Danley DIY Synergy Horn kit - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 02:02 PM
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what do you mean that impedance transformation does not occur with a short flared tube in front of the c.d.?

In a constant directivity horn this takes place just as in any other type of horn.

How it behaves is both the reason Tom uses them and a problem in using them.

Play with a straight sided conical horn in hornresp and you will see what I mean. A single flare conical horn has a much faster low end roll off compared to a multiple conical expansion horn of the same mouth size. But this can be fairly easily equalized both mechanically with driver radiating area and passively in the crossover. One of the reasons Tom uses so many mid-range drivers is to make up for the loss in loading the midrange drivers have in the horn.

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post #182 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post

That's also the reason why I am so tempted by the SM-60M. I don't need response all the way down to 80hz, the 270hz corner is fine.

I'm with you on this, especially as I prefer to have 15s and/or 18s delivering the bass. What I want to know is why the SM-60M only goes to 15k? (and no discussions about only bats hear above 15k )

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post #183 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 02:47 PM
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If anyone is still counting I am in for 3 (LCR).

I don`t really see why DSL wouldn`t consider offering something like the SH50 as a kit. From everything I gather home audio isn`t his target market or a significant portion of the company`s revenue. I also suspect any of use who would want a DIY wouldn`t considering paying the MSRP of his finished products. All they would have to do is box up the unassembled parts and sell them as kits. The only real detractor I see is that the Danley name will end up on some speakers that might be built improperly. I really hope they can find a way to offer us DIY folks an avenue for a SH50 like they did with the DTS-10.

P.S. I have alot of respect for Ivan and Danley (sry if i forgot anyone) for participating in such a thread. It`s nice to be able to have access to the designers of the gear I am considering purchasing.
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post #184 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I'm with you on this, especially as I prefer to have 15s and/or 18s delivering the bass. What I want to know is why the SM-60M only goes to 15k? (and no discussions about only bats hear above 15k )

Who says it only goes to 15Khz?

A very simple number on a spec sheet?

WHat you really need to do is to look just a little bit lower than the "simple numbers" and you will see a graph.

The -3dB may be 15KHz, but that doesn't mean it stops there. As you can see it goes well beyond 20Khz.

Our -3dB points are REAL -3dB points-as in 3dB down from rated sensitivity. Lots of other manufacturers LOVE to play games with the numbers and let the marketing dept put some more interesting numbers on the spec sheets.

We show you the MEASURED grah-not a graph that has been "redrawn" to make it look better.

What other products are you comparing it to that have a calibrated response graph? Yes there are some, but most just post the "simple numbers".

Any complex question is easily explained by a simple-easy to understand wrong answer/

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post #185 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

If anyone is still counting I am in for 3 (LCR).

I don`t really see why DSL wouldn`t consider offering something like the SH50 as a kit. From everything I gather home audio isn`t his target market or a significant portion of the company`s revenue. I also suspect any of use who would want a DIY wouldn`t considering paying the MSRP of his finished products. All they would have to do is box up the unassembled parts and sell them as kits. The only real detractor I see is that the Danley name will end up on some speakers that might be built improperly. I really hope they can find a way to offer us DIY folks an avenue for a SH50 like they did with the DTS-10.

P.S. I have alot of respect for Ivan and Danley (sry if i forgot anyone) for participating in such a thread. It`s nice to be able to have access to the designers of the gear I am considering purchasing.

The horn in the SH50 is not an easy thing to make-even with all the pieces cut properly. You have to have a jig to build it up on. At least to do it right.

The DTS10 was chosen as a kit because it was felt that most anybody with decent skills could build it.

But if you look over the thread- you will find all kinds of "problems" that have resulted. These include not paying attention to the provided wiring diagrams-not properly seating the pieces into place-not glueing them up properly and so forth.

No matter how simple you try to make it-it will get messed up.

A more complicated build (such as the SH50) would really end up being messed up.

And from a business perspective-the SH50 is a very successful product. So offering it as a kit, would hurt the sales of the finished product.

Danley is a finished goods manufacturer-not a kit company. But that does not mean that there won't be some various kits from time to time-but that is far from the main focus.

Tom and I are both very much a DIYer at heart-having grown up in the Heathkit days.

Stay tuned to see what developes.

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post #186 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 03:35 PM
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Thanks for the honest reply.

