Lilmike's Cinema F-20 - Page 59 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1741 of 1768 Old 12-08-2014, 04:52 PM
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Just reporting, with a heavy heart, that the Dayton DVC in my F20 "Macho Nacho" died in the line of duty a few months ago. I haven't yet had the heart to recover the corpse. I imagine the sealed enclosure still smells of death.


Had me or my drunken guests been paying attention, we might have heard the screams of agony before it was too late. My only solace is knowing that a heart transplant is possible, and Macho Nacho will, one day, live again to vibrate tools and paint cans onto the floor of my garage.
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post #1742 of 1768 Old 12-09-2014, 05:12 PM
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post #1743 of 1768 Old 12-09-2014, 07:29 PM
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I purchased 2 of the MFW-15's a few years ago from Eric, never used them at that time, and then moved to a new house with no theater yet.....at least THIS time I'll be building my room to my liking, and have something that I'll be able to use at anytime, instead of hearing " Turn it down!" all the time.
Was going to do ported when I got them....the room will be ~ 1600cu, so a modest amp and 2 F-20's should be plenty.

I'm actually excited to get the room started so I can build the subs!

Thanks for sharing all this info lilmike, this is a LONG thread!

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #1744 of 1768 Old 12-17-2014, 06:48 PM
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and the dead rise...

Just popping in to say I put together a pair of these over the weekend for a friend with the RS HiFis.
I thought about folding an old model I had, until I remembered about this one, and saw that it was about the same as what I had hacked out.

Thanks for doing all the grunt work mikey.

Two in a room with no dimension over 12ft. He seems happy.
I have already put thoughts into his head about what a B&C 21" horn could do, but I am going to use one of mine this time...
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post #1745 of 1768 Old 12-17-2014, 07:00 PM
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Sweet!

______________________________________________
Joe = LFE Addict
Joe's LOWARHORN build
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post #1746 of 1768 Old 12-18-2014, 11:50 AM
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I am trying to deguise these as antique trunks.... So can I make them downfiring or fire toward the wall? If so how far does the mouth of the horn have to be from the wall or floor?
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post #1747 of 1768 Old 12-31-2014, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post
and the dead rise...

Just popping in to say I put together a pair of these over the weekend for a friend with the RS HiFis.
I thought about folding an old model I had, until I remembered about this one, and saw that it was about the same as what I had hacked out.

Thanks for doing all the grunt work mikey.

Two in a room with no dimension over 12ft. He seems happy.
I have already put thoughts into his head about what a B&C 21" horn could do, but I am going to use one of mine this time...
Damn... thought I had checked out for a bit...

No thanks needed, thank you.

Soho... Damn, I am ever glad to see you checking in. Huge props to you, for had you not challenged me to learn what I still needed to back when you did, I never would have accomplished what I have managed since. More importantly, I would not have realized that I was only looking at the tip of the iceberg when I thought I understood far more. Hope all is well.

Glad the F-20s deliver.
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post #1748 of 1768 Old 12-31-2014, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte_II View Post
I am trying to deguise these as antique trunks.... So can I make them downfiring or fire toward the wall? If so how far does the mouth of the horn have to be from the wall or floor?
That's a BIG trunk.

Give them some room. Make sure that the immediate area the mouth is firing into is greater than the area of the mouth.

To use numbers, I'd make sure that the mouth was no closer than ~18" from a boundary.
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post #1749 of 1768 Old 12-31-2014, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
That's a BIG trunk.

Give them some room. Make sure that the immediate area the mouth is firing into is greater than the area of the mouth.

To use numbers, I'd make sure that the mouth was no closer than ~18" from a boundary.
Yeah, think big steamer trunks...
Hmm... That wont work. WAF, wasnt an issue when I was single!!! LOL

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post #1750 of 1768 Old 02-25-2015, 02:46 PM
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post #1751 of 1768 Old 03-27-2015, 09:32 AM
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I would like to build two F20s and make them look like a continous long cabinet at the front of my HT (with some shelf space in the middle). This would mean laying the F20s on their 20" side and moving the mouth opening to the 29" side.

