Acoustic Elegance TD18H+ in da house! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 130 Old 03-02-2011, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I just wanted to pass on initial impressions from my new Acoustic Elegance TD18H+ as it has made quite a positive impression. I admit to being a little unsure of my need to buy one given I already had a Peavey Black Widow 18 driver in action. However, once I installed the TD18H+ it was easy to work out why it was more than twice the price of the BW! Great bass makes for great music!

The bass is just so clear! I didn't think it would make such a difference as I am currently running them from 70Hz down. However, I am getting great response and serious punch from the AE driver, more so than before. Just put on a rock album and the bass drum kick is phenomenal. They are paired up with AE TD15S drivers for mid bass and the Unity Horn for the mids and up.

I obviously need to do some measurements to see if I can determine what the difference is. I am aware AVS is about measurements and not subjective opinions. I think that measure distortion' function on REW looks like something to explore. Any advice on what to measure (and how) would be greatly appreciated.

Next steps are to try the TD18H+ in a 90L sealed cabinet (like Findbuddha) and also try crossing the TD18H+ a little higher. My next project is building some cabinets for dual TD15S drivers so I can compare them directly with the single TD18H+.

Here are the T/S parameters for comparison:

Acoustic Elegance TD18H+
Fs: 29Hz
Qms:5.9
Vas: 390L
Cms: .185mm/N
Mms: 165g
Rms: 5kg/s
Xmax: 14mm
Sd: 1220scm
Qes: .23
Re: 5.6ohm
Le: .41mH
Z: 8ohm
Bl: 27Tm
Pe(cont): 1000W
Qts: .22
1W SPL: 98.2dB


Peavey Black Widow 1888HP BWX SPLi= 95.24 dB SPLo= 96.39 dB RMS=650W
Rem= 6.32 ê, Lem= 2.073 mH @1KHz
============================================================ =
Znom= 8.000 ê Sd= 0.1178 sqM Fi= 33.840 Hz Hvc= 20.7000mM
Revc= 5.790 ê BL= 23.8283 TM Fo= 36.130 Hz Hag= 7.0000 mM
Krm= 9.948 mê Vas= 230.1325 Litr Qms= 10.947 Xmx= 6.8500 mM
Kxm= 44.661 mH Cms= 116.7856 uM/N Qes= 0.385 Cmx= 2.0000mM
Mms= 166.1560 Gram Qts= 0.372 Mmd= 142.9080 Gram Pmx=1000.000

And of course some pics of the setup. Bass bin is 8 cu ft, tuned to 33Hz.
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post #2 of 130 Old 03-03-2011, 12:25 AM
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Ddduuuuuuuuddde!

I want one of these sooo bad. More impressions, please. Always welcome 'subjective' comments about any project.

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post #3 of 130 Old 03-03-2011, 12:41 AM
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I would like to hear how these do for 50-200Hz for mid bass duty. Comparison to the TD15S would be a nice bonus.
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post #4 of 130 Old 03-03-2011, 12:45 AM
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Nice!!!

Have they changed the phase plug? It looks more pointy.

I did a sim of this driver they other day and it seems it's made for a small box (relatively) with extension intended for music, and due to the low Qts it doesn't like to go low. It's a driver I've been very curious to hear.
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post #5 of 130 Old 03-03-2011, 01:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

More impressions, please. Always welcome 'subjective' comments about any project.

OK but I will refrain from citing which track from which album sounds best

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

I would like to hear how these do for 50-200Hz for mid bass duty. Comparison to the TD15S would be a nice bonus.

Me too! It could make the TD15S redundant Findbuddha did a test and gave me some positive feedback about crossing his TD18H at 300Hz. However, the thought of 6 AE drivers handling bass is not so bad

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Nice!!!

Have they changed the phase plug? It looks more pointy.

I did a sim of this driver they other day and it seems it's made for a small box (relatively) with extension intended for music, and due to the low Qts it doesn't like to go low. It's a driver I've been very curious to hear.

They have definitely tapered the phase plug, thank goodness!!!

In a relatively small sealed box, 90L, Qtc is 0.533 but it will need a bunch of EQ to get it flat to 20 Hz as it starts falling off around 100Hz. I think with the 14mm Xmax it's workable I'm keen to have a bass GTG

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post #6 of 130 Old 03-03-2011, 01:59 AM
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Bass GTG ... I like it! About time for Australia to have some of these things!