Being engineer I sometimes assume everyone can follow instructions properly

I understand your reasons but I hope you won`t hold it against me if i continue to hope you offer it as a kit.

Regardless if anything ever comes of the kit I hope to audition a set of SH50 or SH60 as I think I have a full 7.1 Danley setup in my future.
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post #187 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Tom and I are both very much a DIYer at heart-having grown up in the Heathkit days.

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Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Being engineer I sometimes assume everyone can follow instructions properly

A lifetime ago, I managed Heathkit Factory Service. You really wouldn't believe some of the stuff the guys had to work on. A few of the humorous examples were built by EEs...design, yes; follow instructions, not necessarily.

Levity aside, I'd very much like to see this happen.

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post #188 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

The -3dB may be 15KHz, but that doesn't mean it stops there. As you can see it goes well beyond 20Khz.

Our -3dB points are REAL -3dB points-as in 3dB down from rated sensitivity. Lots of other manufacturers LOVE to play games with the numbers and let the marketing dept put some more interesting numbers on the spec sheets.

What other products are you comparing it to that have a calibrated response graph? Yes there are some, but most just post the "simple numbers".

I'm comparing this directly with the Danley Sound Labs SM60F - 66 Hz - 24 kHz +/- 4 dB

I'm thinking this is an apples and apples comparison as both SM60M and SM60F use the same driver over the frequency range of interest (270Hz up)

So, back to my question - Why doesn't the SM60M go over 15K (with the qualifier of +/- 4dB)?

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post #189 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post

Plus, I don't think the mouth size is full size for a 80hz corner, but is for 270hz. I prefer to keep mouth sizes full sized.

Well, you ideally want the mouth plus any close coupled boundaries to load down to the XO point, so the mouth needs to be somewhat larger, which the SM60 has if 270 Hz is the desired XO point.

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post #190 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i'm with you on the molecules along the walls, but that is another topic.

what do you mean that impedance transformation does not occur with a short flared tube in front of the c.d.?

I didn't say anythging about a CD.

My point was that your example doesn't always work, so it's missing someting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Acoustic horns convert large pressure variations with a small displacement area into a low pressure variation with a large displacement area and vice versa. It does this through the gradual, often exponential increase of the cross sectional area of the horn. The small cross-sectional area of the throat restricts the passage of air thus presenting a high impedance to the driver. This allows the driver to develop a high pressure for a given displacement. Therefore the sound waves at the throat are of high pressure and low displacement. The tapered shape of the horn allows the sound waves to gradually decompress and increase in displacement until they reach the mouth where they are of a low pressure but large displacement.


That seems to adequately explain both the basic mechanism of acoustic impedance matching, and the reason you need a horn that tapers from small to large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_loudspeaker

It doesn't say anything about waves or wavelengths, which I think is key.


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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"No matter how simple you try to make it-it will get messed up.

A more complicated build (such as the SH50) would really end up being messed up."

you talk down to us like we are peons, yet your frequency response is a total disaster.

no need for that.

Not at all, it's just reality.

Do you have experience in DIY?

Ever made a mistake?

I'm a mechanical engineer and I has some problems assembling the DTS-10.

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post #191 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by pnw View Post

A lifetime ago, I managed Heathkit Factory Service. You really wouldn't believe some of the stuff the guys had to work on. A few of the humorous examples were built by EEs...design, yes; follow instructions, not necessarily.

Levity aside, I'd very much like to see this happen.


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post #192 of 492 Old 03-31-2011, 06:53 PM
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I didn't read it as Ivan talking down to us. I think he was just saying that enough people would screw up a SH50 assembly that it wouldn't be worth it for DSL. I can see how assembling those angle pieces wouldn't be easy.

DSL has a customer service reputation to uphold and putting out a DIY product that requires them to spend significant money on support wouldn't make sense.

The SM60F is probably ideal, but a SM60M that then requires a separate midbass module would also be cool. I'm thinking Danley just sells the horn, coax, crossover and maybe some plans with a specific midbass driver. That might be cheaper than the SM60F.
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post #193 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"No matter how simple you try to make it-it will get messed up.

A more complicated build (such as the SH50) would really end up being messed up."

you talk down to us like we are peons, yet your frequency response is a total disaster.

no need for that.

I didn't say that everybody would mess it up. But there are a lot of people who attempt to build things they shouldn't and the result is a messed up build.

The more complicated the build-the more chance of error.
Some people have very good skills in woodworking-and others are just lucky to have all their fingers.