1. Since the drivers will be facing down, are any of the recommended 15" woofers better suited to avoid cone sag?

2. What's the best way to move the mouth cutout to the 29" side?

Thanks,
Darrell
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post #1752 of 1768 Old 03-27-2015, 11:46 AM
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This is a folded horn. You cant just switch the mouth to another side. That would require redesigning the entire horn...
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
I would like to build two F20s and make them look like a continous long cabinet at the front of my HT (with some shelf space in the middle). This would mean laying the F20s on their 20" side and moving the mouth opening to the 29" side.

1. Since the drivers will be facing down, are any of the recommended 15" woofers better suited to avoid cone sag?

2. What's the best way to move the mouth cutout to the 29" side?

Thanks,
Darrell

Yamaha RX-A700, Samsung BD, Sonos Connect Carver M-400X powering My DIY front mains (2 Vifa PL17's, Vifa XT25 with 3rd order HP, 2nd order LP (4th order LR acoustic)). Samson 1200 powering a pair of Dayton RSS 15 HF subs in 4.5ft sealed cabs.Still have (bought in 1993) the Klipsch RC- 7center and a pair of Bose 305's that were laying around from somewhere...
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post #1753 of 1768 Old 03-27-2015, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte_II View Post
This is a folded horn. You cant just switch the mouth to another side. That would require redesigning the entire horn...
I'm pretty sure he talked about doing that somewhere in this long thread, but I was having trouble finding it.
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post #1754 of 1768 Old 03-27-2015, 12:29 PM
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Found it:


Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311
This is the only modification that I can see will allow for a mouth on the side of the F20 that is of the same dimensions as the original. Does anyone see any issues with this design not working as well as the original design? Feedback is greatly appreciated! If anyone is able to model it, that would be even better (that is not a capability I have).

Nope, do not do it that way.

Will post a sketchup of what I'd suggest as soon as I can.

And.....moments later.....



All of the updated Sketchup files are in the attached zip.

This will work, but it will be a bit different that what I made, as the horn path is shortened by a foot or so. I am not planning on building one to check it and see if it works OK, but changing the horn length by a foot in the model suggests that things will be fine.
<a class="attachment loginreq" href="/attachments/9708" title="">Cinema F-20.zip 48.2529296875k . file
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post #1755 of 1768 Old 03-27-2015, 05:29 PM
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Yes he refolded it for him. It is no longer the same design...

Yamaha RX-A700, Samsung BD, Sonos Connect Carver M-400X powering My DIY front mains (2 Vifa PL17's, Vifa XT25 with 3rd order HP, 2nd order LP (4th order LR acoustic)). Samson 1200 powering a pair of Dayton RSS 15 HF subs in 4.5ft sealed cabs.Still have (bought in 1993) the Klipsch RC- 7center and a pair of Bose 305's that were laying around from somewhere...
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post #1756 of 1768 Old 03-27-2015, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte_II View Post
Yes he refolded it for him. It is no longer the same design...
Actually, I didn't.

All I did was calculate a side-mouth of an appropriate area for the horn and draw that on the horn side. As I recall (and I didn't go back and read the thread) dutch had a smaller rectangular opening that would have choked the horn, hence my saying don't do that. There are other changes too, like the side panel is full height, not clipped.

It should all be in the plans.
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post #1757 of 1768 Old 03-27-2015, 06:12 PM
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Thanks Mike. Any recommendation on a driver that resists sagging?
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post #1758 of 1768 Old Yesterday, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Thanks Mike. Any recommendation on a driver that resists sagging?
There's a method to check drivers that was put forth by Dan Wiggins a while back. It is based on Cms, Mms, and gravitational acceleration, though units may trip you up if you're not careful. These values are typically available in the Thiele-Small parameters provided.

Here is a link to the paper (it is one of the old Adire white papers):

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esa...rientation.pdf

Might as well just attach the paper here for posterity.

