Just finished a ZRT 2-way build - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 49 Old 03-20-2011, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Could be the above mentioned three items. Makes sense to me.

I do plan on listening more and trying different configurations before coming to a conclusion.

I can't easily convert these cabinets to 2.5 so I have to run with what I brung so to speak.
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post #32 of 49 Old 03-20-2011, 08:09 PM
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Dude. I just had a look at the spec sheets and those tweeters are different. Not even the same sensitivity. I wouldn't have guessed the tweeter to cause a "dynamics" problem, or for Madisound to offer bad advice, but they did. Might want to look into that.
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post #33 of 49 Old 03-20-2011, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I saw that early on and asked madisound several times, quite emphatically, if the tweets were electromechanically different given the different reported t-s specs from scan speak and they reassured me repeatedly that they are identical in performance and would work with the kit. That doesn't mean they were right... just saying that's what I was told. As I don't feel the so-called issues are in the mid-tweet transition, or even the upper mid octaves I am inclined to think even if that were true its probably not the issue. I think the bsc in the xover is more likely. Those are simply my thoughts on the matter- I am open to being wrong.
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post #34 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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looking into measurement tools. would appreciate some more great feedback on these options:

1) get the dayton omnimic kit from parts express
2) get a dedicated mic, outboard mixer with phantom power, and true rta software on my laptop.

price comes out about the same...
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post #35 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 07:39 AM
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You could spend even less if you want? I'm using a Panasonics WM61A capsule (eBay search that) and my stock sound card and HolmImpulse. Just started so I can't say to much good or bad.

Otherwise I'd take the Dayton setup if it's the same price.
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post #36 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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looked up the mic part you referenced and found a site showing how to wire one up.

does the holm software have provisions for sound card and mic calibration?
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post #37 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 09:16 AM
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You can try my HOLM : How-to thread out

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1236094

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #38 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post

looking into measurement tools. would appreciate some more great feedback on these options:

1) get the dayton omnimic kit from parts express
2) get a dedicated mic, outboard mixer with phantom power, and true rta software on my laptop.

price comes out about the same...

IMO, The price is 1/2 for HOLM, Dayton Mic and USB sound card.

True RTA is a waste of $$$ period. HOLM, ARTA, REW are all free choices.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #39 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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awesome references. i like spending less $$$ if it works the same.

will check out the thread to get learned

thanks fellas (and gals)!
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post #40 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 03:01 PM
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Two questions.

What were your old speakers?
If you're not accustomed to flat, extended response, it'll seem like you're missing something... which you are, most likely linear distortion.

Have you asked Zaph about the tweeter swap?
Madisound is in the business of selling parts. Zaph is, too, to some extent, but he's also got a reputation based on his designs and will likely have an opinion if you ask.

He also knows this design's capability better than anyone here. Why not go to the source? Everything you get here is heresay, plus talking with Zaph is free.

Have fun,
Frank
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post #41 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I am actually in the process of drafting communication to both zaph and scan speak
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post #42 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 05:40 PM
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lift up to first principles...measurements aren't going to turn a low efficiency system into a high efficiency system. what you have is very nice for what it does. if you want something different, build something else. nobody likes to be the guy to suggest this. this time, i'll take the hit.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #43 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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understood, but i'm not expecting measurements to magically change the efficiency. i am looking for the possibility of inappropriate BSC and/or the wrong xover design for the tweeter selected (I have emailed scan speak to see what the manufacturer says about material parameter variance). If I find either of the above, that can be addressed through xover or driver changes, which I'm willing to do if the performance increase is tangible.

i do appreciate that this is a damn good speaker for what it is, and if i find that there are no inherent design issues i will accept the performance of the system- though i do think a little more power with better headroom would help vs. an integrated amp.

thanks again everybody!
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post #44 of 49 Old 03-21-2011, 11:18 PM
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How many watts does your integrated have?

Those are killer speakers dude
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post #45 of 49 Old 03-22-2011, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
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140 claimed wpc. But that's with only two of seven possible channels driven. I'm guessing the power supply is dinky compared to separates.

The sepakers I replaced- jamos- were clearly more sensitive. To the tune of four or five dB. But they didn't have the overall transparency, or brilliance of the high end. I just gotta figure out this "missing" link. It may well just be me. But I will figure it out. I'm persistent. :-)
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post #46 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Update!

I'll start by getting right to the point: the speakers sound way better and I'm quite happy with them now. They're not yet fully "there" but they're damn close.

What changed:
1) Probably my ears
2) Maybe "break-in" (but I've never fully believed in the merits of prolonged break-in and I'm fully aware of the controversial nature of that topic). With the couple of weeks that have gone by, there is noticeable (to me and my girlfriend) added clarity and impact that wasn't there before.
3) Better level-matching across all channels
4) Better material for auditioning
5) last but not least, a revision of my expectations- or rather, my interpretations- of what the speakers should do

I found that with really good material, the speakers sound fantastic (and with the sub dialed down another 3 dB!). With mediocre material, guess what... they sound mediocre. I kept remembering the earlier post where a wise person stated I might be missing the distortion that I'm used to. I think there's some merit to that. This speakers are revealing, and they do not seem to lie. They're not "clinical" but they clearly do care about the material quality.

Next, I really do think a beefier supply of power with more headroom is needed. Maybe the speakers will just compress, maybe not. I just feel like the power being delivered isn't adequate. I'm looking into separates later this year.

Finally, I did reach out to Scan-Speak and had a less-than-stellar experience, which was disappointing. I emailed the firm, asking if the two tweeters were electromechanically identical and therefore could use the same crossover design interchangeably and this was the response:

Quote:
Hello,

Thank you for your mail.

Madisound is our distributor and therefore they know our products very, very well. We improve our products all the time and we are up-dating our specs based on this, so this might be the reason for modified parameters.

If you need further information please contact Madisound again.
While I get what was being said, I found this to be a weak move. I emailed back asking for a simple statement of clarity and my email went unanswered. How unfortunate.

I tried to find a way to contact Zaph via his site but all I could find were discouraging pages requesting I do nothing of the sort.

So I'm just going to continue to tune by ear (and by instrument if and once I'm ready to). Madisound did say repeatedly that the tweeters were equivalent, and now with the changed performance I am inclined to believe them. I am now focusing on paying attention to the baffle step and whether it's appropriate.

Thanks again!
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post #47 of 49 Old 03-31-2011, 05:36 PM
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Good to hear man

To contact zaph, you may post on Madisounds forum. He jumps on there to field questions often. If you wanted to be pushy, you may even send him a pm over there. I dunno.
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post #48 of 49 Old 11-18-2012, 05:50 AM
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I used the 4531 for my actively crossed over mains and center (actually a 8531 for the center) and find they have plenty of "oomph" even crossed over at 80Hz. I substituted a different tweeter, not hard to do with active crossovers. Of course the 200 watts of amplification dedicated to each driver doesn't hurt. They are my favorite speakers ever.
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post #49 of 49 Old 11-20-2012, 03:34 AM
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ashmostro,

Try swapping the tweeter capacitors round. The schematic looked wrong to me and doing this solved all the problems I had with the sound. Madisound assure me there is no error, but it certainly worked for me.
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