Lilmike's Cinema F-20 - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 1711 Old 04-30-2011, 06:56 PM
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Do FLH and Tapped horns have a different sonic signature below 80 Hz? I.e. do they play nice with each other. E.g. Would your design play nice with a DTS-10 or can there be some difficulty combining the two (I seem to remember people stating they had no issue combining the DTS with sealed subs, but had some issue with reflex subs [Not that I'm suggesting an FLH is a reflex sub])?

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post #122 of 1711 Old 04-30-2011, 07:14 PM
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What are the dimensions of the mfw15? Depth, magnet width, cutout diameter, outer diameter and mounting plate thickness.. Going to use them to design a sketchup model.

Thanks!
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post #123 of 1711 Old 04-30-2011, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
Do FLH and Tapped horns have a different sonic signature below 80 Hz? I.e. do they play nice with each other. E.g. Would your design play nice with a DTS-10 or can there be some difficulty combining the two (I seem to remember people stating they had no issue combining the DTS with sealed subs, but had some issue with reflex subs [Not that I'm suggesting an FLH is a reflex sub])?
Might be delay issues. I've never tried that. Every time I've run multiples, they've been identical.
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post #124 of 1711 Old 04-30-2011, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by diaz View Post
What are the dimensions of the mfw15? Depth, magnet width, cutout diameter, outer diameter and mounting plate thickness.. Going to use them to design a sketchup model.

Thanks!
I'd love a copy of that when you're done!

Sorry, mine is in the cabinet, or I'd measure it for you.
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post #125 of 1711 Old 04-30-2011, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
I'd love a copy of that when you're done!

Sorry, mine is in the cabinet, or I'd measure it for you.
Thats cool, worst case ill just approximate.. 10" depth and 10" magnet should clear it.

Ill post the sketchup when i'm done, ive been remodifying an enclosure i was working on previously, with tips from that one it should be decent.
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post #126 of 1711 Old 05-01-2011, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diaz View Post

What are the dimensions of the mfw15? Depth, magnet width, cutout diameter, outer diameter and mounting plate thickness.. Going to use them to design a sketchup model.

Thanks!

Give me till this afternoon and I can have a few measurements for you...
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post #127 of 1711 Old 05-01-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by turdlepoker View Post

Give me till this afternoon and I can have a few measurements for you...

Right on!
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post #128 of 1711 Old 05-01-2011, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diaz View Post

What are the dimensions of the mfw15? Depth, magnet width, cutout diameter, outer diameter and mounting plate thickness.. Going to use them to design a sketchup model.

Thanks!

MFW-15 Measurements:
  • Cutout Diameter: 13 7/8"
  • Driver height at highest point: 7"
  • Driver height below mounting flange: 6 1/2"
  • Flange Thickness: 1/2"
  • Surround width: 13 7/8"
  • Drivers widest point: 15 1/8"
  • Magnet Width: 6 1/2"
  • Magnet Height: 2 1/4"

Let me know if you need any other measurements. I hope this helped
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post #129 of 1711 Old 05-01-2011, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turdlepoker View Post

MFW-15 Measurements:
  • Cutout Diameter: 13 7/8"
  • Driver height at highest point: 7"
  • Driver height below mounting flange: 6 1/2"
  • Flange Thickness: 1/2"
  • Surround width: 13 7/8"
  • Drivers widest point: 15 1/8"
  • Magnet Width: 6 1/2"
  • Magnet Height: 2 1/4"

Let me know if you need any other measurements. I hope this helped

That's very cool of you - I searched everywhere for that info
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post #130 of 1711 Old 05-01-2011, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diaz View Post


That's very cool of you - I searched everywhere for that info

No problem, I have one just sitting here waiting to go into the F-20 so it was no big deal. :-)
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post #131 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

You're welcome.

As it looks currently, I'll have 4 designs in my Cinema series, each with a variation or two. I have models and ideas for folds for a large tapped horn with a single 15" driver, and an F3 below 20 Hz, but I don't have a dimensioned fold yet, nor do I have a driver to work with.

Here's the remainder of the Cinema Series (as I see things now):

Cinema F-20 (this thread) with a stretched variant that's in the works. The stretched one (F-24) will play a little lower, but might need a more capable driver.

Cinema T-6 (coming very soon - fold is done, plans are done, multiple suitable drivers in hand, my initial beta was a fail, but the current refold's beta results are great) Tapped horn with an 8" or 10" driver, cabinet is 6 cubic feet, F3 of ~28 Hz, single 4X8 sheet of 1/2" plywood. Widths will vary based on the driver used, 11.75" internally is about the limit for an unbraced cabinet, no point in going wider, the aspect ratio of the throat (width/depth) gets too large IMO.

Cinema T-12 (coming soon, model is done, fold is sketched, scaled plans are started, drivers are in hand and need a proper home) Tapped horn, 12 cubic feet, F3 of 20 Hz, 10" or 12" drivers, two sheets of ply. Widths will also be varied on this one, and it might get a stretch, all of this depends on the results of the beta build.