What would be good is to set up some different subs in a room with bass traps, EQ them to match and have a bit of a shoot out, one after the other.
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post #7 of 130 Old 03-03-2011, 05:24 AM
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the look with the pointed phase plug is much better. props mr. j.

the first thing that is going to make them more clean than something like the black widow is the copper sleeved pole piece. that will reduce and linearize inductance, which is a primary source of distortion.

this driver also has a very low qe, which means it has a combination of strong motor, light cone and compliant (soft) suspension. that all adds up to very good quality sound.

don't quote me on this last point, but with most pro audio type 18's, the kind you might get from 18sounds or jbl for example, the damage point is much further past the xmax point in order to allow for a ton of overshoot. the td18's xdamage point is not much past its xmax point, so be careful to control/limit your excursion.

this driver will play bass, mid-bass, and midrange...so no need for mid bass modules. unless there is some resonance, and i doubt there is (john j is pretty good about the first ones, which are spider and surround induced) around 350hz, you could probably use this 18 as high as you want (~750hz where it, as an 18 inch driver, will start beaming isn't out of the question).

i don't know about ventilation / long term cooling, so for high power pro audio applications, somebody else will have to weigh in there. john j. has said the copper plated pole wicks heat better than some other designs, but who knows.

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post #8 of 130 Old 03-03-2011, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

this driver also has a very low qe, which means it has a combination of strong motor, light cone and compliant (soft) suspension. that all adds up to very good quality sound.

don't quote me on this last point, but with most pro audio type 18's, the kind you might get from 18sounds or jbl for example, the damage point is much further past the xmax point in order to allow for a ton of overshoot. the td18's xdamage point is not much past its xmax point, so be careful to control/limit your excursion.

Yes, I did make note of the low Qe in my decision. The motor is enormous compared to the Peavey.

I did a few sims to see what might happen with an LT and compared with the TD15S (pair). The results are as follows. Essentially I have fed all of the drivers 200W and the LT is to 20Hz. Even if I use 27Hz, about as low as a piano will play, I get overexcursion. Seems like I need that Maelstrom afterall!
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post #9 of 130 Old 03-04-2011, 12:59 PM
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Antripodean, glad to hear these are working well. IMO the vented box is really the way to go vs a sealed. They have high motor strength designed to be able to work very well in vented cabinets. One thing you should try is getting the Black Light Syndrome album. Track 3 is Duende and there are some quick bass notes played by Tony Levin at the beginning. Compare to any other driver. Even with an 80hz crossover you'll hear distinct notes with the TD18 while other drivers will produce more of a rumble that changes tone but the notes aren't very distinct. I've done this demo with TD18's and B&C 18TBX100's side by side in identical enclosures and the difference was amazing.

LTD02, the one way Xmax on these drivers is 14mm. The actual suspension will do 23mm one way. This was the longest travel 18" surround I could find. The spider really is good to 30mm+ so the surround is the limiting factor. In any case there is a good 60% extra travel beyond Xmax before damage.

I have someone locally using 24 of the TD18's for live sound use on an almost nightly basis. He has build three systems and replaced all his B&C 18's with the TD18's. We have had one mechanical failure where he ripped the cone off the coil. The band had a 5 string bass and keyboard with lots of low end and he had taken out the 28hz highpass and run the subs fullrange. He was also using only 4 woofers in this application where he typically would have used 8-12 but the other woofers were out for another gig. The woofers are fed 1250-2500W each from lab gruppen amps on a nightly basis. There has only been that one failure in almost 2 years of using these drivers now. The VC itself did not look to have ever been warm even. If I can find a camera I'll take a pic of it.

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"Learn from the mistakes of others... you can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself"
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post #10 of 130 Old 03-04-2011, 01:57 PM
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Man... I'm having deja vu here of Tack's old thread. Maybe I've just read it too many times.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1141754

John, glad to see you drop in. What are your thoughts on using several (2-6 td18's) in sealed enclosures in a small room for HT use? My room is 2,000cuft. I know they have an early rolloff when sealed but in a room like mine I could see the room gain helping a lot. Then there is EQ and all that. I even think the rising response may even be beneficial for some where the upper end (50hz-120hz) is kinda... meh. My room suffers from that.

Just sounds like a cool idea to use these for all the bass if you could.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #11 of 130 Old 03-04-2011, 03:04 PM
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thanks for the info j.j. i had written down "in my head", 19mm, but 23mm is pretty much up there with the best of them. 14/23 is a good ratio for this application and i'm glad to hear that they can take a beating over time. durability was a question before, i suppose that question is being put to rest.

any thoughts on which measure would quantify the subjective cleanliness that you are hearing on the duende track? i've seen that you have mentioned this several times, so it is probably quite dramatic.

scott, they will work very well. the reason that you never see such a build is that it gets very expensive. for you, 8 drivers would be the ante...

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post #12 of 130 Old 03-04-2011, 03:06 PM
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Yeah but how cool would that be?

I'm going to wait out til the summer and see if the RLp18's come out again. If not. Expect to see me with 4 or more td18's.

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post #13 of 130 Old 03-04-2011, 03:14 PM
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"I get overexcursion..."

remember winisd models 2 pi space. in a real room, like scott is talking about, you get pressure vessel gain. this kicks in typically around 25hz +/- and provide a theoretical 12db per octave of free boost (but in reality, because of lossy room walls, air leaks, etc., the boost is 6-9db per octave).

the frequency where it starts to kick in is ~= 565 / Sqrt(L^2 + W^2 + H ^2)

numbers in feet.

