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post #91 of 130 Old 07-23-2012, 03:09 PM
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How are the tens and twelves implemented? What range do they cover?
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post #92 of 130 Old 07-23-2012, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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How are the tens and twelves implemented? What range do they cover?
They are both dual opposed. 80Hz and down for their range. I need to measure to determine if this should change a little but so far its working well like this.

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post #93 of 130 Old 09-19-2013, 12:42 PM
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post #94 of 130 Old 09-20-2013, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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It's going to take a while to get my other pair of TD18s in the mix as my buddy I build the cabs with just had a back operation. Good news is he had the same surgeon I did. Hence, why I don't build them on my own tongue.gif

However, when I do finish them it will be an even more complete wall of speakers! biggrin.gif

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post #95 of 130 Old 09-20-2013, 07:07 PM
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Holy crap! eek.gif
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post #96 of 130 Old 09-20-2013, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

It's going to take a while to get my other pair of TD18s in the mix
....it will be an even more complete wall of speakers! biggrin.gif

A proper TD18 center channel. Finally.

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post #97 of 130 Old 09-21-2013, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

It's going to take a while to get my other pair of TD18s in the mix as my buddy I build the cabs with just had a back operation. Good news is he had the same surgeon I did. Hence, why I don't build them on my own tongue.gif

However, when I do finish them it will be an even more complete wall of speakers! biggrin.gif

Are you using these TD18h drivers for subwoofer duty, or mid-bass duty? I wonder how these TD18's would compare to a JBL-2226?
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post #98 of 130 Old 09-21-2013, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Are you using these TD18h drivers for subwoofer duty, or mid-bass duty? I wonder how these TD18's would compare to a JBL-2226?

At the moment they are on sub duties and doing fine. I had them as mid bass, ported, (30 - 300+) in the previous configuration. I will be going back to this in the next iteration when I have 4 of them in the mix. They will be sealed running 25 to 300Hz. To make the most of this driver you can use them over a wider range. To Scott's post, the next set up is going to be pretty outrageous but that's what this hobby is all about. I plan to have 12 drivers doing bass duties. biggrin.gif

I have compared them to Eminence and Peavey and the AE TD18 wins hands down. I know of a few folks who have switched from JBL to AE and they never looked back.

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post #99 of 130 Old 09-22-2013, 06:26 AM
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How does that TD18 or the TD15 compare to the JBL-2226 when used for mid-bass duties? How much does the TD18 and TD15 cost?
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post #100 of 130 Old 09-22-2013, 08:52 AM
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better.

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post #101 of 130 Old 09-22-2013, 04:03 PM
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"dual opposed MaelX 18s"


that zeppelin crashed and burned. brought down by a chinese missile, i think.

It was a DF-21D ballistic missile, aka the carrier killer. This event still sucks as the Mal-X was a great affordable driver.

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post #102 of 130 Old 09-23-2013, 05:00 AM
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Wow, those AE woofers are super expensive, especially the 18" versions. If they are better than a 2226 then I would absolutely love to have 3 of the TD18's for mid-bass duties, unfortunately there is no way that I could ever afford those prices.
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post #103 of 130 Old 09-23-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Wow, those AE woofers are super expensive, especially the 18" versions. If they are better than a 2226 then I would absolutely love to have 3 of the TD18's for mid-bass duties, unfortunately there is no way that I could ever afford those prices.
They're priced approximately for what you're getting.

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post #104 of 130 Old 09-23-2013, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Wow, those AE woofers are super expensive, especially the 18" versions. If they are better than a 2226 then I would absolutely love to have 3 of the TD18's for mid-bass duties, unfortunately there is no way that I could ever afford those prices.

I don't see the 2226 as being in the same league. The better comparison is the 2265HPL Differential Drive 15" and that retails for more than the TD18. The AE drivers are the best value speakers out there in terms of function and build but not the cheapest.

