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post #361 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater
Does the F-20 need any foam inside or anything?
I did not use anything... But that might be something worth experimenting with.
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post #362 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Does the F-20 need any foam inside or anything?
Nope. Biggest issue is making sure it is all sealed up. Careful work plus PL takes care of most of that, the rest is handled by caulk and gaskets.

I kept it as simple as I could, and I think it turned out OK.
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post #363 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 09:14 AM
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got plywood, pl, and screws yesterday, just ordering some huricane nuts and bolts. and the mfw is sitting (fixed finally) waiting for use. Also need to order an amp. was thinking of this guy: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SUB250R it's cheap and in canada so the shipping is good! Got home fairly late so I wasn't able to start making cuts. I hopefully have time tonight to start making some sawdust.

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post #364 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 09:33 AM
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got plywood, pl, and screws yesterday, just ordering some huricane nuts and bolts. and the mfw is sitting (fixed finally) waiting for use. Also need to order an amp. was thinking of this guy: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SUB250R it's cheap and in canada so the shipping is good! Got home fairly late so I wasn't able to start making cuts. I hopefully have time tonight to start making some sawdust.

Matt
Good luck with the cuts! Love your screenname btw. g3 '03 and live @ astoria are two of my favorite disks I own, just need to get a good blu version if they ever make one.

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post #365 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 10:24 AM
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Good luck with the cuts! Love your screenname btw. g3 '03 and live @ astoria are two of my favorite disks I own, just need to get a good blu version if they ever make one.

Thanks!

brilliant albums (and yes there needs to be a high def version of the g3's), still one of the few musicians i need to see. have seen all my other guitar heros, just not him. I may try to convince my profs to do a "field trip" to berklee or MI or GIT next time vai is hosting a clinic (jazz major).

I am going to try to get the fiancee to help me out with the cuts and the general build (I may even let her pick the finish). Hopefully getting her physically involved in making something will get her to appreciate the interest a bit more. People always are more appreciative of something they have put some sweat effort into.

Matt

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post #366 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 10:36 AM
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not bad! yea im still trying to decide between stain and paint, I may paint the one for the rear, then put casters and stain the front one and let it double as my coffee table, and a sweet one at that

i got to see '03 twice, and then Vai came through asheville about 5 years ago solo and I checked that out too, spectacular to see in person

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post #367 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve_Vai_rules View Post

got plywood, pl, and screws yesterday, just ordering some huricane nuts and bolts. and the mfw is sitting (fixed finally) waiting for use. Also need to order an amp. was thinking of this guy: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SUB250R it's cheap and in canada so the shipping is good! Got home fairly late so I wasn't able to start making cuts. I hopefully have time tonight to start making some sawdust.

Matt

Good luck with your build. Help in the shop is a good thing, but be sure you keep the PL off your fiancée, otherwise you'll never see her in the shop again....

I'd strongly suggest you consider a different amp.

This one is $100 cheaper, readily available in Canada, and is also in stock at CSS. Most importantly, this amp does not have 4 dB of boost at 25 Hz. This is the amp I tested mine with, it is a great fit for this cabinet without any modifications.
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post #368 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 11:59 AM
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I am considering building two (or more) of these for a friends large theater.

The theater is an open basement of 10,000 cubic feet. I wanted to place them in an adjacent room and port them into the room.

I am hoping to get away with two and corner load them both in the same (only) corner. Once I get out of the corner I have a few choices along the front wall but not many for placement. He has a very old ported sub there now and the measured response is pretty smooth so I am hoping the horns would also stay close to their ground plane response.

I can EQ after we get them in with a Mini DSP.

Will two of these do a decent job in a space that large?

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post #369 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Good luck with your build. Help in the shop is a good thing, but be sure you keep the PL off your fiancée


and your hootus...

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post #370 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by t6902wf View Post

I am considering building two (or more) of these for a friends large theater.

The theater is an open basement of 10,000 cubic feet. I wanted to place them in an adjacent room and port them into the room.

I am hoping to get away with two and corner load them both in the same (only) corner. Once I get out of the corner I have a few choices along the front wall but not many for placement. He has a very old ported sub there now and the measured response is pretty smooth so I am hoping the horns would also stay close to their ground plane response.

I can EQ after we get them in with a Mini DSP.

Will two of these do a decent job in a space that large?