Cinema T-16 (a little further out, model is done, fold is sketched, but I currently have no suitable drivers to test with, though I am working on that too...)
Tapped Horn, 16 cubic feet, F3 ~17 Hz, 15" drivers, less than 3 4X8 sheets of ply. As with the T-12, widths will be varied on this one, and it might also get a stretch, this all depends on the results.

My design goals for these?
Capable of at least 115 dB in a groundplane setting within 1/2 octave of F3.
No more than a 6 dB drop from 2 octaves above F3 to F3.


Can you further elaborate on the different models? I am very excited and will have one of these built once there is more information. It seems there are 2 models for 20hz and 2 models for under 20 hz. Can you elaborate on the differences and benefits? Whats your personal opinion on the sound difference between a FLH and a TH?
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post #132 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 07:21 AM
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Also, can you elaborate on how to choose a driver for this project if you can't get the listed drivers? What specs to look for? Someone said to choose a driver with a half octave above the intended hz. What about accounting for room gain when choosing a driver to match the required frequences?

Also, what other specs are important to look for? I am in contact with a driver company that can make any driver, and high end stuff.
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post #133 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 12:04 PM
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Hawkson is on more than one DIY forum asking wide open questrions
like "what are good parameters" for amps, speakers, subs, boxes, etc.

I don't think he's a newb trying to learn.
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post #134 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkson View Post
Also, can you elaborate on how to choose a driver for this project if you can't get the listed drivers? What specs to look for? Someone said to choose a driver with a half octave above the intended hz. What about accounting for room gain when choosing a driver to match the required frequences?

Also, what other specs are important to look for? I am in contact with a driver company that can make any driver, and high end stuff.
This is the "Do It Yourself" forum, not "Do It For Me" forum. If you're looking to reverse engineer anything - you don't need to - ALL OF THE PLANS AND INFORMATION ARE POSTED IN THIS THREAD. Driver specs are not hidden anywhere - they are posted in this, as well as other threads, as well as elsewhere on the Internet. Additionally, I posted the exact Hornresp model I built from, as well as scaled plans and drawings in Sketchup format, a full cut list with sheet layout, and a full set of step-by-step instructions. All of the information you need to see if "your" driver works is right there, the rest of the instructions can be found in the educational links below this post. Look at Maxmercy's offset driver thread - I showed how to enter Thiele-Small Parameters into Hornresp in that thread.

I'm not gonna talk about room gain any more in this thread. Some people just don't seem to understand that room gain (if it is even present) does not alter a horn's length.
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post #135 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkson View Post
Can you further elaborate on the different models? I am very excited and will have one of these built once there is more information. It seems there are 2 models for 20hz and 2 models for under 20 hz. Can you elaborate on the differences and benefits? Whats your personal opinion on the sound difference between a FLH and a TH?
The threads will come when I get the cabinets designed, built, and measured.
I have wood cut for one, and drivers and plywood for another.
There is only one of me, and this is only a hobby.

When it ceases to be fun, I switch to another hobby.
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post #136 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 03:50 PM
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Good job, Mike. We all appreciate your extra hard work and sharing it freely with all of us.

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #137 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 06:19 PM
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Just wanted to let everyone know that I started the F-20 build as of late last night. I have a few panels cut and the lines drawn out. Baffle is done and I will start assembly tomorrow and hope to have it completed by this weekend.

Of course, I could certainly do it much faster but I like to do quality work and of course I have other things to do.

I assume that I'm the first to build one besides lilmike (THE CREATOR)????
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post #138 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, perhaps the first to admit it.....

Chop chop.....make with the sawdust!
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post #139 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turdlepoker View Post

Just wanted to let everyone know that I started the F-20 build as of late last night. I have a few panels cut and the lines drawn out. Baffle is done and I will start assembly tomorrow and hope to have it completed by this weekend.

Of course, I could certainly do it much faster but I like to do quality work and of course I have other things to do.

I assume that I'm the first to build one besides lilmike (THE CREATOR)????

You will like this horn. Having heard it firsthand, I can say that it will go lower than a THT. For the record, I run two THTs.....hopefully in the next few years, a similar setup to Unicron WMD, with eight or more 15" Reference HF sealed boxes. I want that 10Hz at some point.....

Funny how 40Hz was enough not too long ago.....then I took a measurement, and everything changed...

JSS
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post #140 of 1711 Old 05-02-2011, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

You will like this horn. Having heard it firsthand, I can say that it will go lower than a THT. For the record, I run two THTs.....hopefully in the next few years, a similar setup to Unicron WMD, with eight or more 15" Reference HF sealed boxes. I want that 10Hz at some point.....

Funny how 40Hz was enough not too long ago.....then I took a measurement, and everything changed...