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post #105 of 130 Old 09-23-2013, 04:51 PM
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The JBL driver that is most comparable to the TD18H+ is the 2246H. It is the only one that takes advantage of a shorting ring to lower inductance. It has a single small ring at the middle of the gap instead of a fully sleeved pole like the TD18H+. The JBL also has only 9mm Xmax vs 14mm Xmax of the TD18H+. The other driver people are often upgrading from is the TAD TL-1801 which has no shorting rings and only 7.5mm Xmax. The low, linear inductance and much higher Xmax makes the TD18H+ a great upgrade in applications where the 2246H or TL-1801 were previously was used. When looking at comparable drivers the TD18H+ is an amazing value and many cannot figure why the price is so low. See the prices on the two comparable drivers here:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-485

http://www.proaudiodesign.com/TAD-TL-1801.html

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post #106 of 130 Old 09-23-2013, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

The JBL driver that is most comparable to the TD18H+ is the 2246H. It is the only one that takes advantage of a shorting ring to lower inductance. It has a single small ring at the middle of the gap instead of a fully sleeved pole like the TD18H+. The JBL also has only 9mm Xmax vs 14mm Xmax of the TD18H+. The other driver people are often upgrading from is the TAD TL-1801 which has no shorting rings and only 7.5mm Xmax. The low, linear inductance and much higher Xmax makes the TD18H+ a great upgrade in applications where the 2246H or TL-1801 were previously was used. When looking at comparable drivers the TD18H+ is an amazing value and many cannot figure why the price is so low. See the prices on the two comparable drivers here:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-485

http://www.proaudiodesign.com/TAD-TL-1801.html

Damn right! John, I hope you can figure out what is going on with Ricci's TD18's so we can get them fully tested on DB.

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post #107 of 130 Old 09-23-2013, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

The JBL driver that is most comparable to the TD18H+ is the 2246H. It is the only one that takes advantage of a shorting ring to lower inductance. It has a single small ring at the middle of the gap instead of a fully sleeved pole like the TD18H+. The JBL also has only 9mm Xmax vs 14mm Xmax of the TD18H+. The other driver people are often upgrading from is the TAD TL-1801 which has no shorting rings and only 7.5mm Xmax. The low, linear inductance and much higher Xmax makes the TD18H+ a great upgrade in applications where the 2246H or TL-1801 were previously was used. When looking at comparable drivers the TD18H+ is an amazing value and many cannot figure why the price is so low. See the prices on the two comparable drivers here:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-485

http://www.proaudiodesign.com/TAD-TL-1801.html

I did not mean to imply that the TD18's were not worth their asking price, as they very well maybe, and from what others are saying, it seems like they are. I was just saying that there is no way that I can afford to purchase these. I truely wish that I could as I would love to see how they perform for dedicated midbass duty in their own cabinets under my Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 book shelf speakers.

Something that I am not clear on with regards to the TD18h woofers is how do they differ in terms of sound quality in a 2-way or 3-way setup compared to using something like a Seas L18, or W16, or perhaps a Scan Speak 18W? Both the Seas and the Scan Speak will easily go down to 60hz in the right enclosure, and I believe that they will go up as high as the TD18.....so what is to be gained with a pro-woofer, such as the TD18h or TD15, over the Seas or Scan Speak? Not trying to be snotty as I am genuinely curious about this.
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post #108 of 130 Old 09-23-2013, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

The JBL driver that is most comparable to the TD18H+ is the 2246H. It is the only one that takes advantage of a shorting ring to lower inductance. It has a single small ring at the middle of the gap instead of a fully sleeved pole like the TD18H+. The JBL also has only 9mm Xmax vs 14mm Xmax of the TD18H+. The other driver people are often upgrading from is the TAD TL-1801 which has no shorting rings and only 7.5mm Xmax. The low, linear inductance and much higher Xmax makes the TD18H+ a great upgrade in applications where the 2246H or TL-1801 were previously was used. When looking at comparable drivers the TD18H+ is an amazing value and many cannot figure why the price is so low. See the prices on the two comparable drivers here:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-485

http://www.proaudiodesign.com/TAD-TL-1801.html

John,

I don't think any knowledgeable individual would say that your drivers aren't worth the asking price, but we must be honest about the JBL and TAD drivers. JBL got out of the DIY business years ago and raised the prices of their drivers to an ultra premium level. The technology is solid, but they are overpriced (same as the TAD drivers). We DIY'ers are such a small market that missing a few sales from us doesn't register with them. You are filling a gap in the market, and I think that most of hope you can succeed long-term.
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post #109 of 130 Old 09-24-2013, 12:40 AM
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"Something that I am not clear on with regards to the TD18h woofers is how do they differ in terms of sound quality in a 2-way or 3-way setup compared to using something like a Seas L18, or W16, or perhaps a Scan Speak 18W? Both the Seas and the Scan Speak will easily go down to 60hz in the right enclosure, and I believe that they will go up as high as the TD18.....so what is to be gained with a pro-woofer, such as the TD18h or TD15, over the Seas or Scan Speak? Not trying to be snotty as I am genuinely curious about this."

