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post #1711 of 1733 Old 05-04-2014, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDaBomb View Post

Not being too knowledgeable in all of this.. what would be the major difference in using any old 15" driver, compared to the MFW-15 in this enclosure.. I know you have to worry about Q ratings and such in most enclosures, but does it matter as much in a horn? I basically want something clean and musical, not one note bass.. this is for a two channel music setup so I do want punchy bass of course, but don't need bone crushing bass down below 20hz or anything like that.

I encourage you to buy an SI 15 and be done with it. You are over complicating things.
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post #1712 of 1733 Old 07-18-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by the-jessman View Post
Another thing to think about, and this is purely my opinion, but if this is for a strictly music system a horn loaded sub may not be the best choice. Horns don't have the flatest response compared to directly radiating designs like ported boxes, TQWT, sealed, etc. They also tend to have higher and widely varying group delay. If it were me I'd be looking at something like a large low tuned (LLT) ported enclosure or a TQWT. A Martysub, for example, has less than 10 ms of group delay once you get above 30 Hz and has very even response up to 130 Hz or so. Its not quite as efficient as a horn, but its a lot better than the sealed 12" you have now.

Help me out here. I have been reading the build threads for various horns and sealed, and seen commentary about the martysubs:

For someone building a 18'x22' room on a second floor for his home theater. Not caring about music performance at all, wanting extension at least to 20hz, then second priority punchiness, what type of enclosure is for me?

I mean, does the delay factor you mention above at really low frequencies end up affecting performance of say the F-20 or microwrecker or equiv. a lot? Were you making the case that for music it's more important for there not to be delay than audio that synchronizes with video? I am confused, and want a recommendation based on my parameters above please.

Thanks so much!
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post #1713 of 1733 Old 07-18-2014, 12:20 PM
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you'd be happy with either the wrecker/F20 horns or a ported sub (aka marty)

Ported subs are easier to design and build, and have almost all the advantages of horn loaded subs. Horns are cleaner and more effortless in the range they are designed for usually, but you might need to tame them a bit with good set up or EQ. Horns are loudest, ported would be second loudest. Both are louder than sealed subs.

Everyone that has tried one of these designs seems to really like it, and the majority of people have larger spaces like yours. I'd take that info and suggest you'd be happy. But again, you'd be happy with the ported sub too.

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post #1714 of 1733 Old 07-18-2014, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the-jessman View Post
Like stormwind said, horns can be very picky about drivers. Compare this response graph to the SI graph above:

This is the response from a Sundown SA-15. Its a quality driver and performs well, just not in horns. Peaky response like this is what you can get if you don't use the right driver.

Another thing to think about, and this is purely my opinion, but if this is for a strictly music system a horn loaded sub may not be the best choice. Horns don't have the flatest response compared to directly radiating designs like ported boxes, TQWT, sealed, etc. They also tend to have higher and widely varying group delay. If it were me I'd be looking at something like a large low tuned (LLT) ported enclosure or a TQWT. A Martysub, for example, has less than 10 ms of group delay once you get above 30 Hz and has very even response up to 130 Hz or so. Its not quite as efficient as a horn, but its a lot better than the sealed 12" you have now.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
you'd be happy with either the wrecker/F20 horns or a ported sub (aka marty)

Ported subs are easier to design and build, and have almost all the advantages of horn loaded subs. Horns are cleaner and more effortless in the range they are designed for usually, but you might need to tame them a bit with good set up or EQ. Horns are loudest, ported would be second loudest. Both are louder than sealed subs.

Everyone that has tried one of these designs seems to really like it, and the majority of people have larger spaces like yours. I'd take that info and suggest you'd be happy. But again, you'd be happy with the ported sub too.
Thanks M,

I guess after all I've read I feel comfortable that a sealed box will give me the extension and smoothness, but being in my space when other guys talk about how monster the horns performed in their LARGER spaces I become concerned that I would build something that would blow me out of the water. But I suppose I could always tame it in the EQ if it ever got to the point that the performance was disassembling my house.