Truth be told, I've not ever bothered worrying about sag in my situation, namely because the 1/2 life of a sub in my system is measured in months.
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File Type: pdf DriverOrientation.pdf (8.6 KB, 6 views)
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post #1759 of 1768 Old Yesterday, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
There's a method to check drivers that was put forth by Dan Wiggins a while back. It is based on Cms, Mms, and gravitational acceleration, though units may trip you up if you're not careful. These values are typically available in the Thiele-Small parameters provided.

Here is a link to the paper (it is one of the old Adire white papers):

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esa...rientation.pdf

Might as well just attach the paper here for posterity.

Truth be told, I've not ever bothered worrying about sag in my situation, namely because the 1/2 life of a sub in my system is measured in months.
Mike, thanks for the info. The white paper recommended a max of 5% sag (based on Xmax) for a driver to be considered suitable for horizontal mounting. I went through the equations for the three Dayton 15"ers and got 5.5% for the RSS390HF, 4.5% for the DVC385-88, and 3.4% for the Ultimax UM15-22. Also the white paper doesn't mention anything about increased sag over time, just that sag is proportional to the cone mass and compliance. Does the Cms on typical sub drivers significantly increase over time?

Thanks,
Darrell
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post #1760 of 1768 Old Yesterday, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Mike, thanks for the info. The white paper recommended a max of 5% sag (based on Xmax) for a driver to be considered suitable for horizontal mounting. I went through the equations for the three Dayton 15"ers and got 5.5% for the RSS390HF, 4.5% for the DVC385-88, and 3.4% for the Ultimax UM15-22. Also the white paper doesn't mention anything about increased sag over time, just that sag is proportional to the cone mass and compliance. Does the Cms on typical sub drivers significantly increase over time?

Thanks,
Darrell
No idea.

I don't tend to keep things around all that long. I've had several pairs of T-6s with drivers horizontal out in the wild for 4 years or so, no complaints so far.

Last edited by lilmike; Yesterday at 09:17 PM. Reason: Can't count...
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post #1761 of 1768 Old Today, 07:04 AM
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This is probably a silly question, but I'm trying to determine the radius of the baffle cutout for my JBL GTO15D. The diameter from the center of 2 opposing mounting holes is 14-5/8". The diameter where the surround meets the hard rubber mounting gasket is 13-3/4". None of those measurements matter, right? As long as the surround diameter is smaller than the baffle cutout. And as long as the baffle cutout is smaller than the diameter of the mounting holes.

It really doesn't even have to be exact, does it? The specified 14" cutout should work for just about any 15" driver.

Quote:
First – set your circle jig for a 14” diameter cutout. Second – drill a pilot hole for your circle jig centered on the baffle, 7 ¾” from the inside bottom. Cut the driver cutout, then drop the driver through to locate the screw holes. Center the driver in the cutout (yes – it is a little large, that is by design, I don’t want the surround to hit), then mark the 8 mounting holes in the driver’s frame.

Gently tap a hurricane nut into the mounting hole on the horn side of the baffle –NOT THE CHAMBER SIDE
The entire driver stays within the chamber, right?

Wouldn't the "normal" way be to drop the driver in from the front side (e.g., where the narrow part of the horn starts)? But the F20 mounting approach (from within the chamber) is to allow the driver to be removed/replaced from the access panel, right?

The best picture I could find is this one (attached) from Big Jim's build.

So the exact radius of my baffle cutout isn't critical (i.e., if this was a flat pack kit, a precut 14" hole would work for any 15" driver), the important part is the 8 mounting holes with the PL'd/JBWelded hurricane nuts.
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post #1762 of 1768 Unread Today, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post
This is probably a silly question, but I'm trying to determine the radius of the baffle cutout for my JBL GTO15D. The diameter from the center of 2 opposing mounting holes is 14-5/8". The diameter where the surround meets the hard rubber mounting gasket is 13-3/4". None of those measurements matter, right? As long as the surround diameter is smaller than the baffle cutout. And as long as the baffle cutout is smaller than the diameter of the mounting holes.

