like the 5400 will probably still take the cake in that department.
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post #108 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I will bet you that you never push remotely close to full power into your 8 5400s. If you have 32000Watts, what do you REALLY think you use during any movie???

So I will say that you would never push more power into your 5400s then what the 5100s will handle.

How about you just say you don't not mind spending $3K more for BIG amps and move on

So at full tilt, what would be the aspect of notnyt's system that would be encountered first? ...........with typical (whatever that is) ht material?

I say this because yesterday, I played a SACD track that had so much peak energy, I clipped my sub amp at a way, way low average level

1.) driver compression
2.) wall voltage/subsequent current
3.) amp power



IMO, 1, 2,.. and 3 would be program dependent

This wouldn't change with the 5100s would it? My point is even though the 5400s "handle" more, does that really impact things @ the LP with program material? I'd say it's a push, and only their tonality compression characteristics at their limits would differentiate the two.

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post #109 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

So at full tilt, what would be the aspect of notnyt's system that would be encountered first? ...........with typical (whatever that is) ht material?

I say this because yesterday, I played a SACD track that had so much peak energy, I clipped my sub amp at a way, way low average level

1.) driver compression
2.) wall voltage/subsequent current
3.) amp power



IMO, 1, 2,.. and 3 would be program dependent

This wouldn't change with the 5100s would it? My point is even though the 5400s "handle" more, does that really impact things @ the LP with program material? I'd say it's a push, and only their tonality compression characteristics at their limits would differentiate the two.

The amps and wall voltage pretty much run out at the same point. This happens before driver compression. There is a gain to be noticed with the 5100s above 60hz or so, but it isn't worth it as I can put out enough SPL in that range to physically hurt as it is. On my system, not speaking one driver to another, I have no issues with 60hz and up. I don't want to give up anything down low. As per Kyle, the 5100s will not perform as well there in a sealed enclosure. I think I'd go by what he's posted in this case

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An expert would recommend 8x5100 over 8x5400 if the head room on both is 30% more then what is used in room only because the $$$ saved from amp/circuit differences is in the thousands already.

Circuits were maybe an extra $100 in materials? Amps were about $650 a piece.


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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Im not sure I follow the 5100 is 94.5 dB for 1 Watt, the 5400 is 89.7 dB for 1 Watt. How can you say the 5100 does not offer any senstivity gains over the 5400?

Show me the models for both with 1000Watts?

I linked it in the thread you replied to. It definitely has a sensitivity bonus at upper frequencies, but down low it is irrelevant.

http://i.imgur.com/aizTv.png




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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I will bet you that you never push remotely close to full power into your 8 5400s. If you have 32000Watts, what do you REALLY think you use during any movie???

The clip lights say otherwise =]

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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

How about you just say you don't not mind spending $3K more for BIG amps and move on

It's an interesting discussion. I'm not trying to make it personal or anything. At $650 a piece the Marathons aren't so bad. People bringing electric bills into the discussion is hilarious though. I haven't seen any changes after switching to big amps. The amount of time that they're on and using that much power is trivial.

I'd love to see a head to head comparison between 5100s and 5400s. With 8 of them, you don't run into any compression or distortion, so it doesn't really matter which you go with. However, I am interested into how they would do pushed to the max with a smaller set of woofers. What kind of lunatic would run more than four of any of these in a room anyway? =]
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post #110 of 405 Old 03-18-2011, 05:23 PM
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What kind of lunatic would run more than four of any of these in a room anyway? =]

After hearing an Ultra in a HUGE room..............actually, I was thinking the same thing!
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post #111 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

hummmm this thread is a real eye opener. The 5100 in most aspects, would seem to be the ideal choice if your not planning on maxing out your xmax on your subs or gettign multiples. Same money with less power requirement.

The main "problem" with it is simply price. I don't think the question of whether one will be able to tell any difference between 8 TC 5400's and 8 TC 5100's in a room is that interesting. Why? Both of them are drivers with gobs of throw and presumably top-tier motors and suspensions. Moreover, either way you're talking about somewhere around 7000 USD in just drivers. (I assume PE will offer some quantity discount for purchases of 8 units upon request, though it's not on the website.)

What would be far more interesting to me is whether one would be able to tell any differences between a setup with those 8 $800 woofers, and a setup with 8 sealed B&C 18SW115's (a woofer that measured so well in Voice Coil that at first I did a double-take to make sure that was real-world data and not a simulation of an ideal) at a little bit more than half the price each.

Of, if one wants to use less EQ down low (and assuming Madisound has that many still in stock) eight Aura NS18's at probably around 6000 USD for the whole set. That would be interesting because it would compare two very different uses of the Aura NRT motor design.

Or for that matter 8 sealed Peavey Low Rider 18's at roughly a quarter the price of the TC setups (Don't laugh. That's a really good woofer regardless of price.)

The above all assumes EQ to equivalent FR.

For a single nearfield sub, or the ULF sub in a Geddes-style setup, the price of a single flagship TC driver is less daunting. If I didn't already have an Aura NS18, the TC 5100 would be at the top of my list for my nearfield/computer system subwoofer. But as a set of 8...that's a lot of cash. To put it in perspective, that's a JLC Reverso and a pair of Edward Greens made to order through their Top Drawer program!