those little guys are actually quite nice. but they are limited in what they can do, so you would need a proportionally large number of them to make a valid comparison and then the price would get ridiculous. for example, to get the same sd, you'd need about 10 seas L18 and for the same volume displaced, you'd need something like 20 of them compared to a single td18h+. not saying that it couldn't be done or that it wouldn't be great...it would.

the next closest thing in the market to the td18h+ is probably the 18sounds 18lw2400 or the b&c 18tbx100. the 2242 price is no longer competitive.

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post #110 of 130 Old 09-24-2013, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Something that I am not clear on with regards to the TD18h woofers is how do they differ in terms of sound quality in a 2-way or 3-way setup compared to using something like a Seas L18, or W16, or perhaps a Scan Speak 18W?

I cant vouch for Scan Speak, but IMHO the AE drivers deliver better mid bass and midrange compared to the Seas drivers you mention. I also think AE is better than the current PHL driver I use. None of this is based of measurements as the Seas, PHL, and AE systems I have spent a good amount of time with measure relatively similar. I just found the AE drivers to deliver better mid bass detail. ....just my 2 cents

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post #111 of 130 Old 09-24-2013, 03:47 AM
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Thanks for the replys gentlemen! So basically what it comes down to when comparing the TD18's or TD15's to the Seas L18, Scan Speak 18W, or Scan Speak Revelator, is that they will have more SPL in the lower and upper mid-bass & mid-range frequencies and give you a more "kick you in the chest" type of feeling? I can't help but wonder how the actual sound quality between the two would compare.

I am in the process of doing a speaker build that was on the Zaph Audio website, and it uses some of the Scan Speak drivers. I have also been planning on building some Seos-15's when they become available to use at my fiances' apartment. I wish that I could afford to buy some of the TD15's to use in the Seos-15 build, and also some TD18h's to use in dedicated mid-bass cabinets that will be placed under each of my LCR Sieraa-1s.

Unfortunately, I can not afrord the AE drivers, so for the Seos and midbass cabinet build I plan to use the JBL2226. Anyway, good discussion guys!
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post #112 of 130 Old 09-24-2013, 05:04 AM
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The 18 Sounds LW2400 is a lot cheaper for me compared to the AE TD18H. I can actually get the next high end model up and still be slightly cheaper than AE. BUT I think the AE could still be used higher than any of the 18 Sound 18" drivers regardless of price. Although I am not intimate with all the 18 Sound drivers so I could be wrong. I still have to wait till beginning of next year for my 9600C's.
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post #113 of 130 Old 09-24-2013, 08:38 AM
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there is also the b&c 18sw115 floating around as a close price competitor.

not aware of any 18" drivers with as good of inductance control though.

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post #114 of 130 Old 09-24-2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Something that I am not clear on with regards to the TD18h woofers is how do they differ in terms of sound quality in a 2-way or 3-way setup compared to using something like a Seas L18, or W16, or perhaps a Scan Speak 18W? Both the Seas and the Scan Speak will easily go down to 60hz in the right enclosure, and I believe that they will go up as high as the TD18.....so what is to be gained with a pro-woofer, such as the TD18h or TD15, over the Seas or Scan Speak? Not trying to be snotty as I am genuinely curious about this.

The comparison really isn't a realistic one as you will see. As mentioned you would need a ton of the L18 to equal the output of a single TD18H+. A total of 23 of them to get the same low end displacement. If you didn't need the low end output and are just talking about upper end, the other difference is efficiency. 98db vs 87dB mean the single L18 needs over 10x the power to get to the same output as the TD18H+. A driver with 1/10 the power handling that needs 10x the power to reach the same level is not realistic. You are also comparing one driver with inductance control and one that does not have any.

