8x 18" LMS Ultra 5400s in 4 sealed enclosures - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 518 Old 02-22-2011, 07:00 PM
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Bosso, is notnyt gaining/losing anything by going with the array setup instead of an opposed setup? He is collocating his subs though.


Also I have talked with scott over at fi, he said to take a look at the Q series woofer and possibly upgrade to the high Qts and inductance ring.
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post #182 of 518 Old 02-22-2011, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

Bosso, is notnyt gaining/losing anything by going with the array setup instead of an opposed setup? He is collocating his subs though.


Also I have talked with scott over at fi, he said to take a look at the Q series woofer and possibly upgrade to the high Qts and inductance ring.

Dual opposed if great for eliminating applied forces onto the cabinet or in other words, vibration. Notnyt noted that it wasn't an issue for him though.

Btw, if you talk to Scott at Fi, find out what the final Qts would be on that Q series with those mods cause it won't say on the website but you can choose those as options. Would be good to know for modelling.

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post #183 of 518 Old 02-22-2011, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

Bosso, is notnyt gaining/losing anything by going with the array setup instead of an opposed setup? He is collocating his subs though.


Also I have talked with scott over at fi, he said to take a look at the Q series woofer and possibly upgrade to the high Qts and inductance ring.

I went with the array setup so I don't have to deal with any phase issues and also I didn't want to fire any drivers at my walls Dual opposed will provide less cabinet vibration, but these things are so heavy it's not really an issue.
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post #184 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I went with the array setup so I don't have to deal with any phase issues and also I didn't want to fire any drivers at my walls Dual opposed will provide less cabinet vibration, but these things are so heavy it's not really an issue.

Not only that but you do not have to drive them hard to get insane power. Less cabinet issues because the drivers are never going to be moving maybe even 1/2 Xmax

Awesome setup. Makes me want to buy more LMS5400 drivers. I have only 2 of them + 2 AV15X drivers in full range mains.

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post #185 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Not only that but you do not have to drive them hard to get insane power. Less cabinet issues because the drivers are never going to be moving maybe even 1/2 Xmax

Awesome setup. Makes me want to buy more LMS5400 drivers. I have only 2 of them + 2 AV15X drivers in full range mains.

They definitely move that far when playing really low stuff =]
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post #186 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

Bosso, is notnyt gaining/losing anything by going with the array setup instead of an opposed setup? He is collocating his subs though.


Also I have talked with scott over at fi, he said to take a look at the Q series woofer and possibly upgrade to the high Qts and inductance ring.

IMO, anyone who thinks 2-front-firing-LMS-18s pumping at 3" peak-to-peak won't rock a box is kidding himself, the weight of the box notwithstanding. As to how much that affects performance vs other choices, no one I'm aware of has explored different configurations to extract maximum in-room performance from the LMS drivers.

I prefer to use configuration and the room to get maximum performance from considerably less expensive, shorter throw drivers, in boxes of less weight and size.

The bottom line here is that using 8-18s makes most of the discussion moot. What notnyt (or anyone else) might be losing in maximum performance, he's more than making up in using that much displacement in big boxes.

For example, there was a comment further back regarding 120dB @ 10 Hz being "reference level". It's not. There is no source I'm aware of that requires 120dB @ 10 Hz @ reference level. More like -10dB below that.

notnyt has 20 times more than he needs at 10 Hz (and 40 times more than the THTs with magnitudes less THD).

I'm with Penn regarding Fi offering a higher Qts driver, but not stating what the Qts is. But, the bottom line for me is the increase in mounting depth of Fi's longer throw drivers (& the LMS, et al), reduces options for box shape vs other choices when designing dual opposed subs.

I once asked Scott what the inductance ring actually translates to in FR above 70 Hz. He let the other guy (forget his name) answer my e-mail, who asked why I cared what happens above 70 Hz because HE crosses his home subs at 50 Hz.

His credibility dropped a few notches with that answer, and he never answered the question, so I have no comment on the addition of the "inductance ring".

