Lilmike's Cinema F-20 - Page 42 - AVS Forum
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post #1231 of 1732 Old 04-08-2012, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Do NOT use Dynamic EQ, and use the Audio Test DVD (sticky on this forum), with the -0.5dB LFE tones, and monitor voltage to the F20. Turn it up until you reach 18-20 Volts with the tones. I would not put more than 20V into it, unless you are above 23Hz, then you can push to almost 30V. the difference between 20 and 30V is about 3.5dB. You will impress the hell out of people with 12V going through this thing, far away from Xmax or any bad noises, and with plenty of clean headroom.

JSS

I have a multimeter I just don't understand how to do this.

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post #1232 of 1732 Old 04-09-2012, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinyav View Post


I have a multimeter I just don't understand how to do this.

Set the multimeter to measure AC volts and connect the test leads to the speaker terminals (at amp, terminal plate, or driver -- it doesn't matter which).

-max
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post #1233 of 1732 Old 04-09-2012, 06:59 AM
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Alright that makes sense, one more really basic question ><.
I am using a plate amp mounted to the access panel, Is there any way to do this without opening it up? If I do have to open it up I know I can't run the driver in open air like that, can I just connect the leads directly to the multimeter? Would not being connected to the driver effect the results?

Edit: Would Xmech in a horn sound like someone knocking from inside the cabinet?

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post #1234 of 1732 Old 04-11-2012, 12:16 AM
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This may be a rather novice question but I am currently trying to figure out the best location for my f-20. One of the things I did was play a movie with just the sub hooked up. Is it normal to get a constant rumble from action scenes instead of just the big hits(explosions gunfire etc).

I measured THD at all frequencies and everything seemed normal. ( I am making a wild guess that this is what that would correlate to.)

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post #1235 of 1732 Old 04-11-2012, 03:23 PM
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With just the sub, rumble is all you will get.
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post #1236 of 1732 Old 04-11-2012, 04:07 PM
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I understand it just felt like noisy rumble.. if that makes sense. Like there was some ground level noise that the effects didn't rise much above.
I am probably just being paranoid that something is wrong .

Any tests in REW that would be able to show problems like that?

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post #1237 of 1732 Old 04-11-2012, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinyav View Post


Edit: Would Xmech in a horn sound like someone knocking from inside the cabinet?

Knocking in the cabinet makes me think a bolt might be loose or something... Or maybe the plywood is separating.

The rumble is to be expected but I've never heard a knock coming from the cabinet...
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post #1238 of 1732 Old 04-11-2012, 05:41 PM
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It was during this clip, which I guess is pretty intense.
http://archive.org/details/LaunchOfS...MissionSts-123

I haven't heard it any other time so I just kinda assumed that might have been the reason.

(seriously if you play it be careful )

I popped open the side panel and all seems well.

As for the wood... the 2.5 tubes of PL and 1.5lbs of screws want to have a talk with you.

Thanks for the reply

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post #1239 of 1732 Old 04-11-2012, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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That would likely be the driver complaining.

Everything has limits....
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post #1240 of 1732 Old 04-11-2012, 05:58 PM
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Yea... I am sure you all understand though.. Won't let it happen again.

The surprising thing was that it was only one dash from minimum gain and receiver vol was -20db. Yet nothing has rumbled my room as much.

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post #1241 of 1732 Old 04-12-2012, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinyav View Post

Yea... I am sure you all understand though.. Won't let it happen again.

The surprising thing was that it was only one dash from minimum gain and receiver vol was -20db. Yet nothing has rumbled my room as much.

Double check your seal of the driver enclosure, ive hit x-mech on the MFWs in a sealed alignment and it sounds like a metal chattering sound.

If the drivers not properly sealed its probably not that hard to make it chatter.

