Lilmike's Cinema F-20 - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1740 Old 08-19-2011, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louisdamani View Post
...will the 15" version of the below subwoofer work? Thanks in advance lilmike.

http://www.kicker.com/sites/default/...C101215Man.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

If those specs are accurate, those Kicker 15s will work great in this cabinet. They are basically a drop-in replacement for the MFW. The SPL plots overlay each other. Just like the MFW, the model says that there might be excursion issues right at the box tune (19 Hz) but other than that, they're power limited, just like the MFW is.

I do know that the 2010 Kicker Comp 15s have different specs. If the specs above are for the driver you have (2003 -2007 Comp Series), they will work. If you picked up drivers at Best Buy yesterday (2010 Comps), chances are they won't.
So are you saying that if one could fine an '03-'07 series Comp C15 it would be a near perfect match to the MFW? Better than the other alternatives? I saw that you posted a model of the 2010 version, but not of the 2007 version. I ask because I found a place that has about 20 of them.
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post #812 of 1740 Old 08-19-2011, 05:18 AM
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Or how about a sub with these parameters?

Electrical Q Value -Qes: 0.45
Mechanical Q Value -Qms: 4.87
Total Speaker Q Value -Qts: 0.41
Free Air Resonance -Fs: 23 Hz
Equivalent Compliance -Vas: 203 liters
One-Way, linear Excursion -Xmax: 18 mm
Efficiency -SPL 1W/1m: 87.6 dB SPL
Effective Piston Area -Sd: 810 cm^2
DC Resistance -Re: 1.8 ohm
Nominal Impedance -Znom: Dual 2/4 ohm
Thermal Power Handling -Pe: 300 W
Force Factor -Bl: 14.35

Or this one?

Resonance Frequency [fs], 21.7
Power Handling Watts, Peak (RMS) 500 (250)
Sensitivity [SPLo], dB @ 1W, 1m 90.2
Effective Excursion [EXmax™], in (mm) .45 (11.53)
DC Resistance [Re], ohm 3.32
Mechanical O-Factor [Oms] 11.20
Electrical O-Factor [Qes] .397
Total O-Factor [Ots] .516 .451 .427 .383
Equivalent Volume [Vas], ft3 (L) 9.61 (272.33)
Net Displacement, in3 (cc) 199 (3257)
Outer Frame Diameter, in 15 3/8
Hole Cut-Out Diameter, in 13 7/8
Mounting Depth, in 7 3/8
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post #813 of 1740 Old 08-21-2011, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jleonard711 View Post

So are you saying that if one could fine an '03-'07 series Comp C15 it would be a near perfect match to the MFW? Better than the other alternatives? I saw that you posted a model of the 2010 version, but not of the 2007 version. I ask because I found a place that has about 20 of them.

I think so - but I have not verified there were no production changes in that period.

Here is what the old comp specs model like:


Pretty good match, all things considered. Not sure how accurate the specs I used are going to be when compared to the actual drivers though.
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post #814 of 1740 Old 08-21-2011, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jleonard711 View Post

Or how about a sub with these parameters?

Electrical Q Value -Qes: 0.45
Mechanical Q Value -Qms: 4.87
Total Speaker Q Value -Qts: 0.41
Free Air Resonance -Fs: 23 Hz
Equivalent Compliance -Vas: 203 liters
One-Way, linear Excursion -Xmax: 18 mm
Efficiency -SPL 1W/1m: 87.6 dB SPL
Effective Piston Area -Sd: 810 cm^2
DC Resistance -Re: 1.8 ohm
Nominal Impedance -Znom: Dual 2/4 ohm
Thermal Power Handling -Pe: 300 W
Force Factor -Bl: 14.35

Qes is a little high, Vas is too low


Or this one?

Resonance Frequency [fs], 21.7
Power Handling Watts, Peak (RMS) 500 (250)
Sensitivity [SPLo], dB @ 1W, 1m 90.2
Effective Excursion [EXmax™], in (mm) .45 (11.53)
DC Resistance [Re], ohm 3.32
Mechanical O-Factor [Oms] 11.20
Electrical O-Factor [Qes] .397
Total O-Factor [Ots] .516 .451 .427 .383
Equivalent Volume [Vas], ft3 (L) 9.61 (272.33)
Net Displacement, in3 (cc) 199 (3257)
Outer Frame Diameter, in 15 3/8
Hole Cut-Out Diameter, in 13 7/8
Mounting Depth, in 7 3/8

Vas is almost getting high enough to where this is usable in the F-20, the Qes looks OK too, but without an Sd, I can not model it.

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post #815 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 12:26 AM
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I thought I read somewhere that you mentioned the ideal VAS was around 200L, no?
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post #816 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jleonard711 View Post

I thought I read somewhere that you mentioned the ideal VAS was around 200L, no?