A more realistic comparison if we are talking about midrange/midbass is the Seas Excel 10" or Scan Speak Revelator 10" vs a similarly sized TD10H. Both have shorting rings to bring down inductance and lower distortion. The Revelator shorting ring is much more effective due to placement, bringing down Le to .3mh while the Excel still has an Le of 1.43mH. There are other significant differences though. The motor strength of the TD10H is far more. Bl^2/Re is 64 in the TD10H compared to 16.47 in the Revelator and 17.26 in the Excel. This makes the TD10H 2-3dB more efficient so it will take less power to get loud and work in a smaller enclosure as well.

The biggest difference though is in displacement. The Excel has 7mm Xmax while the Revelator has 9mm. The TD10H however has 14mm Xmax and 20mm of suspension travel. It will take 2 of the Excel or 1.6 of the Revelators to equal the low end output of one TD10H. The TD10H has a real power handling 2-3x higher than either of those drivers as well. Then consider both of those drivers are already about $100 more.

Other drivers in the same general class as the TD10H would be the Audiotechnology Flexunits, ATC, Dynaudio, Morel Ultimate, Focal, etc which are all significantly higher, have less power handling, less Xmax, and do not have the low, linear inductance of the TD10H.
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I don't think any knowledgeable individual would say that your drivers aren't worth the asking price, but we must be honest about the JBL and TAD drivers. JBL got out of the DIY business years ago and raised the prices of their drivers to an ultra premium level. The technology is solid, but they are overpriced (same as the TAD drivers). We DIY'ers are such a small market that missing a few sales from us doesn't register with them. You are filling a gap in the market, and I think that most of hope you can succeed long-term.

See the above part regarding all the other available DIY drivers out there. Whether it is these companies or the pro companies, there is one huge difference. I build the drivers and sell them direct. The other companies sell through standard distribution channels. Each step along the way of regional/national sales reps, wholesaling, warehousing, retail, etc is getting a portion of the overall sale which bumps up the cost to the end user. Not to mention the money spent on advertising. The raw parts cost in the TD18H+ before I spend a minute assembling one is already higher than the cost that these drivers are sold to the wholesalers. I would rather put the money into quality components and sell directly to the end user so they receive the benefit of a better product.

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the next closest thing in the market to the td18h+ is probably the 18sounds 18lw2400 or the b&c 18tbx100. the 2242 price is no longer competitive.

It depends on the basis of comparison if this is realistic or not. Cost wise they are less but these drivers both have only 9mm and 9.5mm Xmax vs 14mm Xmax of the TD18. The B&C has nothing in terms of impedance compensation or inductance control and has 4x the inductance. The 18sound has over 3x the inductance of the TD18H+ . While the demodulating rings help to reduce distortion some, nothing works like the full sleeve of copper over the entire pole to force the coil to act as an aircore inductor over the full travel. While many consider this to be out of band, the 18Sound has a massive breakup from the dustcap about 1.6KHz as does the B&C. If using for pure subwoofer duty, it may not be an issue. If using the driver up to 300hz in a 3way system, that places the 5th harmonic right about that point. Higher, odd order harmonics are very audible and much related to inductance. While price wise those drivers may be less, you need multiples to equal the output capability of the TD18H+. In terms of clean output they also don't compare directly.

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I cant vouch for Scan Speak, but IMHO the AE drivers deliver better mid bass and midrange compared to the Seas drivers you mention. I also think AE is better than the current PHL driver I use. None of this is based of measurements as the Seas, PHL, and AE systems I have spent a good amount of time with measure relatively similar. I just found the AE drivers to deliver better mid bass detail. ....just my 2 cents

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Thanks for the replys gentlemen! So basically what it comes down to when comparing the TD18's or TD15's to the Seas L18, Scan Speak 18W, or Scan Speak Revelator, is that they will have more SPL in the lower and upper mid-bass & mid-range frequencies and give you a more "kick you in the chest" type of feeling? I can't help but wonder how the actual sound quality between the two would compare.

I am in the process of doing a speaker build that was on the Zaph Audio website, and it uses some of the Scan Speak drivers. I have also been planning on building some Seos-15's when they become available to use at my fiances' apartment. I wish that I could afford to buy some of the TD15's to use in the Seos-15 build, and also some TD18h's to use in dedicated mid-bass cabinets that will be placed under each of my LCR Sieraa-1s.

