Measurement Mic Shootout (EMM-6, WM-61A, RS 33-2055, Audyssey) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 375 Old 04-15-2011, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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If you're using HDMI output, you should run the loopback calibration with your receiver inline.

PC HDMI -> receiver, then receiver front channel pre-amp output -> mic in

That should give you a better calibration of your signal chain.
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post #182 of 375 Old 04-15-2011, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaywood View Post

Attached are calibration files for the WM-61A


CH
This calibration doesn't do much. It's also from 300hz up. It also brought the readings from my WM-61A further away from the calibrated mic.
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post #183 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Sounds good. I have two other RS meters coming for comparison as well.

RS Digital SPL meter catalog number 30-2055 with a capital A in a square after the number. More than 5 years old.


Photo of factory mic element. The series is WD as compared with the WM series that is being discussed here. Perhaps we can find some general info on this mic element. It may be an obsolete series.


If you have a newer RS SPL meter, perhaps you could open your unit and check on the mic element code. It is easy to open up the SPL meter with no damage. 2 screws and that is it.



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post #184 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
Audyssey doesn't have to make comments. They've published the FR of their mic.

Bosso

Show me the Audyssey published FR curve of the Audyssey microphone.

In the following link (recent) Chris of Audyssey comments on the assembly line test procedure and bypasses the microphone FR curve question that a poster asked. Each individual microphone is indeed measured at the factory. Out of spec microphones are rejected.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post19804654




Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Infra, as you call it, is extremely important. If, for example, you build a Linkwitz Transform for your sealed sub, you may be adding boost that's 10X vs 4X if you use the AUD mic thinking that it measures flat to 3 Hz.

Bosso

Then too bad for you. You should have a calibrated microphone if you are doing that kind of work. The brand of microphone is not critical for FR measurement, but the microphone must be calibrated.

For high SPL use, the microphone type is critical.

If you own an Audyssey microphone, send it out and get calibration files.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19803130


NOTE: You does not mean you (AKA Bosso)!




Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Yes, Audyssey adds quite a lot of boost to the bottom of my signal chain. Around +8dB as a matter of fact. That boost on top af a +8dB L/T boost is more than most any system can handle.

Bosso


Cause and effect there Bosso. That confirms that Audyssey does not monitor / measure infra as a specific area of interest. Apply cuts in the troublesome peaky bass range as appropriate, then boost subwoofer gain to set subwoofer output levels. That increase in infra level is a predictable byproduct of Audyssey room correction.

If Audyssey was monitoring / controlling infra (AKA sub 16-20 Hz frequencies), then that simply could not happen.
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post #185 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 07:51 AM
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According to Aud/Chris, Audyssey XT only applies eq correction down to A max of 10Hz..
obviously this is only true if audyssey found the -3db point of the subs to be close or below 10hz..

cheers..
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post #186 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

If you're using HDMI output, you should run the loopback calibration with your receiver inline.

PC HDMI -> receiver, then receiver front channel pre-amp output -> mic in

That should give you a better calibration of your signal chain.

thanks.

so it goes like this?

PC HDMI => Receiver HDMI
Receiver Front L/R RCA = > 2 RCA/3.5mm => PC Mic In 3.5mm?

then the question is, do i need a two RCA to one 3.5mm mono adapter?

or can i use a two RCA to one 3.5mm stereo adapter?
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post #187 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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You only need to use one of the preamp output channels from the receiver to the mic in for calibrations.

If you can just run soundcard out to mic in, that's probably the best bet, but if you can only wire it up with the receiver in line, it shouldn't make too much of a difference. Just make sure that you're not running any EQ and your fronts are setup as full range/large when doing a calibration with the receiver in line. You don't want any rolloff in the receiver coloring your results. The goal is to compensate for rolloff that comes from your soundcard output and mic input.

The reason I measured with my receiver in line was because it is the only way for me to have the mic pre-amp in line and compensate for its rolloff.
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post #188 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 01:08 PM
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ok, i am going to try to keep this simple and do it all from the sound card (no hdmi).

sound card calibration

- 3.5mm mono to 3.5mm mono wire from front out on the soundcard to mic in on
the sound card.

measurement
- 3.5mm stereo from front out on sound card to RCA in front left/right on receiver
- turn off any Aud EQ on receiver
- set front speakers to large/full

again, i am trying to measure FR for my front main speakers.
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post #189 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

ok, i am going to try to keep this simple and do it all from the sound card (no hdmi).

sound card calibration

- 3.5mm mono to 3.5mm mono wire from front out on the soundcard to mic in on
the sound card.

measurement
- 3.5mm stereo from front out on sound card to RCA in front left/right on receiver
- turn off any Aud EQ on receiver
- set front speakers to large/full

again, i am trying to measure FR for my front main speakers.

