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post #181 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


so you wouldnt need the use of REW with miniDSP? I thought this, as well as a mic was necessary to do any type of eq'ing in general? If just setting the HP filter as I stated is all that is necessary, then the miniDSP is a piece of cake?

My point was based on someone only needing to set a highpass, who was not going to use rew to eq.

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post #182 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 08:01 AM
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My point was based on someone only needing to set a highpass, who was not going to use rew to eq.

gotcha, with an enclosure that measures this flat, does it bare the necessity to really do eqing? my AVR with audyssey and sub EQ wont automatically do that for this specific enclosure for me?

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post #183 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


gotcha, with an enclosure that measures this flat, does it bare the necessity to really do eqing? my AVR with audyssey and sub EQ wont automatically do that for this specific enclosure for me?

I'm not entirely sure about this but I'm currently thinking that the eq'ing on the miniDSP is good at integrating subs, and possibly a sub with mains. Flat in principle is not the same as flat in a room and it is not flat under interference, and non-pro Audyssey does not do integration.
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post #184 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 08:59 AM
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ok screw it, ill just do the MiniDSP as Im sure the simplicity of the others would get old quick anyways. what else will I need to help EQ this thing right? A lil mike mic and REW on my PC? where do you find good test tones or whatever to do that? is there a tutorial on this stuff somewhere on here? haha, too many questions. Did i Mention you guys are awesome!?!?!

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post #185 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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REW on the PC will generate the test signals.

For measuring SPL, I use:

an older Dell laptop (Latitude D620 - picked up as a refurbished unit for $300)
a Behringer UCA-202 USB sound card
a lilmike Mic
and a modified RS 33-2050 SPL meter

You can skip the lilmike mic and the older, modified meter and just get a newer SPL meter for measuring subs. The Radio Shack 33-2055 seems to work well enough.
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post #186 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
gotcha, with an enclosure that measures this flat, does it bare the necessity to really do eqing? my AVR with audyssey and sub EQ wont automatically do that for this specific enclosure for me?
It won't be that flat in a room, unless you've got a really good room.
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post #187 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
REW on the PC will generate the test signals.

For measuring SPL, I use:

an older Dell laptop (Latitude D620 - picked up as a refurbished unit for $300)
a Behringer UCA-202 USB sound card
a lilmike Mic
and a modified RS 33-2050 SPL meter

You can skip the lilmike mic and the older, modified meter and just get a newer SPL meter for measuring subs. The Radio Shack 33-2055 seems to work well enough.
ok, getting closer then. the 33-2055 has its own mike to read and you just make adjustments in REW per what you see on the meter? and then adjust to those changes for the mini DSP?

how important is the sound card? i would just use the one in my current laptop that would hook to the system via headphone jack.

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post #188 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
ok, getting closer then. the 33-2055 has its own mike to read and you just make adjustments in REW per what you see on the meter? and then adjust to those changes for the mini DSP?

how important is the sound card? i would just use the one in my current laptop that would hook to the system via headphone jack.
33-2055 is an SPL meter, and has a preamp output that plugs directly into a line-in on the sound card. Run it as a C-weighted SPL meter in REW, it is nearly as accurate as one of my mics, so it is plenty good for DIY stuff.

It is easier than that, REW will even calculate the EQ settings for you, and the MiniDSP software will upload them directly.

Soundcard quality is a fundamental part of getting decent measurements. The quality of your soundcard depends on the laptop. Many are absolute junk. My Dell has a pretty good soundcard, and it is still 10 dB down at 20 Hz...and falls off a cliff below that, so it is pretty much useless for subs. The recommended UCA202 is only $30, and is pretty much flat to 10 Hz. It can be a bugger to get working properly under Vista or 7. It works great with XP though.
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post #189 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 12:02 PM
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i unfortunately have vista, but the card on my computer is decent. 3 yr old HP laptop, sound card in there will do digital out and all so I would think this would be ok... any other way around putting in a new sound card?

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post #190 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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External USB models are easiest.

Vista's mixer is cranky, but will work.

Run a loopback and see what you have. Line out to line in, then look at the response.
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post #191 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 12:12 PM
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I think the problem with most laptops (older) is that they lack the line-in port and software functionality on the soundcard and thus have no control over the input signal from the Radio-shack preamp's line-out. This makes it impossible to adjust in REW. My experience even with XP on a Dell (lattitude D800)

Even the UCA202 doesn't work here because the OS doesn't have software functions for the line-in control.
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post #192 of 1717 Old 05-09-2011, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BruceD View Post

I think the problem with most laptops (older) is that they lack the line-in port and software functionality on the soundcard and thus have no control over the input signal from the Radio-shack preamp's line-out. This makes it impossible to adjust in REW. My experience even with XP on a Dell (lattitude D800)

Even the UCA202 doesn't work here because the OS doesn't have software functions for the line-in control.