Give 3 people a hammer. One will build a house-One will build a nice piece of furniture. The third will hit his thumb and blame the hammer.

We are not all created equal.

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post #194 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I'm comparing this directly with the Danley Sound Labs SM60F - 66 Hz - 24 kHz +/- 4 dB

I'm thinking this is an apples and apples comparison as both SM60M and SM60F use the same driver over the frequency range of interest (270Hz up)

So, back to my question - Why doesn't the SM60M go over 15K (with the qualifier of +/- 4dB)?

Again I say- if you look at the response GRAPH you will see that it does extend a good bit above 15Khz.

Many manufacturers use -10dB as the "usable range" (but even then extend the numbers beyond that range-more on that later). 24KHz is well within a -10dB range. Our measurement system does not go any higher than 24KHz-that is why it stops there.

A common "method" of some manufacturers is to consider + or - 3dB as "flat". So that gives them a -6dB point that they consider to be "flat". So then they take ANOTHER 10dB from that -6dB point, and call that the -10dB response point.

So that number in freq in NOT 10dB down (from rated sensitivity) but rather 16dB down. Not quite the same thing. 16db is only a factor of 40-so it is not that big a deal

But you can only see this on products that show you the measured response (most don't) and give you some numbers to compare.

If you don't have the response graph you can say anything you want-since you don't have anything to back it up with.

So if you still "believe" the response stops at 15Khz, then that is fine-but the measurements prove other wise.

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post #195 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 05:12 AM
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"I didn't say that everybody would mess it up."

yeah, i just read it the wrong way and over reacted. my bad. :-(

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post #196 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Again I say- if you look at the response GRAPH you will see that it does extend a good bit above 15Khz.

Many manufacturers use -10dB as the "usable range" (but even then extend the numbers beyond that range-more on that later). 24KHz is well within a -10dB range. Our measurement system does not go any higher than 24KHz-that is why it stops there.

I really don't care about other manufacturers in this instance. I can read a graph and I can read the stated operating frequencies. Here's the question in another way - why is the SM60M different to the SM60F at the higher frequencies,(ignoring the bass driver and its response)? These are the two speakers I am comparing and there's a different response reported at the top, over 15K, for what I would have thought was the same. I gather you would have done these measurements yourself. I am not asking, and never asked you, to defend your measurements. My Unity horn performs as for the SM60F to 20K and I would have expected the same from the SM60M.

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post #197 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I really don't care about other manufacturers in this instance. I can read a graph and I can read the stated operating frequencies. Here's the question in another way - why is the SM60M different to the SM60F at the higher frequencies,(ignoring the bass driver and its response)? These are the two speakers I am comparing and there's a different response reported at the top, over 15K, for what I would have thought was the same. I gather you would have done these measurements yourself. I am not asking, and never asked you, to defend your measurements. My Unity horn performs as for the SM60F to 20K and I would have expected the same from the SM60M.

You have to remember that at those freq and wavelengths-they are VERY VERY small and any sort of little variance would affect it-even mic position by fractions of an inch.

You also have to remember that there are tolerances of components (and they vary more up high). The measurements posted are of a typical cabinet that was just pulled from the line. We don't measure a bunch of cabinets looking for the best response. We choose a typical cabinet. And the spec sheet numbers come from that measurement.

Of course if we used more smoothing-or fewer data points or so forth, then the responses would look closer.

If you take any model cabinet (from any manufacturer) and start to measure differences and look at the extreme high freq you will see all sorts of variances.

I really would not read to much into the small differences that you see.

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post #198 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

how about a 75 degree synergy horn kit good to 300hz with a suggestion/plan(s) for a woofer(s) to carry the mid-bass? ;-) this could be done with a single coax driver (low cost). if crossed in that low, folks could put the woofer(s) beside the horn for those who need a center channel under their screen without getting too much off axis combing, right? maybe a budget woofer option and a performance woofer(s) option. home rooms don't need the massive top end power found in the pro line because high frequencies attenuate with distance much faster than low frequencies.


I do not think a single Coax CD will play down to 300Hz well enough and there is NOTHING low cost about any CD that performs below 1KHz. I also do not think its a worthy excersize to offer just single Coax CD design. its all about the extra drivers mounted on the horn so it has to be at minimum a CD + 6 or 8" woofers.

Otherwise we really should buy other horns (ala IWATA-300) and just put a coax CD on them saving money.