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post #14 of 130 Old 03-04-2011, 03:20 PM
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"Yeah but how cool would that be?"

it would be very cool.

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post #15 of 130 Old 03-05-2011, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Man... I'm having deja vu here of Tack's old thread. Maybe I've just read it too many times.

Just sounds like a cool idea to use these for all the bass if you could.
Yes, I read Tack's thread and was impressed how he tuned them well below Fs. I keep looking at my ports to see how I can tune lower

I too think a wall of these babies would definitely be the way to go!

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remember winisd models 2 pi space. in a real room, like scott is talking about, you get pressure vessel gain. this kicks in typically around 25hz +/- and provide a theoretical 12db per octave of free boost (but in reality, because of lossy room walls, air leaks, etc., the boost is 6-9db per octave).

the frequency where it starts to kick in is ~= 565 / Sqrt(L^2 + W^2 + H ^2)
numbers in feet.
Thanks for the formula. My mic is on loan at the moment so once I get it back I will take some meaurements as well. I am keen to at least try the sealed option. As a thought, I can fit two sealed TD18H+ in the room for every one ported (stacked). That has to be a good thing!!!

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post #16 of 130 Old 03-06-2011, 06:02 AM
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"Thanks for the formula."

no problem. what is actually going on at that point is that the long dimension of the room is less than one half of a wavelength. as a result instead of the sound wave bouncing and reflecting around the room, the pressure in the room just goes up everywhere. the speed of sound is ~1130 feet per second. 1/2 that is 565. that is where the 565 is coming from.

if you can...dual sealed for sure!

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post #17 of 130 Old 03-06-2011, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I will be build my dual sealed TD15S this month so I think dual TD18H will be a fair way off Still, it would also be a fantastic visual experience to have a whole bunch of the 18s in a row

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post #18 of 130 Old 03-07-2011, 02:29 AM
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Well go ahead and buy the 18's and I will try and buy some used 15's from you.
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post #19 of 130 Old 03-07-2011, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Sure, if I make that decision I will definitely let you know What makes the TD15S really interesting is that it can also be used in an IB

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post #20 of 130 Old 03-15-2011, 05:46 AM
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I cant seem to find it but what is the mounting depth of the TD18H?
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post #21 of 130 Old 03-15-2011, 07:48 PM
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i just saw that they are on sale for four bills. wish i could get a couple rain checks. :-(

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post #22 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 03:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I cant seem to find it but what is the mounting depth of the TD18H?

I couldn't find it either. I will have to measure and get back to you

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i just saw that they are on sale for four bills. wish i could get a couple rain checks. :-(

Now you know why I bought one

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post #23 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 10:50 AM
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Eh... they have always been available for $400. You just need to buy two or more.

I want these so bad! I don't know what I'd do with them though.

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post #24 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I want these so bad! I don't know what I'd do with them though.

You need to buy at least one to compare with the suite of JBLs you have. A back to back comparison would be of great interest

Another good reason is that these drivers are great audio eye candy! It's the one driver that everyone comments on in my system

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post #25 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 05:45 PM
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Don't know what to do with em? Well if the obvious doesn't occur, send em to me!
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post #26 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 06:03 PM
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I am shopping for an 18" sub for HT duties...it will go in a 7 cuft ported box.

would this be a better driver than the Fi or t he IXL? ( my two current options )

I must say from the looks of it , me like!!!

Box is already built...

Tim
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post #27 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 06:07 PM
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i wonder if john j. might be interested in shooting one down to ricci for the next round of tests. ricci picked up some 2242h and they are rumored to be in the next round of testing. ideally, they would be tested in identical enclosures. large sealed enclosures might be best for testing, even if that is not their ideal enclosure design. are they close enough in size to do a hot swap in a single enclosure on test day?

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post #28 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 06:18 PM
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It's very apples to oranges. The TD18H is a low Q driver that will do it's job to 40 Hz in a relatively small box with high efficiency and massive output, and I've seen it measured full range - this is a rare beast in that it looks like it could be made to work as midbass in a 2 way!!! Try to force it down lower and you really are fighting against it's design intent, it quickly starts to look like an EBS any time you try to push it below 40 Hz. So what that means is that it's a killer beast for midbass, which is likely to blow sub drivers away since it will take as much power as any of them, probably with lower compression, but with much higher efficiency. However, I think many will find that they would like to have a sub running below it even for music. The nice thing about this is that such a sub will then see a much lighter thermal load and simply does what it does best - move more air. Many subs are thermally limited, especially when driven by a plate amp.
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post #29 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 07:46 PM
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were you talking to me?

the td18h+ and jbl 2242h model quite the same.

there is more to it though...hoping that john j. and ricci can help us with clues to the "more to it" part. ;-)


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post #30 of 130 Old 03-16-2011, 08:36 PM
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LTD, that was more directed to Tim who asked about this driver vs some sub drivers. I'm sure there's nothing new there to you.
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