Unfortunately, I can not afrord the AE drivers, so for the Seos and midbass cabinet build I plan to use the JBL2226. Anyway, good discussion guys!

There always tends to be discussion about the "sound" of a woofer. A good woofer shouldn't really have a sound to itself. Many woofers can be considered "smooth" because the top end rolls off. Or they are considered to punch or kick hard because the inductance creates a bump that exaggerates somewhere in the 50-100hz range. They are considered to cut or be bright because they breakup around 3KHz. Characteristics like that IMO are not good. A woofer should be able to most accurately reproduce what is input to it without changing the sound at all. Those characteristics are things put into the sound by the musician when it is made. You want to be able to hear things as they intended, not add the same brightness or smoothness to everything you listen to.

The real basis for comparison would be to play a given waveform through the speakers and record it. Then compare the recorded wave to the original. The woofer that has the most linearity in terms of Bl and Le will best be able to recreate this waveform. Le(x) and Le(i) distortion will physically put the VC in the wrong position which greatly distorts the waveform. You can see in this FEA analysis with and without the aluminum shorting ring on the OD of the coil how the eddy currents affect the flux near the gap. Without the shorting ring, there is a lot of flux modulation around the gap on both sides. The shorting ring removes all of it at this position.



The main issue is that this flux modulation affects the position of the VC. The following graph shows the curve with the shorting ring and without the shorting ring in red. This is not an optimized shorting ring, but you can clearly see that the coil is in a different position with and without the coil.



If you want to accurately reproduce a signal, the coil has to be in the right place at the right time. If it isn't, it is reproducing something else. Slower continual tones like sine waves are less effected. Quick transients are much more critical in terms of VC position with respect to time. When you play both at the same time is when it gets really messy. I have done the comparison with a TD woofer with and without the copper sleeve on the pole. There is a world of difference in terms of being able to reproduce a hit on a kick drum, snare hits, slap bass, or striking keys on a keyboard.

I realize that a used 2226H may be able to be picked up cheaper. I've had many people offer to sell them to me or ask me to find homes for theirs after upgrading to TD15's. A used driver you don't necessarily know how it was used though. You don't necessarily know what parts were put in to a reconed woofer either. Just be aware of those things. There are very few TD woofers that end up on the used market. If an issue does arise that is not covered under the 3yr warranty, a factory done recone here is $75 plus parts. Typically about $125 total.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

The 18 Sounds LW2400 is a lot cheaper for me compared to the AE TD18H. I can actually get the next high end model up and still be slightly cheaper than AE. BUT I think the AE could still be used higher than any of the 18 Sound 18" drivers regardless of price. Although I am not intimate with all the 18 Sound drivers so I could be wrong. I still have to wait till beginning of next year for my 9600C's.

The 18sound LW9601 is a fairly comparable driver because it does have the 14mm Xmax. The issue is inductance is 2.1mH and the efficiency is only 94.6dB. Also look at the response curve. Inductance causes the dip centerd around 800hz, then the duscap breakup at 1.6KHz is there.

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

there is also the b&c 18sw115 floating around as a close price competitor.

not aware of any 18" drivers with as good of inductance control though.

Price wise that is a good comparison. Xmax is 14mm making it comparable too. As you mention though, inductance is almost 5x as high and without the linearity.

With any comparison you need to make sure you are comparing something similar. Between 18" drivers most all will model with similar response curves on the low end. The pro style 18's are designed most typically for 6-8cf front loaded vented enclosures. The TD18H+ and B&C 18TBX100 model nearly identically below 60hz. The 18sound, BMS, EV, JBL, RCF, etc all have similar response curves in that range so they can be compared on that basis. Power ratings are mostly similar as well. In terms of output, these are almost always excursion limited in their applications, not thermally limited. There are a lot of drivers in the lower Xmax range of 6mm - 9.5mm. These can be found cheaper, but if you need the lower end output aren't really a good option. There are only a handful of options with 14mm or Xmax, and none are less than the TD18H+.

Look at everything including Xmax, low and linear inductance, efficiency, and a smooth frequency response well upwards of the crossover point. You won't find another driver that has this combination.