If the placement is right, things should work out fine. I've never tried the F-20 in a room that large, but my shop is about that big, and I've tested a few subs out there. The Shiva tapped horn I designed and built a while back was more than capable of making things get loud in the shop (~115 dB @ 20 Hz, about 10 feet from the sub) without any wall or corner loading to speak of, and it leaves a few dB on the table compared to a single F-20. Though there was still some amp and sub left at that point, I quit there because the 8' long fluorescent tubes above my head were oscillating over an inch in the middle....

A pair of 15" PA tapped horn subs I designed a while back filled a school gymnasium far larger than that without any trouble, but these are tuned higher and 5 dB more efficient than the F-20. They were measuring peaks higher than 120 dB out on the floor during testing.
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post #371 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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and your hootus...

But you gotta link that or no one gets it.... Fixed it for ya....

Seriously - PL is NASTY stuff, but it sure works great. It gets everywhere....and it does not come off skin till you wear it off or the skin beneath it dies....
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post #372 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 12:21 PM
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haha, my fault, i do wonder though, is it nastier than herculiner?

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post #373 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 12:27 PM
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not bad! yea im still trying to decide between stain and paint, I may paint the one for the rear, then put casters and stain the front one and let it double as my coffee table, and a sweet one at that



I guess it would do a great job of mixing martinis. the first time I cranked mine up beyond some benign sound levels the Center channel I had mistakenly placed on there took a header right into the floor. My kids like to sit on it to feel the boom. My elder even lies down on it for a bit. I would wager it's better than fiber
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post #374 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 12:42 PM
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I guess it would do a great job of mixing martinis. the first time I cranked mine up beyond some benign sound levels the Center channel I had mistakenly placed on there took a header right into the floor. My kids like to sit on it to feel the boom. My elder even lies down on it for a bit. I would wager it's better than fiber

yea im still contemplating this, but so far, laying down, it hasnt seemed to vibrate terribly.

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post #375 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Good luck with your build. Help in the shop is a good thing, but be sure you keep the PL off your fiancée, otherwise you'll never see her in the shop again....

I'd strongly suggest you consider a different amp.

This one is $100 cheaper, readily available in Canada, and is also in stock at CSS. Most importantly, this amp does not have 4 dB of boost at 25 Hz. This is the amp I tested mine with, it is a great fit for this cabinet without any modifications.

SWEET!!! Thank you. I didn't even see that amp listed. Even better!

Well I will be keeping a close eye on her to keep her out of harms way and of course PL free. Also LMFAO at that thread!! yes I will make sure to protect myself and the hootus to prevent contamination of myself or others. hahaha


Matt

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post #376 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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haha, my fault, i do wonder though, is it nastier than herculiner?

I don't think there is much out there that is nastier than herculiner or the other polyurethane bedliners.....but PL gets pretty close....

I've got specific pants, shirts, and shoes I wear when working with PL. Admittedly - I'm a fringe-case nutjob - I build about a half-dozen subs in a typical year (already have three done this year, and another three on deck - I'm ahead of the curve ).
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What is PL?
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post #378 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I don't think there is much out there that is nastier than herculiner or the other polyurethane bedliners.....but PL gets pretty close....

I've got specific pants, shirts, and shoes I wear when working with PL. Admittedly - I'm a fringe-case nutjob - I build about a half-dozen subs in a typical year (already have three done this year, and another three on deck - I'm ahead of the curve ).

I have a set of clothes to where while working with PL as well. It gets everywhere, and is nasty.
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post #379 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 03:43 PM
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lilmike, do the panels vibrate at all when you get crank'n?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #380 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Does a 150 lb cabinet walking itself backwards an inch during the high power sweeps/THD testing count? It was sitting on my rickety deck, so I am pretty sure that did not help things any. With music or movies? It is pretty much a non issue. Just don't park priceless china on top if it.....

For typical use, this cabinet will be fine as I built it. I probably should have used better ply, but I went with what I had available. As a result, this one is right at the edge of getting away with no bracing. I'm sure that using better ply would help.

As with anything, there is certainly room for improvement if one was so inclined. The throat panel definitely vibrates, as does the back, top and bottom. The bottom of the mouth is by far the worst, as it is essentially unsupported. If I were bracing anything, I'd concentrate on the mouth area and throat area, as well as make sure there was a brace from the approximate center of the back flare to the core portion of the fold.