Another way of confirming what I am thinking would be for me to ask: does there ever come an instance where the sealed box is preferable given these priorities I listed before to the horn or martysub designs due to the room's size being too small?

A follow up questions: Microwrecker drops off right there around 20hz. From a guy that currently owns a single M&K V-1250 THX sealed subwoofer, which I believe drops off well above that, am I going to care? Will I simply be blown away by the extension to 20? Martysub not as attractive to me for some reason? Martysub more responsive than horns make for better HT sub?
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post #1715 of 1733 Old 07-18-2014, 05:32 PM
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You could go all the way with a gjallerhorn

It's a total monster. And usable output at 10hz.
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post #1716 of 1733 Old 07-19-2014, 05:26 AM
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Micro Wrecker is a fun sub. Needs a Hpass at 17hz and can get very loud. While it rolls off at 20hz with room gain you wont notice it. Ported subs are a good option also. Just a matter of how much room you have. If you have the room and want 15hz and up go horned. If your limited on room go ported. If you have minimal room sealed. I like the sensitivity of horned subs. BUT power is cheap these days so that doesnt mean much to all.
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post #1717 of 1733 Old 07-19-2014, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Micro Wrecker is a fun sub. Needs a Hpass at 17hz and can get very loud. While it rolls off at 20hz with room gain you wont notice it. Ported subs are a good option also. Just a matter of how much room you have. If you have the room and want 15hz and up go horned. If your limited on room go ported. If you have minimal room sealed. I like the sensitivity of horned subs. BUT power is cheap these days so that doesnt mean much to all.
Thank you,

I have tried to read so many threads. About horned and ported and sealed. I feel like I have learned so much. But ultimately, I am no expert, and figuring out which fit is best for me is so hard. Unless I had the resources to try them all, which I do not. So with that caveat, I think that I like the idea of the tapped horn. Clearly there are some designs that are definitive in their capabilities. I am currently hung on one snag; room.

I am redesigning the equipment and trying to go all DIY as much as possible in this existing home theater room that is in a home I purchased last year. The room sitting area is 16' wide x 14' deep. Not the size I would like but it's what I've got. On the screen wall there is a bump out on the right corner to frame in a chimney running from the fireplace on the 1st floor. the depth of that bump out is 23". I think that I would like to create a screen wall in this depth and let it hide the subs and LCRs. So since I'm a n00b I don't feel comfortable designing my own enclosures, and wondered if there is something out there somebody is aware of that is only 23" deep at whatever height or width?

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post #1718 of 1733 Old 08-14-2014, 04:14 PM
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OK . So I have had the 2 F20 subs built for a few days. I hooked up my new Inuke3000dsp and messed around with it a little. All I did was put the HP at 20hz and the LP at 200hz (not exactly sure where to set the LP). As far as all of the other adjustments, they seems a little over my head at the moment. I hope I can find somewhere to learn how to set it up properly.


Anyway, after reading all of the posts about this sub I was expecting to be blown away. I am having a little miniature freak out. I highly doubt it is the subs and I just need some reassurance. I have them in the basement which is not finished yet as I am getting ready to drywall for the theater next. Its just concrete and studs at the moment and approx. 900 sqft of open area. There is some bass but its not very clean or crazy. Should I really even be expecting anything at the moment or not?? I know how acoustically unfriendly this environment is right now, but I'm just looking for someone to make me feel better about this.


Some input would be much appreciated. THANKS
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post #1719 of 1733 Old 08-14-2014, 04:19 PM
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post #1720 of 1733 Old 08-14-2014, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuj32 View Post
OK . So I have had the 2 F20 subs built for a few days. I hooked up my new Inuke3000dsp and messed around with it a little. All I did was put the HP at 20hz and the LP at 200hz (not exactly sure where to set the LP). As far as all of the other adjustments, they seems a little over my head at the moment. I hope I can find somewhere to learn how to set it up properly.