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post #115 of 130 Old 09-24-2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post



I realize that a used 2226H may be able to be picked up cheaper. I've had many people offer to sell them to me or ask me to find homes for theirs after upgrading to TD15's. A used driver you don't necessarily know how it was used though. You don't necessarily know what parts were put in to a reconed woofer either. Just be aware of those things. There are very few TD woofers that end up on the used market. If an issue does arise that is not covered under the 3yr warranty, a factory done recone here is $75 plus parts. Typically about $125 total.

Ouch. That was like... a direct poke. tongue.gif

Yes, yes, yes. I WILL get around to picking up some AE drivers but not until after I had a chance to finally enjoy these JBL's that have been sitting around for far too long. wink.gif

I'll start the collection with two TD18h+'s...... next year. smile.gif

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post #116 of 130 Old 09-25-2013, 04:55 AM
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Wow John, thanks for that extensive responce! I seriously wish that I could afford 3 of those TD18h's for my mid-bass cabs that I am getting ready to start on. Like I said previously, I will be using the JBL2226h drivers in a sealed enclosure that doubles as a stand for each one of my Sierra-1/RAAL bookshelf LCR's. I bet those TD18's sound nice, unfortunately I can not afford them, so I will be sticking with the JBL2226.

I really appreciate your response though, John, as I now feel like I know more about these AE woofers that were previously a mystery to me!
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post #117 of 130 Old 09-25-2013, 06:08 AM
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"The B&C has nothing in terms of impedance compensation or inductance control..."

tbx100 has demodulation rings.

"While the demodulating rings help to reduce distortion some, nothing works like the full sleeve of copper..."

i agree. would be interesting to see the difference measured though. my understanding is that most of the reduction in distortion can be achieved with demodulating rings, which is pretty much why that is what is universally done.

"the 18Sound has a massive breakup from the dustcap about 1.6KHz as does the B&C. If using for pure subwoofer duty, it may not be an issue. If using the driver up to 300hz in a 3way system, that places the 5th harmonic right about that point."

i don't understand this comment at all. if the driver is crossed at 300hz 4th order what is happening at 1.6khz is completely irrelevant. you are confusing two different concepts. maybe it was just a brain fart.

"Price wise that is a good comparison. Xmax is 14mm making it comparable too. As you mention though, inductance is almost 5x as high and without the linearity."

i didn't mention anything about the linearity of the inductance on the b&c, but now that you bring it up, it is actually quite good. and, as you know, it is the linearity in inductance that is more important to reducing distortion than the actual level of the inductance itself. changing inductance with respect to coil position or current is the source of the distortion.

the klippel on the sw115 shows an extremely linear inductance varying by only 10% or so.


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post #118 of 130 Old 09-25-2013, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

tbx100 has demodulation rings.

Sorry my mistake. The inductance is still high so i never noticed they had the rings.
Quote:
i agree. would be interesting to see the difference measured though. my understanding is that most of the reduction in distortion can be achieved with demodulating rings, which is pretty much why that is what is universally done.

A demodulation ring will help with reducing flux modulation by reducing eddy currents. The problem is that the effectiveness varies depending on coil position. It is most effective when the coil is fully next to the demodulation ring. It is more effective on the outward stroke than the inward stroke. Here are some images of the eddy currents in a motor at different positions.

At t=.012s the current to the coil is just being applied. You can already see current going into the shorting ring knowing it does help. At this position though less than half of the coil is around the pole so the eddy currents are small


At t=.028s you can see the coil fully around the pole and eddy currents are high. There are also a lot of currents seen in the demodulation ring. However, you can still see a large amount of eddy current in the pole piece. It is reduced some, but not a lot.


At t=.044s the coil is fully next to the demodulation ring. Here it is most effective with almost all of the eddy currents going into the ring. The key is to have the coil always fully next to the shorting ring like this.