Bosso
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post #187 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

IMO, anyone who thinks 2-front-firing-LMS-18s pumping at 3" peak-to-peak won't rock a box is kidding himself, the weight of the box notwithstanding. As to how much that affects performance vs other choices, no one I'm aware of has explored different configurations to extract maximum in-room performance from the LMS drivers.

I prefer to use configuration and the room to get maximum performance from considerably less expensive, shorter throw drivers, in boxes of less weight and size.

The bottom line here is that using 8-18s makes most of the discussion moot. What notnyt (or anyone else) might be losing in maximum performance, he's more than making up in using that much displacement in big boxes.

For example, there was a comment further back regarding 120dB @ 10 Hz being "reference level". It's not. There is no source I'm aware of that requires 120dB @ 10 Hz @ reference level. More like -10dB below that.

notnyt has 20 times more than he needs at 10 Hz (and 40 times more than the THTs with magnitudes less THD).

I'm with Penn regarding Fi offering a higher Qts driver, but not stating what the Qts is. But, the bottom line for me is the increase in mounting depth of Fi's longer throw drivers (& the LMS, et al), reduces options for box shape vs other choices when designing dual opposed subs.

I once asked Scott what the inductance ring actually translates to in FR above 70 Hz. He let the other guy (forget his name) answer my e-mail, who asked why I cared what happens above 70 Hz because HE crosses his home subs at 50 Hz.

His credibility dropped a few notches with that answer, and he never answered the question, so I have no comment on the addition of the "inductance ring".

Bosso

I agree except he is not using enough power to run those drivers at full tilt so the cabinets probably are not moving. I remember you stating one time how headroom is over rated once you achieve playback with low distortion and full bandwidth which I would hate to admit agree with. My small room can use 2 subs and achieve reference levels with no problems but I like how it sounds 10 db's hot so rather than just turning it up and increasing the distortion I just buy more subs and use the natural gain of the subs without touching the lfe channel or MV.
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post #188 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I once asked Scott what the inductance ring actually translates to in FR above 70 Hz. He let the other guy (forget his name) answer my e-mail, who asked why I cared what happens above 70 Hz because HE crosses his home subs at 50 Hz.

His credibility dropped a few notches with that answer, and he never answered the question, so I have no comment on the addition of the "inductance ring".

Bosso

Great Answer....

I guess his "other guy" will be the only one using those subs...?
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post #189 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm actually running one amp per enclosure now. If I run a 10hz sine wave through them at max level, the movement at the top of the cabinet is ~1mm.

These things don't really move under normal usage.

I also noticed the LMS are cleaner as frequency increases as opposed to the maelstroms. Is that related to the shorting ring?
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post #190 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


I'm with Penn regarding Fi offering a higher Qts driver, but not stating what the Qts is. But, the bottom line for me is the increase in mounting depth of Fi's longer throw drivers (& the LMS, et al), reduces options for box shape vs other choices when designing dual opposed subs.

I once asked Scott what the inductance ring actually translates to in FR above 70 Hz. He let the other guy (forget his name) answer my e-mail, who asked why I cared what happens above 70 Hz because HE crosses his home subs at 50 Hz.

His credibility dropped a few notches with that answer, and he never answered the question, so I have no comment on the addition of the "inductance ring".

Bosso

You mean, 'me', right? Heheh. Just playin'. Yeah, I feel the same way and have never had much credibility for Fi anyway. They always seemed.... ehhh. Not that great. Good for a first sub or something but... ehh, yeah. That picture of their shipping box posted a couple weeks back hasn't gained any extra confidence in them either.


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Great Answer....

I guess his "other guy" will be the only one using those subs...?

Lolz! Maybe he runs TC 5400's so just doesn't care.