Anyway, after reading all of the posts about this sub I was expecting to be blown away. I am having a little miniature freak out. I highly doubt it is the subs and I just need some reassurance. I have them in the basement which is not finished yet as I am getting ready to drywall for the theater next. Its just concrete and studs at the moment and approx. 900 sqft of open area. There is some bass but its not very clean or crazy. Should I really even be expecting anything at the moment or not?? I know how acoustically unfriendly this environment is right now, but I'm just looking for someone to make me feel better about this.


Some input would be much appreciated. THANKS
They are quite placement sensitive, as with most horns. I would try putting them in a corner facing along a wall. Front left or front right. With the mouth facing towards the listening position. Do not toe them in, straight against the wall on the wide side.

My pair together on the left side of the room is wayyy more impressive then if I spread them out.
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post #1721 of 1733 Old 08-14-2014, 08:25 PM
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OK I will try these suggestions. However I am somewhat limited with final placement as I want these to blend in with the front screen wall with shelves or cabinets on the side. You can see in the picture what my plan is suppose to look like. The F20s are below the screen.

However if the sound suffers that much from this, I might have to rethink it all.... (but I really don't want toooo)
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post #1722 of 1733 Old 08-14-2014, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuj32 View Post
OK . So I have had the 2 F20 subs built for a few days. I hooked up my new Inuke3000dsp and messed around with it a little. All I did was put the HP at 20hz and the LP at 200hz (not exactly sure where to set the LP). As far as all of the other adjustments, they seems a little over my head at the moment. I hope I can find somewhere to learn how to set it up properly.


Anyway, after reading all of the posts about this sub I was expecting to be blown away. I am having a little miniature freak out. I highly doubt it is the subs and I just need some reassurance. I have them in the basement which is not finished yet as I am getting ready to drywall for the theater next. Its just concrete and studs at the moment and approx. 900 sqft of open area. There is some bass but its not very clean or crazy. Should I really even be expecting anything at the moment or not?? I know how acoustically unfriendly this environment is right now, but I'm just looking for someone to make me feel better about this.


Some input would be much appreciated. THANKS
Placement matters (as it does with all subs). Boundary reinforcement is your friend too.

What's the slope on your highpass?

Can you measure SPL? A quick sweep of each to make sure that they're both working properly is a good first step.
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post #1723 of 1733 Old 08-14-2014, 10:27 PM
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do you have the gains turned all the way up?
are you getting any lights on the amp?
how loud are you testing?
is your subwoofer output on the avr turned on?
is your subwoofer output on the avr at +0 (i.e. non-negative)?
do you have any other eq running in the avr?
where do you have the low pass filter set in the avr (80hz?)


turn the low pass filter in the inuke OFF. the low pass will be handled in your avr.


as mike said, you may also be set up right in a massive room null, which could suck all the life right out of your bass.


so there is lots to look at, but none of it is complicated. you'll get there.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #1724 of 1733 Old 08-15-2014, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
Placement matters (as it does with all subs). Boundary reinforcement is your friend too.

What's the slope on your highpass?

Can you measure SPL? A quick sweep of each to make sure that they're both working properly is a good first step.




Ill have to get the numbers when I get home on the slope. I might not have even had one set yet as I didn't know what to put it at.


I need to get a MIC so I can test the SPL. All of this is new to me with the measurements and pro amps and all that.


Any suggestions on where and what mic to get and software etc (ive heard everyone talk about REW I think..?
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post #1725 of 1733 Old 08-15-2014, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
Placement matters (as it does with all subs). Boundary reinforcement is your friend too.

What's the slope on your highpass?

Can you measure SPL? A quick sweep of each to make sure that they're both working properly is a good first step.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
do you have the gains turned all the way up?
are you getting any lights on the amp?
how loud are you testing?
is your subwoofer output on the avr turned on?
is your subwoofer output on the avr at +0 (i.e. non-negative)?
do you have any other eq running in the avr?
where do you have the low pass filter set in the avr (80hz?)


turn the low pass filter in the inuke OFF. the low pass will be handled in your avr.


as mike said, you may also be set up right in a massive room null, which could suck all the life right out of your bass.


so there is lots to look at, but none of it is complicated. you'll get there.