Bracing is a lot more work for maybe another dB of output, especially since you won't see the effects until you're already pushing the mid-teens, which is when we noticed a bit of vibration during sine wave tests.

I say skip the bracing, just use good ply.
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post #381 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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What is PL?

PL Premium Construction Adhesive.

Horn Glue.
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post #382 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 04:21 PM
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I have a set of clothes to where while working with PL as well. It gets everywhere, and is nasty.

I didn't before I built my first tapped horn. I do now
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post #383 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 04:26 PM
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thanks lilmike...that is a brutally honest and much appreciated answer.

maybe there is a simple bracing solution, such as some optimally placed 2x2"s. i agree, the long cut panels typically used for horn bracing make it a much more complicated build with much less room for error.

maybe something like this:


LL

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post #384 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

PL Premium Construction Adhesive.

Horn Glue.

Sweeet. That's awesome. You don't even use wood glue? Or you just use this to fill the corners?
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post #385 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 04:52 PM
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Sweeet. That's awesome. You don't even use wood glue? Or you just use this to fill the corners?

The PL is the glue and caulk. It's an excellent adhesive that will supposedly fill gaps up to 10mm. It works great and is cheap. Buy the big tubes if you want to save money.
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post #386 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 05:09 PM
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In response to the bracing... I used a quality hard plywood (red oak). It's $7 more a sheet then birch at my local store but I read online it's a much harder plywood. I built to plans and when running crazy SPL tests the cabinet barely has any resonance. Of course this is just a touch test but it's pretty darn solid.

On another note.... I just finished building my second THT for a buddy who brought me the plans and I would say that the 1/2" plywood with bracing used with the THT is 99% as solid as the f-20 without any additional bracing. Both builds I consider simple, but the 3/4" without bracing make for a much simpler build. I could build 2 F-20's in the time it takes to build one THT.

If someone does decide to brace a panel on the F-20 I would recommend maybe 2 vertical panels in the mouth. I would guess that's the most prone point for vibration. However, in all honesty the box really doesn't need any bracing at all.
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post #387 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

thanks lilmike...that is a brutally honest and much appreciated answer.

maybe there is a simple bracing solution, such as some optimally placed 2x2"s. i agree, the long cut panels typically used for horn bracing make it a much more complicated build with much less room for error.

maybe something like this:


I was sort of thinking along those lines too, except that the mouth bracing needs to be in the mouth - bracing in a corner is a waste of time unless the cabinet will see loading/stress on that corner (typical of PA subs, not home subs). I was also thinking of cutting out slotted triangles that tied the three free ends of the flare panels to the sides and end of the flare.

Like I said - there is certainly some room for improvement. I can always come up with a way to complicate something. In designing this one, I wanted to see how simple I could make a bass horn and still have it work. This one works pretty well, for what it is, though it is not quite as simple a design as it looks to be. I think the added complication would definitely detract from the simplicity of the build, and more importantly, though they might be measurable, I don't think the improvements as a result of adding the bracing would warrant the additional efforts.
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post #388 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Sweeet. That's awesome. You don't even use wood glue? Or you just use this to fill the corners?

PL is the glue. It is a gap-filling construction adhesive. Great for builds like this, where airtight joints are a fundamental requirement.

Just run a bead, screw or nail the panels in place, repeat until done. I don't caulk anything afterwards. I honestly built this cabinet in a couple of evenings, writing the instructions as I went. Did the cutting the first night, completed the assembly the second night, then did the access panel and driver install the following morning. I don't think I have more than 6 hours into the construction of this cabinet (and it shows... Don't look too close...).
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post #389 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 05:32 PM
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"In designing this one, I wanted to see how simple I could make a bass horn and still have it work."

roger that. and...you have definitely hit your goal. :-)

perhaps you could have two versions (one braced, one naked). that way everyone could be happy. i don't know...just kick'n around some thoughts.

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post #390 of 1728 Old 05-25-2011, 07:42 PM
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perhaps you could have two versions (one braced, one naked). that way everyone could be happy. i don't know...just kick'n around some thoughts.

After having designed and built several horn subs including BF's THT, Tuba 30, and Autotuba I am definitely a firm believer in using good quality 1/2" ply and brace it properly. The end result is an enclosure that is vibration free and still built as light as possible. Using the 3/4" ply will create a larger enclosure due to the thicker wood which eats up volume and also vibrate more especially with the unsupported wide panels.
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