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post #191 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 11:33 AM
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"IMO, anyone who thinks 2-front-firing-LMS-18s pumping at 3" peak-to-peak won't rock a box is kidding himself, the weight of the box notwithstanding. As to how much that affects performance vs other choices, no one I'm aware of has explored different configurations to extract maximum in-room performance from the LMS drivers."

ok, let's assume it vibrates. the question is what is the effect. it depends on how heavy the enclosures are as to how much energy will be lost to vibration. if the cabs were floating in the air, it would seem the energy lost to vibration would be no more than (mms of the drivers) / (total weight of the cabs including the drives). the mms of two lms drives is around 2 pounds. the weight of the cabs, i forget. let's say it is 150 pounds. that would be 1.3% power loss to vibration, no?? with one end planted on the ground, the loss would be less than that. i'm not seeing cabinet vibration as a significant source of power loss. maybe it will contribute to distortion, but that will show in distortion measurements.

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post #192 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 11:43 AM
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I have two 15" Rythmiks front-firing in one enclosure. I was doing some testing the other day and at louder levels, they will physically get the box rocking back and forth starting at 10Hz or so.
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post #193 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I also noticed the LMS are cleaner as frequency increases as opposed to the maelstroms. Is that related to the shorting ring?

Rings. ( plural )

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post #194 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 11:57 AM
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I had a single LMS in a sealed test box and the whole box moved back a few inches until the enclosure was against the wall. It had rubber feet on the bottom but the force of the LMS still pushed the box back. Now I have enclosure that's twice the weight with real sticky rubber feet, gonna have to check and see if it's moved at all.

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post #195 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 12:08 PM
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No question that the LMS will move around a lesser weighted box, but for the most part, they tend to walk backwards - not forwards, I honestly don't see a problem with the weight of notnyt's boxes being an issue what so ever, much less are the going to go any further then the wall, but its clear from what he stated they don't really move at all... Plus on top of that - he doesn't really need to push them all that hard as some normal type person that has far fewer of these drivers....

I'll have to be watching my new funky box, but that room is so small I doubt the driver will be doing much work at all...

You want to see some serious box movement ?!?!?
Push the XXX to full roar in a 6^3 box w/4000w.... that thing was like a jumping bean... all over the place....
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post #196 of 518 Old 02-23-2011, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

You want to see some serious box movement ?!?!?
Push the XXX to full roar in a 6^3 box w/4000w.... that thing was like a jumping bean... all over the place....

No doubt.


Bosso,
That would be Nick. Scott is great to deal with but is too busy to get a hold of usually. Nick talks to everyone like they are a kid trying to get a ported 18 in the back of their mustang. I have tried to ask him some questions about their drivers and configurations before and he answered me roughly the same way, which is like you are dumb.
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post #197 of 518 Old 02-24-2011, 04:04 PM
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so notnyt,


What is the difference between 5 and 10hz, now that you have a capable system that can do 5hz.


I've never experienced 5hz playback but it seems like it feels like it would be like 10hz with a higher spl.
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post #198 of 518 Old 02-24-2011, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I'm with Penn regarding Fi offering a higher Qts driver, but not stating what the Qts is. But, the bottom line for me is the increase in mounting depth of Fi's longer throw drivers (& the LMS, et al), reduces options for box shape vs other choices when designing dual opposed subs.

I once asked Scott what the inductance ring actually translates to in FR above 70 Hz. He let the other guy (forget his name) answer my e-mail, who asked why I cared what happens above 70 Hz because HE crosses his home subs at 50 Hz.

His credibility dropped a few notches with that answer, and he never answered the question, so I have no comment on the addition of the "inductance ring".

Bosso

"The Other Guy" is Nick, Nick is a dick. Nick is an *******. Nick almost never answers questions with a genuine answer but usually insults your question. I wouldn't say "Scott let" him answer, Scott had to hire him to answer questions several years ago as he is super busy and had trouble keeping up with tyhe high volume. Within the last few months he has hired yet another person help with the email inquery load, Nicole, but I do wonder if this Nicole is actually Nick in dis... no I don't, he couldn't even attempt to be as courtious as she has been with me on more than one occasion.

I have gotten one really good and informative email from nick and one really good post on a thread on SSA. Scott on the other hand gives me inside trade secrets and more critical information than I will ever fully understand. Scott is a great guy and I think he handles business quite well.
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post #199 of 518 Old 02-24-2011, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

No doubt.