The F-20 was designed around drivers like the MFW, which has a Vas of 460 liters. Vas is an easy parameter to evaluate, if it is over 200, the driver may work if the other parameters are right. There is a bit more to suitability than simply Vas though. Motor strength is paramount. Many of the drivers I typically work with have a bit too much motor/cone area to work well in this design, but there are drivers out there that will work fine.

For driver evaluation, I usually look at a ratio of BL^2/Re/Sd as well, this design likes that number to be around 0.080 to 0.110.

The RSS-390 HF works, it has a Vas of 281, but Qes is and BL are both higher. The power to cone ratio is 0.0786.

The Dayton DVC385-88 has a Vas of 230, and it works. It also has a slightly higher Qes and a little more BL. The power to cone ratio is 0.110.

Exodus Tempest X2 works well. Ratio = 0.0782

The Old Kicker Comp (2006 specs) works if specs are accurate. Ratio = 0.092

My old Dayton Quatro 15 works, but is getting close to too much motor. Ratio = 0.117

The TC LMS-R 15? Not a great fit, but will almost work. Definitely has too much motor. Ratio = 0.136, which seems to work better in a tapped horn

Kicker's 2010 Comp VX 15? Ratio = 0.19 Too much motor for a cabinet like the F-20, it is definitely better to use in a tapped horn.
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post #817 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 11:21 AM
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lilmike...

Did you list those drivers in the order in which you would reccomend? I chose the Reference HF, which you listed, first; but was not sure if you listed it first for a reason.
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post #818 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 11:58 AM
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I have a corner that's roughly 37" wide before it hits a concrete post. I have the remaining dimensions satisfied. And because of room layout, I cannot turn this box.

This design is showing rough 30" wide. Any thoughts on how I could make this work in that 37" space as the vent would be pushing into that concrete post 7" away. Can the vent be moved to the side or can I extend and fold the vent to a 90 degree turn off the side?

Where are the Canadian's sourcing out their driver for this setup?? I'm in Toronto Canada
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post #819 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tominizer View Post

I have a corner that's roughly 37" wide before it hits a concrete post. I have the remaining dimensions satisfied. And because of room layout, I cannot turn this box.

This design is showing rough 30" wide. Any thoughts on how I could make this work in that 37" space as the vent would be pushing into that concrete post 7" away. Can the vent be moved to the side or can I extend and fold the vent to a 90 degree turn off the side?

Where are the Canadian's sourcing out their driver for this setup?? I'm in Toronto Canada

Cut a mouth that is equal in area through the appropriate side and seal the end. Should work fine that way. You will need to modify the cutlist slightly.
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post #820 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 01:04 PM
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drivers:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...w-drivers.html

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #821 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 01:45 PM
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lilmike...

I am trying to figure out exactly what I want to do for our stage sound. I am thinking about stacking a 4pi built with an extra layer of ply on each side to make it the same width as the F20, and then just stack it on the F20. My questions are:

Would it be okay to (1) flip the F20 over with the horn on top and then (2) stack a 4pi on top of the F20 flush to the front? The reasoning behind this would be to then build 1 cloth mesh grill to cover all of the drivers of the sub and 4pi.

Thoughts?
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post #822 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 02:07 PM
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that'll put the driver at a slight downward angle, but shouldnt be anywhere near enough for any sag to take place. Why if I may ask do you want the mouth up near the 4pi? technically, the response should be better with the mouth on the floor. have you tried wiring them up and giving each orientation a listen/measurement?

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post #823 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Why if I may ask do you want the mouth up near the 4pi? technically, the response should be better with the mouth on the floor. have you tried wiring them up and giving each orientation a listen/measurement?


As mentioned above...it would be purely for aesthetic reasons; being able to use one cloth grill for everything. It was just a thought. No measuring yet, as I dont have an amp for the sub yet, nor the drivers for the pis.
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post #824 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

drivers:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...w-drivers.html

I might jump on 2 or 4 of them. Not sure I really need 4 f-20s in my 3300cu ft theater. Plus I have my Mael X easy button max.
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post #825 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 02:40 PM
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I'd jump fast,,, they will go quick if not already.
Or leave them for someone who actually needs them.

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #826 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

I'd jump fast,,, they will go quick if not already.
Or leave them for someone who actually needs them.


I already emailed him. I just need to decide on 2,3, or 4. 4 might be a tight fit. But would be nice powered by my EP2500.

I REALLY need to finish the theater before I keep building subs/speakers.
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post #827 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 02:51 PM
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I found that developing my sub and speaker system during room construction allowed for some adjustments that you will inevitably need to make to accommodate acoustic concerns. Concerns that you don't know you have until you start tuning the audio.

The "Twinseltown" Theater
Construction Thread
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post #828 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I found that developing my sub and speaker system during room construction allowed for some adjustments that you will inevitably need to make to accommodate acoustic concerns. Concerns that you don't know you have until you start tuning the audio.