- The most I have turned the gain up so far is about 2 oclock.


- Ive seen it go up to about 2-3 lights at most.


- As far as loudness - The speakers are getting pretty loud, but the bass from the subs is not very.."articulate" I guess you could say.


- The sub on the avr is turned on. and the output is up all the way.


- there aren't any other equalizers running. I have something called "enhanced" and "extra bass" on. Doesn't seem to do much.


- as far as the Low pass in the avr - Im not sure if it has that setting(unless I need to hook it up to a monitor to get extra access into the menu). This could be half the problem. I am using a Yamaha RXV677 (brand new) that a friend let me borrow (as I only have vintage audio gear at the moment). My personal opinion is that this thing kind of SUCKS after what I did last night. I built the SEOS TEMPEST about a month ago. I thought I would do an AB test with them last night. In an upstairs room where they are, waiting to be put downstairs upon finishing, I hooked them up to the Yamaha last night. They sounded nice and clear with good imaging, but the bass sounded strained and non existent...and just straight horrible to be honest. I hooked BACK up my Sansui QRX-9001 that is most likely out of spec, but still decent. This is what I have been using since I built them.....and it sounds AMAZING as usual. Good full sound and literally shakes the room. Sounds like there are subs present.

I plan on purchasing the Denon x4000 soon as it seems to be a popular choice. But I'm holding off to see if anyone has any other suggestions. I just want to make sure that I choose the right AVR. I'm not too concerned with price. This is my first big set up and I just want to do it right.


Could this be affecting the subs performance possibly, if its just a weak Receiver?
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post #1726 of 1733 Old 08-15-2014, 09:53 AM
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"They sounded nice and clear with good imaging, but the bass sounded strained and non existent...and just straight horrible to be honest."


were the mains set to small or large? maybe the settings in the avr are set in an unfamiliar way. when set to "small" or "satellite" the bass under the high pass filter will be sent to the sub, so there will be no bass in the mains.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #1727 of 1733 Old 08-15-2014, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuj32 View Post
- The most I have turned the gain up so far is about 2 oclock.


- Ive seen it go up to about 2-3 lights at most.


- As far as loudness - The speakers are getting pretty loud, but the bass from the subs is not very.."articulate" I guess you could say.


- The sub on the avr is turned on. and the output is up all the way.


- there aren't any other equalizers running. I have something called "enhanced" and "extra bass" on. Doesn't seem to do much.


- as far as the Low pass in the avr - Im not sure if it has that setting(unless I need to hook it up to a monitor to get extra access into the menu). This could be half the problem. I am using a Yamaha RXV677 (brand new) that a friend let me borrow (as I only have vintage audio gear at the moment). My personal opinion is that this thing kind of SUCKS after what I did last night. I built the SEOS TEMPEST about a month ago. I thought I would do an AB test with them last night. In an upstairs room where they are, waiting to be put downstairs upon finishing, I hooked them up to the Yamaha last night. They sounded nice and clear with good imaging, but the bass sounded strained and non existent...and just straight horrible to be honest. I hooked BACK up my Sansui QRX-9001 that is most likely out of spec, but still decent. This is what I have been using since I built them.....and it sounds AMAZING as usual. Good full sound and literally shakes the room. Sounds like there are subs present.

I plan on purchasing the Denon x4000 soon as it seems to be a popular choice. But I'm holding off to see if anyone has any other suggestions. I just want to make sure that I choose the right AVR. I'm not too concerned with price. This is my first big set up and I just want to do it right.


Could this be affecting the subs performance possibly, if its just a weak Receiver?
There are far too many variables here....

Unknown speaker with an unknown placement in an unfinished room being driven by an unknown receiver feeding an unknown amp.

If you're trying to evaluate how a speaker performs, make sure you know what signal is getting sent to it. Use a KNOWN GOOD source with no processing at all. Use an amp with no processing at all. Listen to material you know well. Do this at reasonable levels (under 90 dB, which is plenty loud) and things will be fine for testing. Ideally, this listening and testing is being done in a familiar setting.

