Lilmike's Cinema F-20 - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1717 Old 07-06-2011, 11:35 AM
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My subs and BFM DR's should be arriving end of week or beginning of next!!
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post #632 of 1717 Old 07-06-2011, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My subs and BFM DR's should be arriving end of week or beginning of next!!

[grabs popcorn]
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post #633 of 1717 Old 07-06-2011, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

[grabs popcorn]

For which? Subs or speakers? I can tell you the S-5000's in my new treated room sound fantastic. I have not heard them yet on movies. The clarity is better than my JBL's, the dynamics are on par, but the JBL's still win in midbass and big sound but not by much in my small room. M&K did a fantastic job with these 5000's. I am curious how low the F-20's will go cleanly(under 10%) in my room as well.
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post #634 of 1717 Old 07-06-2011, 05:44 PM
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Both! The four F-20s will be MONSTERS above 20Hz. Below, it all depends on level. They are simply out of passband....

The DR review will be much appreciated. I have always thought that there are sereious compromises with these cabs, but should offer incredible bang for buck, as far as sensitivity is concerned. They will need EQ.

Curious as to how both will do.....

JSS
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post #635 of 1717 Old 07-06-2011, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Both! The four F-20s will be MONSTERS above 20Hz. Below, it all depends on level. They are simply out of passband....

The DR review will be much appreciated. I have always thought that there are sereious compromises with these cabs, but should offer incredible bang for buck, as far as sensitivity is concerned. They will need EQ.

Curious as to how both will do.....

JSS

From what I have read it is usually taming down the tweeters to level out to the woofer. The dynamics on the 5000's are very impressive and really shocked me. They play much louder than once thought and cleanly.

I have an idea for a monster sub, basically enough for 2 subs in my theater. Can Max or Lilmike take a stab?

I will PM if interested.
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post #636 of 1717 Old 07-06-2011, 07:19 PM
 
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MK, start a new thread with your idea- I'd love to see it and watch the development.
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post #637 of 1717 Old 07-06-2011, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allensbad View Post

Hi lilmike,
So now that the MFW-15s are for the most part all gone

Well, yeah but there are still a ton of Dayton DVC's available at partsexpress.com. It's a drop-in for this enclosure and the THT and basically all builds designed for the MFW.

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #638 of 1717 Old 07-06-2011, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

From what I have read it is usually taming down the tweeters to level out to the woofer. The dynamics on the 5000's are very impressive and really shocked me. They play much louder than once thought and cleanly.

I have an idea for a monster sub, basically enough for 2 subs in my theater. Can Max or Lilmike take a stab?

I will PM if interested.

Give max allowable dimensions, SPL needed, and driver to be used, with specs......

JSS
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post #639 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 07:58 AM
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I was going to get a couple MFW-15s but just did not have it in the budget atm and now that they are gone will have to wait a couple months till I can afford 2 more DVCs. I Just picked up plywood for 2 f20s and am going to drop my 2 current dayton DVCs in them. I want to do some comparisons with my 2 THTs. I have a mini dsp and a rat shack spl meter. What soundcard do you guys recommend to get for this? My initial plan was to run the 2 THTs with 2 F20s, but if they are that close to each other I will just build a total of 4 F20s and save some floor space.

I am in the middle of remodeling my basement. I was having major issues with the walls shaking, so I doubled the drywall gluing the sheets together before dumping a ton of screws into them. This just about eliminated the noise from the walls. Do you guys have any suggestions to help make my cold air return and heater ducts to stop rattling so badly? I thought about dynomat but that stuff is expensive.
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post #640 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 08:06 AM
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the behringer uca202 is a great soundcard to use with the SPL meter you have. usb plug and single rca out to your receiver. Ive used it in testing this particular cab and had zero problems

dynamat IS expensive, I am currently considering something similar to dynamat as well. there are some decent knockoffs out there just have to find them, I will be in touch once I figure out the options. if you find anything let me know as well.

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post #641 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allensbad View Post

Hi lilmike,
So now that the MFW-15s are for the most part all gone what's the status on some of the other projects you have going on?

Al

Wood, drivers, and plans are sitting in the shop, but the elves have not shown up and built me anything yet.....