BTW the shuttle launch has gobs of <20 content.......
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post #1242 of 1732 Old 04-12-2012, 08:15 AM
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i thought my sub was falling apart the first time i ran it. all i could hear was this horrible rattling noise and metallic chatter from over where the sub was located. walked over to investigate and found out it was the AV closet door located in front of the sub mouth (parralel, not perpendicular) rattling off its hinges in the door frame.

oh and the door knob.
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post #1243 of 1732 Old 04-12-2012, 10:23 AM
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Double check again, used a flame/air hose/ and also taped plastic film over it to see if that fluctuated. So I am near positive it's not leaking.

Something I realized I don't understand. Even with the gain knob set low is it possible a signal can send all 300watts to the driver? such as way over reference content?

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post #1244 of 1732 Old 04-12-2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinyav View Post

Double check again, used a flame/air hose/ and also taped plastic film over it to see if that fluctuated. So I am near positive it's not leaking.

Something I realized I don't understand. Even with the gain knob set low is it possible a signal can send all 300watts to the driver? such as way over reference content?

YES, entirely possible depends on the input sensitivity o the amp and the output voltage of your AVR........ I

What spl do your avr test tones measure, or what is the level when the mains play 75db?
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post #1245 of 1732 Old 04-12-2012, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinyav View Post

Double check again, used a flame/air hose/ and also taped plastic film over it to see if that fluctuated. So I am near positive it's not leaking.

Something I realized I don't understand. Even with the gain knob set low is it possible a signal can send all 300watts to the driver? such as way over reference content?

Yup. It is possible. Gain is not a limiter, only a multiplier. Until something clips, 300X1 is the same as 2X150. I have not run a speclab on that signal yet, but I'm betting it has considerable 20 Hz content, as well as plenty below that.

Biggest issue with the F-20 is not the out of band content, it is content right at the cabinet's tune. If you feed the driver lots of content right at the horn's tune, it will reach limits, and a typical highpass will not limit things at all. The F-20 is not unique in this. All horns suffer this curse. Other cabinets are different, ported boxes unload below tuning, sealed boxes (done properly) do not.

Regardless of the alignment, if you try hard enough, you can make any driver in any cabinet complain.
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post #1246 of 1732 Old 04-12-2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post


What spl do your avr test tones measure, or what is the level when the mains play 75db?

All the test tones are setup as 75db

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Yup. It is possible. Gain is not a limiter, only a multiplier. Until something clips, 300X1 is the same as 2X150. I have not run a speclab on that signal yet, but I'm betting it has considerable 20 Hz content, as well as plenty below that.

Definitely missed that until now. I understand slightly better.

Here is the speclab. At least I think I ran it right.


LL

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post #1247 of 1732 Old 04-13-2012, 07:35 AM
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*I made a post in the main sub just in case its more a general problem but I figured I should ask here as well.

Quote:


Is there anything diagnosable for causing action scenes and such to just be very constantly rumbly. I am using a lilmike cinema f-20 in a 1400cuft room.

It seems to somewhat lack something until I turn it up ~5db above reference. However at that level it gets very sloppy.
Is that just a source material problem?
Is there something I can do with my room?
Do I simply not know what LFE is suppose to be like?
Is a single f-20 not enough?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21902042

Is there anyway I can test things to make sure my f-20 is performing accuratly before I move onto room correction and such?
Sorry if this is a bit confusing/odd of a question. Just really unsure what things are suppose to sound like. I suppose my best solution would be to find someone with a system in place and to check that out.

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post #1248 of 1732 Old 04-13-2012, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinyav View Post

*I made a post in the main sub just in case its more a general problem but I figured I should ask here as well.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21902042

Is there anyway I can test things to make sure my f-20 is performing accuratly before I move onto room correction and such?
Sorry if this is a bit confusing/odd of a question. Just really unsure what things are suppose to sound like. I suppose my best solution would be to find someone with a system in place and to check that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I often get frustrated with the mix of a movie not being what I want it to be. However with some listening you should be able to find some bass effects that sound nice and tight without excessive rumble.

Now, It sounds like your a bit of a bass head, which is OK b/c I can help!