I should have said, "I need to stop spending money on speakers, when I should be spending money on the room."


I built my other sub 2 years ago and it is still sitting around waiting for the room to get finished.
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post #829 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 03:06 PM
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And I should have said that my theory is only a clever disguise to buy more stuff!

The "Twinseltown" Theater
Construction Thread
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post #830 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 03:10 PM
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and i should have said that my theory is only a clever disguise to buy more stuff!

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post #831 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 05:51 PM
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They're all sold out, boo! I was all set to jump on all four of em... oh well. Now I put the F-20s on hold and actually work on the room.

***End of hi-jack!***
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post #832 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailguy View Post

They're all sold out, boo! I was all set to jump on all four of em... oh well. Now I put the F-20s on hold and actually work on the room.

***End of hi-jack!***

I know, I tried to get 2 of them but someone else bought all four. I actually figured it was you since you said you were going to contact him about getting all 4.
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post #833 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jleonard711 View Post

I know, I tried to get 2 of them but someone else bought all four. I actually figured it was you since you said you were going to contact him about getting all 4.

Nope, it wasn't me...wish it was!
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post #834 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 07:53 PM
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That's good news. Figuring out this sub was the last piece in the puzzle regarding the room build............. as this "thing" will be built into the wall....... on the concrete floor with three concrete walls flanking it. I'm going to bolt it into the house (concrete) !!

I only need to source out a driver now. Everything I have here at home doesn't really work. I have nothing that really falls into that ratio of BL^2/Re/Sd between .08 and .110. I have .22 and a 0.028 in 15" and various others in 10". But nothing that falls in that range. Boooooo Means I need to go spend money.

There use to be a place here in Toronto called the Speaker Shop owned by a guy Frank. I have no clue where that place went. Wish he was still around now.
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post #835 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 08:38 PM
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Lil Mike,
sorry I looked thru this thread to see if you discussed if the Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm would work in your F20 design and couldn't find it. i have that driver with a 500watt BASH amp in a Sonusub and thinking about building the F20 and see if i like it better for HT duty...
Here are the specs on that driver... what do you think?

Power handling: 800 watts RMS/1400 watts max VCdia: 2-1/2" Le: 1.83 mH Impedance: 4 ohms Re: 3.3 ohms Frequency range: 21 - 600 Hz Fs: 24 Hz Magnet weight: 150 oz. SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m, 87 dB 1W/1m Vas: 3.87 cu. ft. Qms: 4.48 Qes: 0.42 Qts: 0.39 Xmax: 12 mm Dimensions: Overall diameter: 15-5/16", Cutout diameter: 14-1/8", Depth: 6-1/8".

Again sorry i couldn't find where you discussed... thanks
if this driver wont work i still might buy one of the other drivers i did see discussed and use the amp...
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post #836 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 08:39 PM
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subscribing to thread
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post #837 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 09:42 PM
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txg, the -ho version won't work so well...i entered the parameters into hornresp and the response changes quite a bit.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #838 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

lilmike...

I am trying to figure out exactly what I want to do for our stage sound. I am thinking about stacking a 4pi built with an extra layer of ply on each side to make it the same width as the F20, and then just stack it on the F20. My questions are:

Would it be okay to (1) flip the F20 over with the horn on top and then (2) stack a 4pi on top of the F20 flush to the front? The reasoning behind this would be to then build 1 cloth mesh grill to cover all of the drivers of the sub and 4pi.

Thoughts?

Spreading the mouths that far apart is not a good plan. Better with both mouths in the middle, but even that is not really optimal.
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post #839 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Txgrizzly View Post

Lil Mike,
sorry I looked thru this thread to see if you discussed if the Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm would work in your F20 design and couldn't find it. i have that driver with a 500watt BASH amp in a Sonusub and thinking about building the F20 and see if i like it better for HT duty...
Here are the specs on that driver... what do you think?

Power handling: 800 watts RMS/1400 watts max VCdia: 2-1/2" Le: 1.83 mH Impedance: 4 ohms Re: 3.3 ohms Frequency range: 21 - 600 Hz Fs: 24 Hz Magnet weight: 150 oz. SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m, 87 dB 1W/1m Vas: 3.87 cu. ft. Qms: 4.48 Qes: 0.42 Qts: 0.39 Xmax: 12 mm Dimensions: Overall diameter: 15-5/16", Cutout diameter: 14-1/8", Depth: 6-1/8".

Again sorry i couldn't find where you discussed... thanks
if this driver wont work i still might buy one of the other drivers i did see discussed and use the amp...

Earlier on this page I discussed the HF. The HO is not a good fit as LTD02 said.
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post #840 of 1740 Old 08-22-2011, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

lilmike...

Did you list those drivers in the order in which you would reccomend? I chose the Reference HF, which you listed, first; but was not sure if you listed it first for a reason.

That driver will work fine. No real order per se on that list, just some I had in Hornressp already.
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