When I test (by listening to things), I use a modest amp that I KNOW is flat beyond my ability to measure, a sound card that is almost as flat, and no processing whatsoever. I rely on source material that I am very familiar with. I try to position speakers favorably, and I try to have another speaker that I know well to A/B compare with.

Honestly - I find it easier to measure things.

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post #1728 of 1733 Old 08-17-2014, 06:50 AM
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Ok I have been moving some things around. And changing some settings. One thing I have noticed is that they seem to sound better when I have the mouth facing the back wall. About 6-8 inches off the back wall. Has anyone else done this? I think I remember reading some people have.


I will be ordering the Denon soon, and hopefully I can make some more adjustments with that receiver and just get better performance from it in general as it seems to be a much better unit. And I will just be patient and wait till I have the drywall and carpet in as I'm sure that makes a pretty big difference. No point in getting it set up and calibrated now for an all concrete room...


Hopefully I'll be back soon with some more results.
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post #1729 of 1733 Old 08-23-2014, 07:36 AM
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So I still have 2 MFW-15s left that I haven't used. My brother-in-law and my sister are down with me putting subs in his attic and venting them into his living room through the ceiling (small house). I personally have 4 F20s in my basement theater. Anyway thoughts on what I can put up in his attic that is cheap (they don't have much money)? The F20 measures too large to fit through his attic opening (I guess I could always cut it open more to get two up in there and then patch it). Is there a taller refold out there that lowers the other dimensions from 29"x20"? Or some other horn I could use the spare MFW-15s in?
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post #1730 of 1733 Old 08-23-2014, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post
So I still have 2 MFW-15s left that I haven't used. My brother-in-law and my sister are down with me putting subs in his attic and venting them into his living room through the ceiling (small house). I personally have 4 F20s in my basement theater. Anyway thoughts on what I can put up in his attic that is cheap (they don't have much money)? The F20 measures too large to fit through his attic opening (I guess I could always cut it open more to get two up in there and then patch it). Is there a taller refold out there that lowers the other dimensions from 29"x20"? Or some other horn I could use the spare MFW-15s in?
I think the MFW-15's work in the THT-LP also.
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post #1731 of 1733 Old 08-23-2014, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post
So I still have 2 MFW-15s left that I haven't used. My brother-in-law and my sister are down with me putting subs in his attic and venting them into his living room through the ceiling (small house). I personally have 4 F20s in my basement theater. Anyway thoughts on what I can put up in his attic that is cheap (they don't have much money)? The F20 measures too large to fit through his attic opening (I guess I could always cut it open more to get two up in there and then patch it). Is there a taller refold out there that lowers the other dimensions from 29"x20"? Or some other horn I could use the spare MFW-15s in?
How big's the opening? There are a few guys that reduced the internal width of the F-20 and had decently good results.

Getting any big bass horn into an attic in one piece will be a challenge.

Perhaps you could use them in a manifold-loaded ported box?

(insert "Marty" comment here...)
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post #1732 of 1733 Old 08-24-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post
So I still have 2 MFW-15s left that I haven't used. My brother-in-law and my sister are down with me putting subs in his attic and venting them into his living room through the ceiling (small house). I personally have 4 F20s in my basement theater. Anyway thoughts on what I can put up in his attic that is cheap (they don't have much money)? The F20 measures too large to fit through his attic opening (I guess I could always cut it open more to get two up in there and then patch it). Is there a taller refold out there that lowers the other dimensions from 29"x20"? Or some other horn I could use the spare MFW-15s in?

I wouldn't plan them in an attic unless you have them firing out along a wall. They are fairly placement sensitive and you might be setting yourself up for failure with a set position.
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post #1733 of 1733 Old 10-08-2014, 05:14 PM
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Does anyone think it is necessary to place the F20s on rubber feet of some sort. I am using 2 F20s that will act as somewhat of a stage on my front screen wall as you can see in the picture. Just wondering if they will be okay just sitting on the carpet or if they should be isolated from the floor a bit. I still dont have carpet in yet. I am just trying to figure out this minor detail before I start building the front screen wall.
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