Admittedly - we're WAYYYY off topic here, discussing measurements vs the sub...

While it is true that the UCA202 does not have input gain adjustment, it still works fine with REW, and it is flatter than a great many of the $30 alternatives out there.

In my opinion, being able to adjust the input gain not really a concern. If your mic provides a hot enough signal for the sound card, there is no need for the gain to be adjusted. If not - use a preamp to control that signal level. If your mic clips the sound card, pad it down with a simple resistor pad. My mic provides plenty of signal, and does not clip the UCA202's inputs until in excess of 130 dB with a fresh battery. It is also quite linear. 94 dB (where I calibrated) was 94 dB on my meter, 114 dB indicated in REW was 114 dB on my meter as well. 5 sweeps at 5 dB steps, one calibration. I like it. My neighbors do too, cause I get my measurements done quicker.

Enough with the OT REW and measurement stuff. Maybe we could start a REW measurements thread?
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post #193 of 1717 Old 05-10-2011, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

Enough with the OT REW and measurement stuff. Maybe we could start a REW measurements thread?


Yes please!!! and build it into a sticky perhaps!

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post #194 of 1717 Old 05-10-2011, 02:40 PM
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Lilmike, can you post how this models with a 22.5" internal width? I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to make it 4.5" wider.
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post #195 of 1717 Old 05-10-2011, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks to me like a lot more wood for less than 2 dB between 25 and 35 Hz. I really doubt you'd notice the difference once you positioned it in the room.



Remember - this measured a bit flatter than the model predicts.
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post #196 of 1717 Old 05-10-2011, 07:16 PM
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Thanks a bunch! Looks like I'll go with the original slim version. Cheers!
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post #197 of 1717 Old 05-11-2011, 03:49 AM
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I think I'm going to forgo the access panel for now. I'm also going to run the speaker wire out the mouth through a hole in the rear chamber. My thoughts are that if I do need to replace the speaker later on, I'll just cut out the access panel at that point. Anyone else thinking of doing this?

I'm also thinking of purchasing a Crown XLS1000 and MiniDSP to power 2 of these F20 beasts. Anyone have similiar or differing opinions in regards to this? Thanks in advance! And, a big thanks to Lilmike and Erich to all of their efforts!
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post #198 of 1717 Old 05-11-2011, 06:47 AM
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I think I'm going to forgo the access panel for now. I'm also going to run the speaker wire out the mouth through a hole in the rear chamber. My thoughts are that if I do need to replace the speaker later on, I'll just cut out the access panel at that point. Anyone else thinking of doing this?

I'm also thinking of purchasing a Crown XLS1000 and MiniDSP to power 2 of these F20 beasts. Anyone have similiar or differing opinions in regards to this? Thanks in advance! And, a big thanks to Lilmike and Erich to all of their efforts!

Just ordered the XLS1500 for one yesterday. i will be keeping the other channel open should I decide I need second one in the rear of my theater for balance (haha probably)

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post #199 of 1717 Old 05-11-2011, 06:52 AM
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Mike, this pertains to cutting the access panel. I made it that far last night and am DYING without internet at home to post pics, troubleshoot etc. I very well could have finished the box last night otherwise!!!

I got quite confused in the instructions on how to cut the access panel out. It seems to me it would make sense to keep the sheet you made all the markings on completely intact and use it as the bottom (if laying down) of the box. Then I would take the second sheet and re-mark the sealed area again using the layout template. Before i did all this I called it a night to see if you had a better suggestion because even if I would have done this, I am still confused as to exactly where you actually make the cut on the top/side panel, ie how does the access panel fit back on and seal right? my thought was to split the difference of the interior panels with the cut so that the access panel will lay down on top of them and can then be screwed in with a slightly angled screw... I looked back at the picture of your on apge 3 or 4 of the thread and it seems your access panel would just float in space somehow (although I know this is not the case) Just very confused about this part, other than that, im smooth sailing.

I also took periodic pics during marking the layout that perhaps you could add to your instructions for further clarification

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post #200 of 1717 Old 05-11-2011, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I recommend using an access panel on this one.