Sleeving the entire pole with copper means the coil is always next to the shorting ring. There is no way for the current to get around the ring. It is continually shorted. The other thing to note is that the above lowering of inductance vs current, Le(i), does not help with inductance vs excursion, Le(x). With the steel pole in the middle, the coil is still acting as an iron core at all points. That is why inductance is high yet. As the coil begins to go upward and windings go past the tip of the pole, inductance lowers as it becomes partially air core. As it goes inward, it becomes fully iron core and Le goes up. If there is a copper cap or ring on the pole, this makes part of the coil operate as an air core and part as an iron core. As it moves back and forth past this section where it becomes air core, the inductance will change. Putting a full sleeve of copper on the pole makes it become air core at all points throughout the travel. That is why the Le(x) curves look like this on the TD woofers. You see no change in the impedance curve at rest or at 7mm.
https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se/ae-speakers-td12m/le-x

Drivers like the 18sound even with the AIC can lower inductance but not linearize it. If you look at the impedance curve at 10KHz, you see it does change with excursion. The change is actually more significant with the AIC on vs AIC off.
https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se/18-sound-12nda520/le-x
Quote:
"the 18Sound has a massive breakup from the dustcap about 1.6KHz as does the B&C. If using for pure subwoofer duty, it may not be an issue. If using the driver up to 300hz in a 3way system, that places the 5th harmonic right about that point."

i don't understand this comment at all. if the driver is crossed at 300hz 4th order what is happening at 1.6khz is completely irrelevant. you are confusing two different concepts. maybe it was just a brain fart.

This is something most people don't consider. Crossing over 4th order at 300hz will remove all fundamentals at 1.6Kz from being input to the amplifier. It does nothing to remove harmonic distortion at 1.6KHz that is caused by the driver itself. A fundamental tone at 300hz will create sound at various levels at every harmonic, 2nd -600hz, 3rd-900hz, 4th-1200hz, 5th-1500hz, 6th-1800hz, and on and on. It is proven you can have as much as 100% 2nd harmonic distortion and the human ear can barely notice it. The higher the order distortion, the less you need to be audible. You can have a 20th order harmonic as low as .01% and it is easy to hear as it is so far from the fundamental. Odd orders like 3rd and 5th are much more harsh to the human ear than the even orders.

So this 300hz tone bein input creates a 5th order harmonic at 1500hz. In the case of a TD woofer where a lot has been done to reduce flux modulation and linearize inductance, this 5th order harmonic will be low to begin with. There is also no breakup of 10dB or so due to the dustcap in that region. In a driver where there is no inductance control, this harmonic distortion will be as much as 10dB higher to begin with. Then factor in a 10dB increase in frequency due to the breakup. Not only is this a 20dB increase in magnitude of that 5th harmonic, but the dustcap creates a resonance that does not decay quickly. The 5th harmonic tone will be very high in level and continue for a long period of time. This is highly audible.
Quote:
i didn't mention anything about the linearity of the inductance on the b&c, but now that you bring it up, it is actually quite good. and, as you know, it is the linearity in inductance that is more important to reducing distortion than the actual level of the inductance itself. changing inductance with respect to coil position or current is the source of the distortion.

the klippel on the sw115 shows an extremely linear inductance varying by only 10% or so.


Yes, that does actually look quite good. Putting the alum properly placed on the pole as they did makes a big difference vs having it on the outside as many do. Inductance does still rise on the inward stroke, but a 10% variance is the best I have seen from drivers outside of our TD woofers. This is from the TD6H which has a thinner copper sleeve on the pole than the TD10-18. For all practical purposes, this driver has the worst Le linearity of every woofer we make. It varies only about 2.8%. The thicker the copper the less variance. The other TD woofers have even better Le linearity.


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post #119 of 130 Old 09-25-2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i didn't mention anything about the linearity of the inductance on the b&c, but now that you bring it up, it is actually quite good. and, as you know, it is the linearity in inductance that is more important to reducing distortion than the actual level of the inductance itself. changing inductance with respect to coil position or current is the source of the distortion.

the klippel on the sw115 shows an extremely linear inductance varying by only 10% or so.


It's important to recognize what a graph does and does not show. In this case you are only looking at Le vs. VC position. The variance of Le vs. current vs VC position is another 3D variable which inductance control helps with to varying degrees for different methods. A great case to look at for this is near the Fb of a PR reflex design, a bandpass, or horn. I've measured more than a few cases where excessive Le modulation results unexpected distortion increase despite modest excursion vs. rated Xmax.

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post #120 of 130 Old 09-25-2013, 01:18 PM
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Hi John,

Is that supposed to be a sine wave?

If so, why do both traces have glitches?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

The main issue is that this flux modulation affects the position of the VC. The following graph shows the curve with the shorting ring and without the shorting ring in red. This is not an optimized shorting ring, but you can clearly see that the coil is in a different position with and without the coil.


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