JSS

Thanks, I sure hope so. I have built a THT for a buddy and it is def awesome. I didn't like that the build utilized 1/2" plywood. The overall build is simple but time consuming and hard to get perfect due to warped boards.

The "F-20" appealed to me because the build used 3/4" plywood, super simple to build and a little more extension. Plus I like to experiment.

Currently, I have 2 sealed 18" Ed drivers being powered by an EP4000. They have done well but its time to change things up.
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post #141 of 1711 Old 05-03-2011, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turdlepoker View Post

Just wanted to let everyone know that I started the F-20 build as of late last night. I have a few panels cut and the lines drawn out. Baffle is done and I will start assembly tomorrow and hope to have it completed by this weekend.

Of course, I could certainly do it much faster but I like to do quality work and of course I have other things to do.

I assume that I'm the first to build one besides lilmike (THE CREATOR)????

Ive got the wood! Currently waiting on some tool repairs so I can break ground... I will hopefully have completed cutsheets and baffle by this weekend too

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #142 of 1711 Old 05-03-2011, 08:32 AM
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how do you think the f-20 will pair up with say, a set of t-6 8" version either in stereo or mono? Im considering that OR the anarchy flatpack if that might give a little more punchy bass

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #143 of 1711 Old 05-03-2011, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I've never mixed sub types (when I've had multiples, mine have always matched), so to be honest - I have no idea if it will work or not.

The T-6 is 4 to 6 dB more efficient than the Anarchy, depending on the driver it is loaded with. They are considerably larger (~2X), and they give up about 5 Hz, cause nothing is ever free.

Since you have drivers and ply, I'd build the big one first - see if you need more....it is the easier build, other than the sheer size of it.
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post #144 of 1711 Old 05-03-2011, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

You will like this horn. Having heard it firsthand, I can say that it will go lower than a THT. For the record, I run two THTs.....hopefully in the next few years, a similar setup to Unicron WMD, with eight or more 15" Reference HF sealed boxes. I want that 10Hz at some point.....

Funny how 40Hz was enough not too long ago.....then I took a measurement, and everything changed...

JSS

Your drivers will work great in the F-20....
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post #145 of 1711 Old 05-03-2011, 11:18 AM
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I know....and they would ROCK, 'cept I want that 10Hz.....but let's see....I need new mains and center before I can even dream of upgrading subs...they are now the weakest link in the chain....

There are designs that have reached spreadsheet stage for CBTs for LCR.....with good drivers (at least by Zaph standards)

Hopefully in the next 18 months....and yes, there will be a thread.

JSS
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post #146 of 1711 Old 05-03-2011, 02:59 PM
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Quick question.... I plan to build 2 of these but for right now I'm just building one (I kinda wanted to test before I invested in a second.) I had planned to power both with one channel of my EP4000. Eventually, I'll build another pair and use the other channel to power those. Haha, maybe I'm getting ahead if myself...

My question is: would it be ok to just use one channel of the EP4000 to test this single F-20? I think the it's rated at 1,400 watts per channel at 4ohms. I figured I would ask before I burn-up the voice coil.

If not, looks like I'll be building a second very soon.

Thanks
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post #147 of 1711 Old 05-03-2011, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

I know....and they would ROCK, 'cept I want that 10Hz.....but let's see....I need new mains and center before I can even dream of upgrading subs...they are now the weakest link in the chain....

JSS

I had the same problem... However, not anymore... Today Santa brought me a gift... Actually 3 gifts

JBL 3677's brand new from Full Compass! Finally decided to man up and get some Pro speakers... Thanks "MKtheater" if your reading. You have been a bad influence on me.



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post #148 of 1711 Old 05-04-2011, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turdlepoker View Post

Quick question.... I plan to build 2 of these but for right now I'm just building one (I kinda wanted to test before I invested in a second.) I had planned to power both with one channel of my EP4000. Eventually, I'll build another pair and use the other channel to power those. Haha, maybe I'm getting ahead if myself...

My question is: would it be ok to just use one channel of the EP4000 to test this single F-20? I think the it's rated at 1,400 watts per channel at 4ohms. I figured I would ask before I burn-up the voice coil.

If not, looks like I'll be building a second very soon.

Thanks

Remember you're feeding a 225-watt rated driver with an amp that can easily deliver over twice that....

You will make smoke if you're not careful.
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post #149 of 1711 Old 05-04-2011, 08:24 AM
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I got curious looking at this so I plugged in the AV15-x to see how it models.



looks pretty good actually, is there going to be any problem using a woofer with 4x the power handling and quite a bit more xmax in this horn?
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post #150 of 1711 Old 05-04-2011, 08:31 AM
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With 4x power handling, it means you can prob get 4-5 more dB out of it with the AV driver....as long as you stay within Xmech....the AV driver isn't as sensitive according to graph above (if it is a 2V, 2Pi graph) so you will need more power for the same dB compared to the MFW-15....

This horn is remarkable in the amount of drivers that work well in it...

JSS
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