Been really busy with other stuff. Hope to get out to the shop this weekend though.
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post #642 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krbass View Post

I was going to get a couple MFW-15s but just did not have it in the budget atm and now that they are gone will have to wait a couple months till I can afford 2 more DVCs. I Just picked up plywood for 2 f20s and am going to drop my 2 current dayton DVCs in them. I want to do some comparisons with my 2 THTs. I have a mini dsp and a rat shack spl meter. What soundcard do you guys recommend to get for this? My initial plan was to run the 2 THTs with 2 F20s, but if they are that close to each other I will just build a total of 4 F20s and save some floor space.

I am in the middle of remodeling my basement. I was having major issues with the walls shaking, so I doubled the drywall gluing the sheets together before dumping a ton of screws into them. This just about eliminated the noise from the walls. Do you guys have any suggestions to help make my cold air return and heater ducts to stop rattling so badly? I thought about dynomat but that stuff is expensive.

The Behringer UCA202 is a great USB sound card for measuring speakers. It works best with XP, but will also work with Vista and Windows 7, you've just got to drop the line input level WAY down.

When I had issues with ductwork rattling, I pressed an "X" pattern into the ducts forming a slight crease at the advice of the furnace guy. I used a screwdriver and a straightedge and pressed hard enough to slightly dent the metal. It improved things considerably, but it took a few screws and some aluminum tape to fully quiet things down.
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post #643 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louisdamani View Post

Thanks lilmike. I have 8 MFW-15 drivers that are in sealed enclosures. I can use some of them for F-20's. I also have the MJ-18's sealed in a sonotube and the Kicker comp's are in the car. I was trying to find out if anything else I had could work for the F-20 because I want more output. I was thinking I could make 2 F-20's to go with the 8 sealed 15's. My theater/projector is in a open basement area so, I want more. The wife does not. She told me to enclose the theater area. LOL. For the current time I'm going to cut down the sonosub and lay the 2 18's on their sides in about 2.5-3 cubes each. I'm tired of it beating the basement ceiling/living room floor. I'm also putting a couple Fosgate 10's behind the couch nearfield. Thanks again lilmike. On a side note is $41 and some change a fair price for 3/4 AraucoPly?

Re the Arauco: I pay ~$25 a sheet when I get lucky and find it at Home Depot, otherwise it is $30 a sheet, but I have to drive a bit further. Of course, with fuel at $3.75 a gallon, and a truck that barely gets into the low teens for gas mileage when I am nice to it, where I shop matters too.... I can get 3/4" Shop Birch for $33 right down the street, but I have to call the order in a few days ahead of time.
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post #644 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Re the Arauco: I pay ~$25 a sheet when I get lucky and find it at Home Depot, otherwise it is $30 a sheet, but I have to drive a bit further. Of course, with fuel at $3.75 a gallon, and a truck that barely gets into the low teens for gas mileage when I am nice to it, where I shop matters too.... I can get 3/4" Shop Birch for $33 right down the street, but I have to call the order in a few days ahead of time.

15/32 (7ply) Arauco at Lowes is $30 whereas the 3/4 (5ply) Birch and/or Oak is $45. I have found the Arauco to be better than what I have read on many other threats (non AVS forums), but it is indeed very soft. I used Arauco on my first 4pi speaker cabinet and one of the screws spun. There were very few voids and it is easy to sand. That said, I think I like the oak 5ply better (what I am using on my first F20 build). It just feels sturdier when I drill into it (obviously), and $15 extra is not bad.

I wonder if I should build all three 4pis out of Arauco now that I have started the first one out of that wood. Does it matter if I mix and match my wood between cabinets (not within the same cabinet) for my L/C/R speakers?
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post #645 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 03:13 PM
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The oak five ply is most likely softwood with a very thin oak veneer. Except for baltic birch, most plywood is made with softwood (pine, spruce) for the inner layers. Arucoply uses really soft radiata pine instead of more dense North American wood.

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post #646 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 03:16 PM
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For rattling sheetmetal, I have used self adhesive window flashing tape. It's a sticky rubber-like material bonded to foil or plastic. I put a few layers on an obnoxiously noisy server chassis and it helped a lot. Should be good on or in ducts. It's cheap too.

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post #647 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Wood, drivers, and plans are sitting in the shop, but the elves have not shown up and built me anything yet.....

Been really busy with other stuff. Hope to get out to the shop this weekend though.

Yeah,
I have the same problem...

Thanks for the update.