You sound like you enjoy a bit of a house curve which elevates the lower octaves of bass. Lookup house curve. Now the problem sounds like is that one F-20 might not be enough to satisfy your affinity for bass, certainly not +5db over reference. That takes some serious power and displacement! 3db is double the output so your asking one F-20 to output 266% of reference with one 15" and 300W(rated)........ Not gonna happen.

Double up for 3-6db gain from coupling and doubling displacement and power and you'll be close to what your asking......

I responded to your other thread^^
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post #1249 of 1732 Old 04-13-2012, 06:49 PM
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Thanks for the response. If everything is correct then I am happy.. for now

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post #1250 of 1732 Old 04-14-2012, 09:06 AM
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This really is a cool design and great contribution to the DIY community.

I may have to build one myself!

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post #1251 of 1732 Old 04-17-2012, 01:05 PM
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Lilmike,

How goes your new design(s) any updates?

So I was wanting to build a pair of something for under the stage, do you think the F20 is my best bet or will something new you have in the works be a good choice?

Thanks
Al
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post #1252 of 1732 Old 04-17-2012, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm, updates....

I have built a cabinet, as well as tested and listened to another one of my designs that someone else built.

With respect to mine - As usual, I learned more about what not to do....

I encountered problems with my build, my testing, and my design. Why not cover all the bases, that way you have no idea what is wrong. Honestly - I learned a lot - experience is a powerful teacher, bad experiences even moreso.

At least I did not kill the driver or my amp in the process. I did waste a LOT of plywood though. Oh well, at least I can cut it up into little pieces and keep the shop warm with it.

The other design? Well, we learned a bit about how not to brace a tapped horn, but I think that the results with that one were positive enough with that one to warrant further work and sharing in the future.

It is BIG. Bigger than the F-20 big. Like big enough that 2 guys can barely carry it big. If you have to move it - an appliance dolly is definitely a good idea.

We're still working on a few changes to that design, but it will be shared soon.

This one is a 16 Hz tapped horn loaded with a Kicker Comp VX 15. The cabinet is about 30 cubic feet (from memory), almost 6 feet tall, just over 2 feet high, and just under 2.5 feet deep. Approximately 92 dBs at a watt in, groundplane, and will take a kilowatt without complaining (with a steep highpass at 15).

We listened to a pair powered with an EP4000 bridged into 4 ohms (two 8 ohm cabinets in parallel). Quite an experience. Clipped my Omnimic at the seats long before we ran out of sub or amp. SPLs were in excess of 120 dB, distortion was still in the single-digits.

Good fun.
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post #1253 of 1732 Old 04-17-2012, 05:20 PM
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Cool, sounds like a blast! (pun intended).

Can't wait for more details!

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post #1254 of 1732 Old 04-17-2012, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Hmmm, updates....

I have built a cabinet, as well as tested and listened to another one of my designs that someone else built.

With respect to mine - As usual, I learned more about what not to do....

I encountered problems with my build, my testing, and my design. Why not cover all the bases, that way you have no idea what is wrong. Honestly - I learned a lot - experience is a powerful teacher, bad experiences even moreso.

At least I did not kill the driver or my amp in the process. I did waste a LOT of plywood though. Oh well, at least I can cut it up into little pieces and keep the shop warm with it.

The other design? Well, we learned a bit about how not to brace a tapped horn, but I think that the results with that one were positive enough with that one to warrant further work and sharing in the future.

It is BIG. Bigger than the F-20 big. Like big enough that 2 guys can barely carry it big. If you have to move it - an appliance dolly is definitely a good idea.

We're still working on a few changes to that design, but it will be shared soon.

This one is a 16 Hz tapped horn loaded with a Kicker Comp VX 15. The cabinet is about 30 cubic feet (from memory), almost 6 feet tall, just over 2 feet high, and just under 2.5 feet deep. Approximately 92 dBs at a watt in, groundplane, and will take a kilowatt without complaining (with a steep highpass at 15).