For calibration leave aud eq off and fronts to large.

for measurement, you can do whatever you want. Generally EQ on so you can see your standard response curve.

Stereo-Stereo is fine for calibration as well. It only uses one channel either way, but it will prevent you from having to pick the right one =]
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post #190 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

For calibration leave aud eq off and fronts to large.

for measurement, you can do whatever you want. Generally EQ on so you can see your standard response curve.

Stereo-Stereo is fine for calibration as well. It only uses one channel either way, but it will prevent you from having to pick the right one =]

thanks,

but for sound card calibration, receiver is not in the picture correct?

it's just sound card line out to sound card mic in?
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post #191 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

thanks,

but for sound card calibration, receiver is not in the picture correct?

it's just sound card line out to sound card mic in?

Ah yes, good point =] You can have the receiver set however you want for measurements.
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post #192 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

According to Aud/Chris, Audyssey XT only applies eq correction down to A max of 10Hz..
obviously this is only true if audyssey found the -3db point of the subs to be close or below 10hz..

cheers..


In my experience this is half-true... I recently had the chance to measure another users' THT. We measured with Audyssey off vs on. Although Audyssey wasn't technically "boosting the low end" it was severely cutting everything above 30hz then raising the subwoofer level by about 8dB... So effectively it was boosting the low end by about 8dB.
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post #193 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

In my experience this is half-true... I recently had the chance to measure another users' THT. We measured with Audyssey off vs on. Although Audyssey wasn't technically "boosting the low end" it was severely cutting everything above 30hz then raising the subwoofer level by about 8dB... So effectively it was boosting the low end by about 8dB.


Which curve were you trying to match?

Audyssey or flat?
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post #194 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Which curve were you trying to match?

Audyssey or flat?

?? Sorry I don't follow the question, we were just measuring his sub with and without audyssey to see what it was doing to the FR.


Regarding the RS SPL meter mic capsule I took mine apart a couple days ago and took some pictures (haven't gotten around to posting them yet obviously though). I didn't get a clean shot of the mic capsule itself but looking at them I think there is a 'D', I wasn't sure what I was looking for though so didn't specifically take pics of the letters on the capsule

Edit. I see now that you were saying the mic capsule in the RS SPL meter is the WD vs the WM that's in the DIY mic... I had read it as the newer RS SPL meters have the WM...

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post #195 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I just took some readings from an RS 33-2050 and it measured low on the bass side as expected. I'll post results when I'm not on my phone.
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post #196 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 10:59 PM
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This is Herb from Cross-Spectrum, lennon_68 pointed me to this thread as he posted earlier. I wanted to make two comments:

First I want to show data from two Audyssey APM1 mics that I've measured (I throught I measured others but I can't seem to find the data):



I'll let that speak for itself.

Second, I wanted to confirm the quote from Chris of Audyssey that condenser mic capsules (in general) are inherently flat down to low frequencies. The issue is that the response tends to be intentionally rolled-off at certain point, presumably to avoid vibration-induced noise and pops, so you can see some variation based on the tolerances of the components in the mic pre-amps. Professional measurement mics implement the high-pass filter mechanically and many of them have responses down to 3 Hz and below. I would expect that a WM-61a out-of-the-box could also have a flat response that low, but the electronics (and possibly the back venting) can change that.
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post #197 of 375 Old 04-16-2011, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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post #198 of 375 Old 04-17-2011, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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This is an RS33-2050(old analog RS meter) compared to the EMM-6. I graphed the RS meter without correction, with C weighting, and with the calibration from the HTS page. C calibration wasn't enough as expected with the older meter, and the HTS calibration was too much. The reading was affected by the noise floor right after 9hz, so it wasn't included in the graph.


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post #199 of 375 Old 04-17-2011, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anechoic View Post

This is Herb from Cross-Spectrum, lennon_68 pointed me to this thread as he posted earlier. I wanted to make two comments:

First I want to show data from two Audyssey APM1 mics that I've measured (I throught I measured others but I can't seem to find the data):



I'll let that speak for itself.


There are a couple of APM1 microphones. One is an APM1, and the second is an APM1H. The two microphones have no model markings on them and look exactly the same. Different model receivers use different microphones, and they are not interchangeable.

How do you know which Audyssey microphone you measured?

The low end pretty much speaks for itself no matter what.
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post #200 of 375 Old 04-17-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

?? Sorry I don't follow the question, we were just measuring his sub with and without audyssey to see what it was doing to the FR.



I meant which Audyssey curve was used in the calibration routine? There is more than one curve that can be used depending on equipment.

Anyhow, was that 8 dB of extra gain measured with an SPL meter or a sweep of some kind?
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post #201 of 375 Old 04-17-2011, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I meant which Audyssey curve was used in the calibration routine? There is more than one curve that can be used depending on equipment.