Al
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post #648 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

Well, yeah but there are still a ton of Dayton DVC's available at partsexpress.com. It's a drop-in for this enclosure and the THT and basically all builds designed for the MFW.

Thanks for the update.

Looks like its double the cost, seems I missed the boat on this one :

Al
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post #649 of 1717 Old 07-07-2011, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allensbad View Post

Thanks for the update.

Looks like its double the cost, seems I missed the boat on this one :

Al

Even though it's a bitter pill to swallow having to pay an extra $70 or so to get a DVC 15, it would be extremely difficult (read=nearly impossible ) to beat what this cabinet can do with 300 watts.
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post #650 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petew View Post

The oak five ply is most likely softwood with a very thin oak veneer. Except for baltic birch, most plywood is made with softwood (pine, spruce) for the inner layers. Arucoply uses really soft radiata pine instead of more dense North American wood.

Strange, the 4' x 8' sheets of "oak" plywood were 5ply. I purchased a 2' x 4' sheet of "oak" plywood for panel 6, and it was like 12ply. I wonder if it might have been a piece of birch that made its way into the oak stack. It did look a little different, but didn't seem quite as light in color as I remember the birch being.
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post #651 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 09:17 AM
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Thoughts on the images below?



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post #652 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 11:48 AM
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Looks like that panel in the upper right at the end of that red line (top side of the mouth opening) must be cut towards the rear 1/8" too much. The only way to move that area forward 1/8" would be to add more wood on to that panel. Maybe it wasn't cut perfectly square?

Being that it's only 1/8" and these won't be seen, I prob wouldn't worry about it much. The effect on performance should be minimal so long as it doesn't effect sealing.

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post #653 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 01:24 PM
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I measured every panel and compared them to the cutout sheet before installing them. I am pretty certain everything is precise. I wonder of the "angle of installation" was not square (in 3D), but of course the other panels would not have installed properly, but they did. There are no gaps anywhere. With everything glued and screwed and dry, I am not sure there are a lot of options. But again, I can't see this affecting performance....do you?

(Looney...didn't see your whole post in my email. You and I are on the same page.)
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post #654 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post
I measured every panel and compared them to the cutout sheet before installing them. I am pretty certain everything is precise. I wonder of the "angle of installation" was not square (in 3D), but of course the other panels would not have installed properly, but they did. There are no gaps anywhere. With everything glued and screwed and dry, I am not sure there are a lot of options. But again, I can't see this affecting performance....do you?

(Looney...didn't see your whole post in my email. You and I are on the same page.)
Don't sweat it.

Under perfect conditions, with exceptional gear, you MIGHT be able to measure the difference it makes acoustically...I doubt I could.

Something wasn't quite square when cut or assembled, it happens to me too. I try to pull stuff square when/where I can, but it does not always work. As long as the joints are tight and sealed well, things should work out fine.

Don't sweat the t-nut either - the surround won't get near it. I only grind them off for aesthetic purposes...
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post #655 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 02:06 PM
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From the authority himself. I will rest easy then. I didn't spend much time looking at panel 2 and attaching it last night, as it was getting late. I knew I needed to clean the internals before putting panel 2 on, or whatever was in there would be in there forever (saw dust, etc). I will be installing panel 2 in the next hour or so.

Overall, I would say lilmike's instructions and design is very good (from a construction standpoint). It would be like jar jar telling yoda he's holding his light saber incorrectly for me to critique the design of the F20.

Thoughts on where to get the speaker wire terminals? I will order online for the next three builds, but don't want to wait for something to come in the mail on this one. Any idea on what store stocks them? I know Best Buy does not.
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post #656 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 02:20 PM
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I just had a thought: would it be possible to build an F20 with 37" wide panels and put in dual 15" drivers? This would allow one to use less wood and make fewer cuts if one were going to build two F20s anyway? I suppose with the extra width it would require bracing that the current design does not require? Just having crazy thoughts...I will try to do a better job of keeping them to myself.
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post #657 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 09:56 PM
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I have a MFW 15 driver and bash 300 plate amp en route to me and I am considering the F-20 for my first diy project. These questions are holding me up from going and buying the wood though.

1) should the opening of the horn be faced to the room or the wall? how far from the wall? (space issues)
2) is this sub a good fit for use with L,C,R Behringer 2030P?
3) this seems like a REALLY BIG sub for my little room, I am concerned that the F20 will overpower the room (16'Lx13'10"W x9H)
4) is the f20 a good choice to handle all my subwoofer needs for theater use? If you could only have one sub for a theater would this be your choice?
5)How does this sub perform at lower volumes? Does it have to be turned up to be crisp and clean ?