I cut small scrap pieces into a flange to attach the access panel. These flange pieces attach inside the cutout, and are a cut to fit item. Took me all of 20 minutes to cut and install, but I guess I could have documented it better. I'll try to draw a picture of what I did and add it to the sketchup zip, gonna be this evening at the earliest though.
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post #201 of 1717 Old 05-11-2011, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

I recommend using an access panel on this one.

I cut small scrap pieces into a flange to attach the access panel. These flange pieces attach inside the cutout, and are a cut to fit item. Took me all of 20 minutes to cut and install, but I guess I could have documented it better. I'll try to draw a picture of what I did and add it to the sketchup zip, gonna be this evening at the earliest though.

I would like to see this if you dont mind. I still just cant visualize how to get it to seal up properly once cut.

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post #202 of 1717 Old 05-11-2011, 10:35 AM
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with the xls1500 and using RCA's to connect, would i need revA or RevB of the miniDSP? any kits necessary to go along with it?

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post #203 of 1717 Old 05-11-2011, 10:51 AM
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I would like to see this if you dont mind. I still just cant visualize how to get it to seal up properly once cut.

I have some pictures of how I did the flange at home... I will post tonight so be on the lookout.
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post #204 of 1717 Old 05-12-2011, 09:46 AM
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I read the entire thread, but what pro style amps are people using to drive the F-20s? I have a minidsp on the way along with two of the MFW drivers. Wanting to go cheaper with the amp if possible. Are higher wattage amps usable if you turn them down and does anyone have good examples for me? (sorry not familiar really with pro amp tech) I was thinking Behringer EPQ 1200 or EP 1500 as an example to use? Too much or not enough power there?

I'm also probably going to add a Clark Synthesis Platinum transducer that runs at 160 to 400 watts max to my setup. Would I need to add a separate amp for that, or could I wire the two MFW's together on one channel, and then the CS platinum on the other channel and turn that channel way down? (Like I said kind of new to amp driven drivers)
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post #205 of 1717 Old 05-12-2011, 11:01 AM
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It has been said in here that mixing and matching subs will leave "mixed" results, no pun intended. I am going to see how well my NHT 10 blends with the f-20 once im done but more than likely will just have the f-20 running solo for a while to get a good idea of what it is capable of by itself should the 10 not blend well, I will build another f-20 to compensate!

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post #206 of 1717 Old 05-12-2011, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
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I read the entire thread, but what pro style amps are people using to drive the F-20s? I have a minidsp on the way along with two of the MFW drivers. Wanting to go cheaper with the amp if possible. Are higher wattage amps usable if you turn them down and does anyone have good examples for me? (sorry not familiar really with pro amp tech) I was thinking Behringer EPQ 1200 or EP 1500 as an example to use? Too much or not enough power there?

I plan to use a Behringer A500 for right now, which is 300 per channel at 4 ohms. But once I have 4 F-20's completed I'll switch to my EP4000 with 2 on each channel.

The EP1500 might be a decent candidate but it's slightly overpowered at 400w per channel. I believe "lilmike" has recommended ~300watts per cabinet.
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post #207 of 1717 Old 05-12-2011, 05:48 PM
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So will the DVC385-88 give near identical performance to the MFW-15 in this horn.
The reason I ask is I'm in Australia and the MFW-15 might cost a fortune to get down here.
Although the Dayton isn't exactly cheap either at between $260-$270 US ea.
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post #208 of 1717 Old 05-12-2011, 06:18 PM
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well I've been looking around and the Behringer EPQ900 and the Peavey PV900 both caught my eye. The EPQ900 is putting out 390 watts per channel and the peavey right at 300 watts.
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post #209 of 1717 Old 05-12-2011, 06:33 PM
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well I've been looking around and the Behringer EPQ900 and the Peavey PV900 both caught my eye. The EPQ900 is putting out 390 watts per channel and the peavey right at 300 watts.
Wait till lilmike chimes in and see what he thinks. I am under the impression that these things are so efficient that even at 250 watts you would be fine. However, if the MFW driver can handle the extra power then the extra headroom is always nice.

I already asked if 1400 watts is to much and I was told it might create SMOKE. Hahaha :-)
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post #210 of 1717 Old 05-12-2011, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crabra
So will the DVC385-88 give near identical performance to the MFW-15 in this horn.
The reason I ask is I'm in Australia and the MFW-15 might cost a fortune to get down here.
Although the Dayton isn't exactly cheap either at between $260-$270 US ea.
Check with ERICH on here and ask for a shipping quote. If he will ship international, I highly doubt it's $190. That's the difference in the price between the MFW and the Dayton (at the price you stated).
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