Anyhow, was that 8 dB of extra gain measured with an SPL meter or a sweep of some kind?

Ah, it was whatever is built into the Onkyo PR-SC885. The 8dB was measured using REW. I realize the statement was a bit fuzzy but basically with the sub producing the same SPL in the 40-80hz range the 10-20hz range was 8dB higher with audyssey on. It looked like it had made cuts so the level of all frequencies match flat with any dips in the FR then raised the subwoofer level 8dB to compensate. Hopefully that makes more sense
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post #202 of 375 Old 04-17-2011, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post


I meant which Audyssey curve was used in the calibration routine? There is more than one curve that can be used depending on equipment.

Anyhow, was that 8 dB of extra gain measured with an SPL meter or a sweep of some kind?

Audyssey and Audyssey flat will have identical low ends. The only changes are in the high frequency ranges.
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post #203 of 375 Old 04-17-2011, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There are a couple of APM1 microphones. One is an APM1, and the second is an APM1H. The two microphones have no model markings on them and look exactly the same. Different model receivers use different microphones, and they are not interchangeable.

How do you know which Audyssey microphone you measured?

Le sigh... turns out it's neither. I forgot that Audyssey has two classes of microphones, those that are used with receivers (which you guys are talking about) and the ones used with their pro installer kits. The APM1 is the mic that comes with the installer kits. The receiver mics are ACM1 and ACM1H.

I attempted to measure the FR of one of the early Audyssey mics and couldn't get anything usable via the mic input, I haven't tried to measure any since.
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post #204 of 375 Old 04-17-2011, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The one I measured was directly in line with the EMM-6, WM-61A, and the newer RS meter. I'll measure more and include them in this thread if someone wants to send me theirs. If so drop me a PM and I'll give you info.

Alternatively, you can probably send one to CSL and get a calibration file for it as well, though it will cost money.

There are two more RS 33-2055 (newer digital meters) in the mail that I will be measuring and adding the results for as well once they get here. Thanks to MK and LTD02.

I don't mind measuring or adding any other mics that someone wants to send to add to this comparison. Shoot me a PM if you want something considered.
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post #205 of 375 Old 04-17-2011, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

The one I measured was directly in line with the EMM-6, WM-61A, and the newer RS meter. I'll measure more and include them in this thread if someone wants to send me theirs. If so drop me a PM and I'll give you info.

Alternatively, you can probably send one to CSL and get a calibration file for it as well, though it will cost money.

Actually if someone wants to send me their (newer) ACM1 or ACM1H, I'll measure it for free, I'd like to see what the FR is for my own edification. However the call will likely only go down to 20 Hz.
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post #206 of 375 Old 04-18-2011, 05:25 AM
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I ran sweeps close mic, on axis, 90 degrees, at the LP with and without Audyssey engaged and created curves of the difference of the AUD mic vs the reference mic.

I believe my results are representative of the AUD mic that comes with AVRs. I do not believe that the AUD mic is flat to single digits, as in none of them.



I will gladly send my AUD mic to notnyt, but I would like to know up front; if his results using my AUD mic are the same as his results using his AUD mic, then what would the conclusion be?

Bosso
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post #207 of 375 Old 04-18-2011, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I ran sweeps close mic, on axis, 90 degrees, at the LP with and without Audyssey engaged and created curves of the difference of the AUD mic vs the reference mic.

I believe my results are representative of the AUD mic that comes with AVRs. I do not believe that the AUD mic is flat to single digits, as in none of them.



I will gladly send my AUD mic to notnyt, but I would like to know up front; if his results using my AUD mic are the same as his results using his AUD mic, then what would the conclusion be?

Bosso

Could you now add a correction file to the audyssey mic since you know how far off it is and then it too be a reference MIC? I am talking REW of course.

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post #208 of 375 Old 04-18-2011, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Could you now add a correction file to the audyssey mic since you know how far off it is and then it too be a reference MIC? I am talking REW of course.

Sure.

As long as you have a reference mic you can use it to calibrate most any mic.

Bosso
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post #209 of 375 Old 04-18-2011, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I ran sweeps close mic, on axis, 90 degrees, at the LP with and without Audyssey engaged and created curves of the difference of the AUD mic vs the reference mic.

I believe my results are representative of the AUD mic that comes with AVRs. I do not believe that the AUD mic is flat to single digits, as in none of them.

Bosso



The Audyssey spec is +/- 2 dB from the "golden microphone" standard. That means sensitivity and FR from the standard.

Seems like your Audyssey microphone will not cause your receiver's Audyssey room correction any problems at all!
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post #210 of 375 Old 04-18-2011, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Sure.

As long as you have a reference mic you can use it to calibrate most any mic.

Bosso


True as long as the FR of the reference microphone has not changed over time.

Maybe notnyt's reference microphone correction factors are off a bit?
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