I am a noob to home audio in general, so if my questions seem stupid its only because of my ignorance.

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post #658 of 1717 Old 07-08-2011, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

I just had a thought: would it be possible to build an F20 with 37" wide panels and put in dual 15" drivers? This would allow one to use less wood and make fewer cuts if one were going to build two F20s anyway? I suppose with the extra width it would require bracing that the current design does not require? Just having crazy thoughts...I will try to do a better job of keeping them to myself.

Combining the two together would eliminate one side panel. Box 1 has side panel A & B, Box 2 C & D. You could take away either B or C and use just the single panel as a brace.

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post #659 of 1717 Old 07-09-2011, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alittletank View Post

I have a MFW 15 driver and bash 300 plate amp en route to me and I am considering the F-20 for my first diy project. These questions are holding me up from going and buying the wood though.

1) should the opening of the horn be faced to the room or the wall? how far from the wall? (space issues)
2) is this sub a good fit for use with L,C,R Behringer 2030P?
3) this seems like a REALLY BIG sub for my little room, I am concerned that the F20 will overpower the room (16'Lx13'10"W x9H)
4) is the f20 a good choice to handle all my subwoofer needs for theater use? If you could only have one sub for a theater would this be your choice?
5)How does this sub perform at lower volumes? Does it have to be turned up to be crisp and clean ?

I am a noob to home audio in general, so if my questions seem stupid its only because of my ignorance.


I can only offer my own observations based on the one I built. My room is 18X13X8.5.

1- I have my sub facing into the room. It can be very intense at times if not tuned and balanced into the system. You can face it into a corner or off a wall but the spacing becomes intrusive if you are using a good sized screen. I have a 130" screen and the sub sits on it's side below the screen facing towards the front row. Due to the room size there are some real challenges with acoustic treatments due to the boundry wave on the back wall. A couple of boxes of panels seem to have shaped that up fairly nicely.

2- I am sure many will probably disagree with this statement but I think most speakers can fit well provided that they are located, EQ'd, and crossed properly. I am still trying to get my current setup balanced roperly but it is getting there and I have stopped tweaking due to a coming change of mains. No use trying to figure out some speakers that are on their way out.

3- It's BIG. And it can easily overpower the room if that is what you want. It sounds really good down and balanced with the system. It does not have to be cranked heavily to impress. In fact, I find it to really sound good down in the 85db range. But that is a purely subjective judgment. But in the end that is what matters.

4- As mentioned above, it is very clean and articulate at lower volumes. If you can overlook the space and size issues than it is a good choice. You will have to be the judge as to what you want from a sub. I am perfectly happy with the one I have and am actually going to build a second when I can get the time in my current schedule. I will then have 2 laying on their sides like a stage and firing from the corners into the room.

They do fair with music, great with music that has a heavy beat. It really shines with movies. I have mine EQ'd with a Behringer DSP1124. Seems to be doing the job. Just make sure to invest in a decent mike (it does not have to be expensive to be good) and use Room EQ Wizard to make adjustments to your subs output.

I am no expert, and hopefully one of the others can help with a more refined answer. But these are my findings.
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post #660 of 1717 Old 07-09-2011, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post
I just had a thought: would it be possible to build an F20 with 37" wide panels and put in dual 15" drivers? This would allow one to use less wood and make fewer cuts if one were going to build two F20s anyway? I suppose with the extra width it would require bracing that the current design does not require? Just having crazy thoughts...I will try to do a better job of keeping them to myself.
Simply doubling the width does not quite work out the same as two separate horns. While subtle, the differences are real. I think it was explained in the Anarchy thread, don't have the time to look up the answer right now.

Anyhow - in my opinion, that's not a good plan. It would need at least a single brace throughout, though double braces would be better.

Look at the sizes of the panels. If you account for wasting ~1/3 of each sheet for each of the interior panels, you might actually use more wood. It would need bracing, some of which could come out of that scrap. The cutting accuracy is even more critical, as out of square corners result in larger errors as panels get wider. Finally, the cabinet would be too big to move, let alone build. Mine weighs ~150 lb, your double-width option with bracing would likely be over 300 lb.
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