We listened to a pair powered with an EP4000 bridged into 4 ohms (two 8 ohm cabinets in parallel). Quite an experience. Clipped my Omnimic at the seats long before we ran out of sub or amp. SPLs were in excess of 120 dB, distortion was still in the single-digits.

Good fun.

Damn, did the neighbors have any comments, or the police?

JSS
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post #1255 of 1732 Old 04-17-2012, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Hmmm, updates....

I have built a cabinet, as well as tested and listened to another one of my designs that someone else built.

With respect to mine - As usual, I learned more about what not to do....

I encountered problems with my build, my testing, and my design. Why not cover all the bases, that way you have no idea what is wrong. Honestly - I learned a lot - experience is a powerful teacher, bad experiences even moreso.

At least I did not kill the driver or my amp in the process. I did waste a LOT of plywood though. Oh well, at least I can cut it up into little pieces and keep the shop warm with it.

The other design? Well, we learned a bit about how not to brace a tapped horn, but I think that the results with that one were positive enough with that one to warrant further work and sharing in the future.

It is BIG. Bigger than the F-20 big. Like big enough that 2 guys can barely carry it big. If you have to move it - an appliance dolly is definitely a good idea.

We're still working on a few changes to that design, but it will be shared soon.

This one is a 16 Hz tapped horn loaded with a Kicker Comp VX 15. The cabinet is about 30 cubic feet (from memory), almost 6 feet tall, just over 2 feet high, and just under 2.5 feet deep. Approximately 92 dBs at a watt in, groundplane, and will take a kilowatt without complaining (with a steep highpass at 15).

We listened to a pair powered with an EP4000 bridged into 4 ohms (two 8 ohm cabinets in parallel). Quite an experience. Clipped my Omnimic at the seats long before we ran out of sub or amp. SPLs were in excess of 120 dB, distortion was still in the single-digits.

Good fun.


Pics, or it didn't happen!
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post #1256 of 1732 Old 04-17-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Hmmm, updates....

I have built a cabinet, as well as tested and listened to another one of my designs that someone else built.

With respect to mine - As usual, I learned more about what not to do....

I encountered problems with my build, my testing, and my design. Why not cover all the bases, that way you have no idea what is wrong. Honestly - I learned a lot - experience is a powerful teacher, bad experiences even moreso.

At least I did not kill the driver or my amp in the process. I did waste a LOT of plywood though. Oh well, at least I can cut it up into little pieces and keep the shop warm with it.

The other design? Well, we learned a bit about how not to brace a tapped horn, but I think that the results with that one were positive enough with that one to warrant further work and sharing in the future.

It is BIG. Bigger than the F-20 big. Like big enough that 2 guys can barely carry it big. If you have to move it - an appliance dolly is definitely a good idea.

We're still working on a few changes to that design, but it will be shared soon.

This one is a 16 Hz tapped horn loaded with a Kicker Comp VX 15. The cabinet is about 30 cubic feet (from memory), almost 6 feet tall, just over 2 feet high, and just under 2.5 feet deep. Approximately 92 dBs at a watt in, groundplane, and will take a kilowatt without complaining (with a steep highpass at 15).

We listened to a pair powered with an EP4000 bridged into 4 ohms (two 8 ohm cabinets in parallel). Quite an experience. Clipped my Omnimic at the seats long before we ran out of sub or amp. SPLs were in excess of 120 dB, distortion was still in the single-digits.

Good fun.

I'll take 4 please.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #1257 of 1732 Old 04-18-2012, 01:23 AM
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I will present the pics to prove it did happen, Let me tell you they are fun Mike pulled out all the tricks on this one. I took out 4 T-6 tapped horns i was running and replaced them with these two Monstrosities.









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post #1258 of 1732 Old 04-18-2012, 03:52 AM
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Plus the added bling of having the driver hanging out the mouth.......

I like that design, easy to access driver too!
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post #1259 of 1732 Old 04-18-2012, 06:53 AM
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Damn! That is some sweet woofage!

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post #1260 of 1732 Old 04-18-2012, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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We will get a proper thread started shortly.
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