Bosso,
That would be Nick. Scott is great to deal with but is too busy to get a hold of usually. Nick talks to everyone like they are a kid trying to get a ported 18 in the back of their mustang. I have tried to ask him some questions about their drivers and configurations before and he answered me roughly the same way, which is like you are dumb.

Missed this, but glad to see I'm not the only one. I thought Nick was taking my IB3 situaltions personally. Last we talked, he was blaming me for uncounted phone calls from people trying to do with the IB3s that I do, and said I am specifically the reason IB3s were cut from the Fi linup. He was nicer about it than he usually is with me.
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post #200 of 518 Old 02-25-2011, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

so notnyt,


What is the difference between 5 and 10hz, now that you have a capable system that can do 5hz.


I've never experienced 5hz playback but it seems like it feels like it would be like 10hz with a higher spl.

It's like 10hz, but half as often

I have 5 MA-5050 amps now. Unfortunately, one is dead and I still haven't heard back from Marathon. Does anyone have any good contact info for them? I'm giving them some time before calling the number on their whois listing and on other documents.

I'm waiting for packages from PE and Monoprice (wire and stuff) so I can get the other two amps running. I also have four more replacement fans on the way.

I rewired the necessary outlets to take 20p plugs, so that I can plug in my 20a PDUs. I have all the stuff to build my relay boxes on hand, except some of the wire that I'm waiting for to be delivered. I should be live with these next week if nothing else breaks or gets screwed up.
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post #201 of 518 Old 02-25-2011, 02:29 PM
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I know this seems lame, but its worth a try....

Marathons Facebook Page.... nothin like problems in the public eye.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/MARATHON/257592880006

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info@marathonpro.com
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post #202 of 518 Old 02-25-2011, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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post #203 of 518 Old 02-26-2011, 01:51 AM
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I also have four more replacement fans on the way.

Hello

Can you make a guide on how to replace the fans with description and some pitures, please?

Thanks
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post #204 of 518 Old 02-26-2011, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Hello

Can you make a guide on how to replace the fans with description and some pitures, please?

Thanks

No need really. Open up the top of the case to get to everything. On the bottom there are 4 screws for each fan bracket (metal piece that mounts to bottom of fan to hold it in place).

Unscrew the brackets, lift the fans out, remove them from the bracket, and cut the red/black wires going to the fan wherever you feel comfortable splicing the new wires in.

Each amp will take two Scythe Slip Stream SY1225SL12M. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000W7NGWK

They have three wires. The yellow is a speed wire, you don't need to use it. Just splice the red to the red, and the black to the black. You can mount the fan back on the brackets making sure the direction is pushing the air over the heatsinks. Mount the fan on the side of the bracket closest to the heatsink then reinstall the bracket onto the bottom of the amp.

It shouldn't take to long. Make sure to splice well and insulate everything you do. This will void your warranty, but shouldn't do any damage to your amps. I cranked 10hz sine waves through these things at 2ohms at full power and they barely got warm. They're very beefy and well designed, but don't come crying to me if it doesn't work out for you (standard disclaimer).
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post #205 of 518 Old 02-26-2011, 08:39 AM
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Thanks

I will give it a try.
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post #206 of 518 Old 02-27-2011, 02:03 AM - Thread Starter
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All my relay boxes are built and running. I'm just waiting on more speaker wire and the fans to come in.
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post #207 of 518 Old 02-27-2011, 10:14 AM
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All my relay boxes are built and running. I'm just waiting on more speaker wire and the fans to come in.

What are the relay boxes used for? I'm new at this.

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post #208 of 518 Old 02-27-2011, 10:25 AM
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Relays for 12v triggers to power on pro audio amps.

I am looking for a 12v delay, any suggestions NotNyt ?
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post #209 of 518 Old 02-27-2011, 10:27 AM
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Got it. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ight=relay+box

Should've searched first.

My way is a simple one. I leave all the amps on and when I'm done, I close the breakers. The HT has 8 circuits. 4 X 15amp and 4 X 20amp.

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post #210 of 518 Old 02-27-2011, 10:29 AM
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