Danley's expertise is not in the horn shape, its in the idea of having phase coherence and having all driver mounted in a horn.





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also, what do you suggest for flattening out all the ripple in the frequency response? not to spend too much time with a competitor, but toole and co. did an enormous amount of research and concluded that flat frequency response (and smooth power response) was pretty much the single most important factor relating to subjective listener scores. you have peaks and dips all over the place, but folks report good sound. is there a way to make good sound -> better sound with some eq, or does monkeying around with e.q. mess up the goodness? i could see how adding a whole bunch of filters may be worse, particularly in the time domain, than just going raw.

That is going to be a can of worms

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post #199 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

If anyone is still counting I am in for 3 (LCR).

I don`t really see why DSL wouldn`t consider offering something like the SH50 as a kit. From everything I gather home audio isn`t his target market or a significant portion of the company`s revenue. I also suspect any of use who would want a DIY wouldn`t considering paying the MSRP of his finished products. All they would have to do is box up the unassembled parts and sell them as kits. The only real detractor I see is that the Danley name will end up on some speakers that might be built improperly. I really hope they can find a way to offer us DIY folks an avenue for a SH50 like they did with the DTS-10.

P.S. I have alot of respect for Ivan and Danley (sry if i forgot anyone) for participating in such a thread. It`s nice to be able to have access to the designers of the gear I am considering purchasing.

Or more people will have access to SM60 like speakers in homes and the Kit opens up the other market. The DTS-10 kit was a pretty good success and model for them so I think they tend to know what they are doing.

You post like Danley is a household name in the audiophile world and they have some rep to protect...BLAH, the majority has never heard about them!! Remember the Majority is not posting on a DIY forum and has no PRO audio back ground.

Also for every DIYer that might screw up there are others that will great a product that looks better then what DSL offers Btw, I do also suspect Danley's name will be no where on the kits. Who can screw up building a box though. This is 100 times less complex then putting together all the folds of a BIG horn.

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post #200 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 08:03 AM
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"I do not think a single Coax CD will play down to 300Hz"

i wasn't suggesting a single coax cd. i was thinking a single coaxial driver as in the sm-60m. what is the going rate for a sm-60m? looking at it again, that actually looks like what i was thinking and the performance appears to be there as well. the single driver will keep costs down and the size isn't too outrageous.

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post #201 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I do not think a single Coax CD will play down to 300Hz"

i wasn't suggesting a single coax cd. i was thinking a single coaxial driver as in the sm-60m. what is the going rate for a sm-60m? looking at it again, that actually looks like what i was thinking and the performance appears to be there as well. the single driver will keep costs down and the size isn't too outrageous.

Thanks for the clarification sorry to assume it was a CD. I have not read much about the sm-60m but honestly we are in the Mark Seaton Sparks design territory now. The DSL horn is only given us better directivity (of course that is a good thing )

I still see little viability in a kit offering one coax driver only running down to 300hz when we can do a larger horn with a Coax CD to 500hz already for probably less $$$. Yes, I want the synergy design with woofers mounted on the horn, that is what we all want !!

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post #202 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 09:21 AM
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? the sparks have no horn, they are just a coax in a box.

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post #203 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yes, I want the synergy design with woofers mounted on the horn, that is what we all want !!

+1, it is the signature design element that makes a speaker uniquely a "Danley".

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post #204 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

You have to remember that at those freq and wavelengths-they are VERY VERY small and any sort of little variance would affect it-even mic position by fractions of an inch.

Also, the ruler flat on-axis response one sees with some designs won't translate to that response at the listening position, because they aren't CD. Early reflections will mess things up. The in-room response of a Synergy-style horn will more than likely be better than, say, a Revel. (Of course, the same holds true for any speaker based on a narrow and constant-directivity horn/waveguide of sufficient size.)

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I do not think a single Coax CD will play down to 300Hz well enough and there is NOTHING low cost about any CD that performs below 1KHz. I also do not think its a worthy excersize to offer just single Coax CD design. its all about the extra drivers mounted on the horn so it has to be at minimum a CD + 6 or 8" woofers.

I'd be perfectly happy with a 5" woofer, as in the SM60M. If there's a suitable 6" coax that can be used to get the Synergy horn playing comfortably down another octave, that's great too, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Otherwise we really should buy other horns (ala IWATA-300) and just put a coax CD on them saving money.