It really doesn't even have to be exact, does it? The specified 14" cutout should work for just about any 15" driver.



The entire driver stays within the chamber, right?

Wouldn't the "normal" way be to drop the driver in from the front side (e.g., where the narrow part of the horn starts)? But the F20 mounting approach (from within the chamber) is to allow the driver to be removed/replaced from the access panel, right?

The best picture I could find is this one (attached) from Big Jim's build.

So the exact radius of my baffle cutout isn't critical (i.e., if this was a flat pack kit, a precut 14" hole would work for any 15" driver), the important part is the 8 mounting holes with the PL'd/JBWelded hurricane nuts.
Normal mounting won't work, unless we put the hatch on the throat of the horn and drop the driver through the throat. I chose to have the hatch in the chamber, which is pretty conventional for a FLH. This way, the driver stays inside the chamber and it can be changed through the access hatch if needed. Since I didn't use a motor-board and compression chamber on the front of the driver, the baffle cutout has to be big enough to allow the surround to fit through, yet small enough to mount the driver and seal against the gasket and frame.

Instead of the hurricane nuts, I've been using threaded inserts in my recent builds, they're a bit easier to work with. I still degrease them and glue them in place, and I still chase the threads before installing the baffle.

Amazon has the best prices on inserts that I've found so far (thanks Bryan).

http://www.amazon.com/E-Z-Threaded-H...KJ4E4ZDHV2FMS6
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post #1763 of 1768 Unread Today, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
Amazon has the best prices on inserts that I've found so far (thanks Bryan).

http://www.amazon.com/E-Z-Threaded-H...KJ4E4ZDHV2FMS6
Excellent. Can't beat that price, especially with free Prime shipping.

Thanks Mike.
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post #1764 of 1768 Unread Today, 10:57 AM
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Those are the same inserts from Amazon that I use as well. It's just mandatory to epoxy them in place for cheap insurance against rotating and then chasing the threads to make sure a screw doesn't grab a burr in them.
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post #1765 of 1768 Unread Today, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post
It's just mandatory to epoxy them in place for cheap insurance against rotating and then chasing the threads to make sure a screw doesn't grab a burr in them.
Quote:
chase the threads with a tap when the PL is dry. Do not skip this final step. You WILL regret it.
I bought those inserts. And I bought these 1-1/4" 10-32 screws.

Can I just use one of the screws (maybe sprayed with WD40) to chase after epoxy (and leave it in while the epoxy dries?) or do I need to buy a real tap?
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post #1766 of 1768 Unread Today, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post
[FONT=Calibri]

I bought those inserts. And I bought these 1-1/4" 10-32 screws.

Can I just use one of the screws (maybe sprayed with WD40) to chase after epoxy (and leave it in while the epoxy dries?) or do I need to buy a real tap?
A screw may catch a burr and damage a thread inside the insert. When this happens the threads can be further damaged by forcing a screw back out again. A real tap is a necessity as it will cut any obstructions out of the way.
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post #1767 of 1768 Unread Today, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tsloms View Post
A real tap is a necessity as it will cut any obstructions out of the way.
OK thanks. I ordered this one, only $3.28 - gotta love Amazon Prime free shipping.

I don't mind buying the right tool for the job, but would it also work to just pre-test the 50 inserts until you found 8 that took a screw cleanly with no burrs?
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post #1768 of 1768 Unread Today, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post
OK thanks. I ordered this one, only $3.28 - gotta love Amazon Prime free shipping.

I don't mind buying the right tool for the job, but would it also work to just pre-test the 50 inserts until you found 8 that took a screw cleanly with no burrs?

Yes you could do that as well. I simply pop my tap into my drill and run them through while holding onto the inserts. It goes very quickly and is cheap insurance otherwise. Just be very careful not to get PL or epoxy into the threads or you will need the tap anyways.
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