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As far a pro drivers go, i think lots of people get hung up on the "pro" part. At least it seems the stigma about using pro stuff in a HT seems to be easing up as more and more pro systems are being build and used and the benefits are actually being seen/heard.

Agreed. Who cares about what marketing channel something goes through? If it works for one's application, it works. Full stop.

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post #112 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Damn!
Now this thread is going as I originally intended.

I am as confused as ever, but still intrigued by the 5100.

Thanks for the great debate guys.

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post #113 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by martiandancer316 View Post

what about the numbers for distortion? not that it can be heard anyways, but it seems like the 5400 will probably still take the cake in that department.

That's on my mind too.

However, like I said earlier, when not pushed to the limits it's most likely a moot point. That is why we run multiples...

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post #114 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post



It's an interesting discussion. I'm not trying to make it personal or anything. At $650 a piece the Marathons aren't so bad. People bringing electric bills into the discussion is hilarious though. I haven't seen any changes after switching to big amps. The amount of time that they're on and using that much power is trivial.

It's not the electric bills that are the concern, you are talking pennies to run things for a movie.

But, running circuits is not always an easy endeavor depending on walls and locations. (ala the cabin side of my house).

The electricity savings of sorts comes into play if one can get the same output for half the power and half the amps.
However, that does not appear to be the case here, at least I think.

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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


What would be far more interesting to me is whether one would be able to tell any differences between a setup with those 8 $800 woofers, and a setup with 8 sealed B&C 18SW115's (a woofer that measured so well in Voice Coil that at first I did a double-take to make sure that was real-world data and not a simulation of an ideal) at a little bit more than half the price each.

Or for that matter 8 sealed Peavey Low Rider 18's at roughly a quarter the price of the TC setups (Don't laugh. That's a really good woofer regardless of price.)

Maybe that is the better question altogether. If you have the space, cheaper low distortion drivers is probably the better option. No one would argue that the SQ is phenomenal with the LMS. Perhaps the B&C can be tested in the next round and see if it measures up (pun intended).

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post #115 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Im not sure I follow the 5100 is 94.5 dB for 1 Watt, the 5400 is 89.7 dB for 1 Watt. How can you say the 5100 does not offer any senstivity gains over the 5400?

Show me the models for both with 1000Watts?

This is what I can't seem to wrap my mind around. I realize that small sealed enclosure is the most inefficient.
But, all other things being equal I can understand why there would not be a large difference there.

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post #116 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

This is what I can't seem to wrap my mind around. I realize that small sealed enclosure is the most inefficient.
But, all other things being equal I can understand why there would not be a large difference there.

I agree. Down low, given the same 1kW amplifier, they should perform about the same. In the upper bass, the 5100 should have an advantage. With significantly more power, the 5400 should have an advantage down low. Especially if, like the Aura drivers on which it is based, the 5100 has a gently sloping BL(x) rather than a ruler-flat one.

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post #117 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 10:29 AM
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Since we are on the topic of multiples:
If we are talking multiples that are not being pushed to the limits of distortion, shouldn't the mal-x's have sounded the same or similar to the LMS's? With box sizes being ideal for both drivers? I mean you can't take a 3 CF box and throw both drivers in it and expect the mal-x to perform the same as the lms. I mean, ideal box sizes and power for each driver. Would it be audible?

I wish there was a better place to get the tc sounds stuff in Canada. CCS has them at $1500 a driver and I haven't been able to find them anywhere else at an even slightly reasonable price in Canada.

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post #118 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Since we are on the topic of multiples:
If we are talking multiples that are not being pushed to the limits of distortion, shouldn't the mal-x's have sounded the same or similar to the LMS's? With box sizes being ideal for both drivers? I mean you can't take a 3 CF box and throw both drivers in it and expect the mal-x to perform the same as the lms. I mean, ideal box sizes and power for each driver. Would it be audible?

That would be logical, but does not seem to be the case...or at least not what some have posted when doing A/B comparisons with other drivers.
However, maybe the results were based on pushing them hard.

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post #119 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

That would be logical, but does not seem to be the case...or at least not what some have posted when doing A/B comparisons with other drivers.
However, maybe the results were based on pushing them hard.

That's what has me very interested! I wish I would have never sold my old 5400 so I could do an A/B witht he mal-x, mach 5's and a few of the other driver I have lying around.
The one thing I notice about when people do A/B testing, is that the box size usually remains constant. The drivers are swapped or the same size box for both drivers is used. I guess if the boxes were both say 6CF and the LMS still had a SQ advantage without distortion, that would be mighty impressive!!

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post #120 of 405 Old 03-19-2011, 11:48 AM
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For me to get 30 amp circuits is going to cost amost $400 for two (I do not do electrical work myself, just like I do not cut my own lawn either ). I have EP2500s already but 4000W amps (like Marathon) are $650 or more a piece so thats $1300 vs $400 (Ep2500s cost me $200 each).

total cost different of a 2 x LMS 5400 vs 2 x LMS5100 system for me is $1300.

Above 20Hz Im never hitting close to 2x LMS5100 peak SPL.

So is the 3dB difference at 20Hz, 10Hz worth it? That is the $1300 question for me if I was to start a project now. In the end I still may buy 2 LMS5100s and run two off the Crest amp I have. I have to check if they have the same diameter for fitting in a box.

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