I'm surprised he doesn't have a big horn design for the BMS 5cn140 yet. But I'm not at all convinced that the woofers (>300Hz) need to be on the horn. Tom has mentioned the KEF Blade concept a while ago. It might be fun to take a 20" Synergy horn and flank it with 4 8-10" woofers. It might also cost more in the end than an integrated design, considering that the number of woofers doubles. Or not.


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i wasn't suggesting a single coax cd. i was thinking a single coaxial driver as in the sm-60m. what is the going rate for a sm-60m? looking at it again, that actually looks like what i was thinking and the performance appears to be there as well. the single driver will keep costs down and the size isn't too outrageous.

My thoughts exactly. Relative simplicity for the end user (wire up a crossover, bolt one driver onto the back of a horn), lower cost, and great flexibility in use.

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

+1, it is the signature design element that makes a speaker uniquely a "Danley".

I'm confused. So the old Danley Unity horn kit from Lambda acoustics, which went down to about 300Hz, wasn't "uniquely a 'Danley?'"

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post #205 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I'm confused. So the old Danley Unity horn kit from Lambda acoustics, which went down to about 300Hz, wasn't "uniquely a 'Danley?'"

That was an early version of the concept that Tom had, that is now the Synergy horn.

Tom has learned a lot over the years and has learned how to apply that knowledge into making better products.

If you compare his latest creations to the "origionals" the difference is VERY evident in the clarity-openness-detail and so forth.

So while the "concept" may be the same-the implementation is not.

Just like engines. Today we have more powerful ones that get better gas milage than years ago-but the basic concept is still the same.

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post #206 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

That was an early version of the concept that Tom had, that is now the Synergy horn.

Tom has learned a lot over the years and has learned how to apply that knowledge into making better products.

Not related to the point I was making, which was that bass extension isn't the defining characteristic here. If it were, the SM60M wouldn't be "Danley."

Now, if you had written, say, "no, it's not: it was branded something else (Servodrive?)" you would have been right on fact.

One would expect that, with time, the implementation gets refined.

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post #207 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I'm confused. So the old Danley Unity horn kit from Lambda acoustics, which went down to about 300Hz, wasn't "uniquely a 'Danley?'"

Of course they are all Danley designs. The Synergy is distinctly unique from the Unity horn design. Those unique differences are patented and are what makes the Synergy phase coherent compared to the Unity. However, although the SM60M is also a Danley design, the single coaxial design doesn't make it "unique" in my mind. The addition of drivers to the horn in the SM60F make it "unique" compared to the latter. It's not just extension of bass at issue here, it is the patented Synergy design that solves the issues of phase coherence of multiple drivers(and perhaps other issues of which I'm unaware).

Placing drivers in the horn and extending the phase coherent FR of the M model from 300 Hz down to 70 Hz is the magic that has me interested in Danley's speakers. If you don't think that is unique, that's OK, it's only my opinion.

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post #208 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 02:39 PM
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"Placing drivers in the horn and extending the phase coherent FR of the M model from 300 Hz down to 70 Hz is the magic"

is it really?

at 300hz, the wavelength is almost 4 feet long (well 1130/300, whatever that works out to). the horn will lose directivity long before 70hz. i don't see any reason why phase coherency needs to be lost below 300hz when crossing to a woof. as t.d. might say, there is a point where it becomes "good enough".

how about some manifold woofs to the sides of the m models?

quick concept of t.d. horn crossed to sealed manifold woofs. with a little experimentation, placement of the woofs should allow for time alignment.


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post #209 of 492 Old 04-01-2011, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Placing drivers in the horn and extending the phase coherent FR of the M model from 300 Hz down to 70 Hz is the magic"

is it really?

at 300hz, the wavelength is almost 4 feet long (well 1130/300, whatever that works out to). the horn will lose directivity long before 70hz. i don't see any reason why phase coherency needs to be lost below 300hz when crossing to a woof. as t.d. might say, there is a point where it becomes "good enough".

how about some manifold woofs to the sides of the m models?

quick concept of t.d. horn crossed to sealed manifold woofs. with a little experimentation, placement of the woofs should allow for time alignment.

I think my point is lost. I didn't mean to imply that something else wouldn't work , or be "good enough". I was only trying to point out the elegance of having the woofers IN the horn.

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post #210 of 492 Old 04-02-2011, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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A limited extending design, ala > 80Hz would be a limited market design as well.

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