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post #361 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 01:15 AM
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Do you have so many amps because you like to fill the racks?

I figured you could get away with a few LG clones and have extra space left over. What all are you powering with this setup also?


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post #362 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 04:13 AM - Thread Starter
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There are only two other amps in there besides the LGs


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post #363 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 04:53 AM
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I just saw LG's Crest and QSC. Not sure what the QSC is but then I saw all the other things added to the rack. I wondered what all he was powering, eqing ect?

I dont have much of a system and just wondered. My friends systems are usually not near as extensive either so I wanted to ask what all he was powering in terms of speakers/mics.


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post #364 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 08:13 AM
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post #365 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

IMO, big iron torroid amps (class A/B, H) are more stable as far as current goes than the Class TD, which has a much smaller transformer, thus 1/4 the weight.

Again, converting the amp from 230V-16A to 115V-30A nearly doubles the current scenario. If you use a 115V-20A circuit, you're much safer, but won't get as much wattage from the amp.



As far as I know, stereo 2 ohms or bridged 4 ohms equals same amplifier performance. Voltage, current, watts... all the same. If bridging causes distortion that stereo doesn't, I'd have to be convinced of that with some math and logic.



True. Taking a system to its safe limits requires smart operation. That's why all commercial subs are underpowered and have a slew of oppressive limiters/compressors to make them "idiot proof".

But, to gain access to the full BW of the soundtrack, you leave the HPF'd low tune ported/PR/Horn/BP sub world and go sealed L/T. This requires careful examination of your specific requirements (room, calibration preference, listening level preference, distance to LP, rooms transfer function).

For example, if I prefer running the sub at +6dB hot and MVL at reference, playing back HTTYD will require 'X' watts down to 30 Hz and 'X' watts times 10 when using a +10dB L/T.

If I use a 2x18" dual opposed sealed sub with 90dB drivers and sit 4M from them, it will take 10,000 watts to accurately reproduce this transient:



This is one reason why I use 15s. I get twice the drivers in the same space. 4 90dB drivers will only require 5,000W to the same task with less throw required from each driver. Double that system and you have dual systems in concert, each requiring 5kw amp peaks to have absolute accuracy in the most demanding scenes in a relatively small space and very small footprint.

One L/T, 2 amplifiers and 4 smallish dual opposed 15 boxes.

Now, if I'm certifiably insane and I want to go +12-15dB above reference, I need to double that system, in which case I'd end up with notnyt's system.



I recently did a dual stack system of 16-15s just for the exercise. I just don't ever play anything back at those levels, but I was more interested in noting the difference, if any, when doing so at ref level, flat response.

Point is, there's no sense in thinking that you won't need the power because you will. There's no sense in asking your chosen power plant to deliver more than it can because a clipped waveform is a grossly distorted waveform, which defeats the purpose of designing and building the system in the first place.

Bosso

Bosso, on that chart is that -10dbFS at 10hz? If so then depending if it is all LFE or LFE plus other speakers the loudest one needs to play this scene at reference would be 112 db's MAX. Is this correct? If it is just all LFE then the MAX would be 105 db's at 10hz.
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post #366 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Bosso, on that chart is that -10dbFS at 10hz? If so then depending if it is all LFE or LFE plus other speakers the loudest one needs to play this scene at reference would be 112 db's MAX. Is this correct? If it is just all LFE then the MAX would be 105 db's at 10hz.

That is not how it works...The 10hz signal is not alone the top part of the picture shows what frequencies are contained in the signal happening simultaneously. You would need to look at the input signal bar which Bosso doesn't have on this graph. SL would also have to be calibrated to your system for you to know what spl is being asked from whatever speaker/s are connected to it.


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post #367 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

IMO, big iron torroid amps (class A/B, H) are more stable as far as current goes than the Class TD, which has a much smaller transformer, thus 1/4 the weight.

I'm curious. Bosso, could you elaborate on this some more? IIRC, you liked these newer amps for various reasons. Is there a significant difference in power delivery going from a Class H (Behringer EP4k) and the TD that the Lab's use given if the power output were identical? I really don't know anything about the newer high efficiency amps and/or the Class TD stuff.


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True. Taking a system to its safe limits requires smart operation. That's why all commercial subs are underpowered and have a slew of oppressive limiters/compressors to make them "idiot proof".

Right. I made my system "idiot proof" by underpowering the drivers but I did that intentionally. Seems to work out as I don't push my subs very hard (it seems ) and have plenty of bass. Even my fairly decent mains have a hard time keeping up. I guess I just don't listen as loud as others. I'm just a sucker for 'excess' I guess.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


But, to gain access to the full BW of the soundtrack, you leave the HPF'd low tune ported/PR/Horn/BP sub world and go sealed L/T. This requires careful examination of your specific requirements (room, calibration preference, listening level preference, distance to LP, rooms transfer function).

For example, if I prefer running the sub at +6dB hot and MVL at reference, playing back HTTYD will require 'X' watts down to 30 Hz and 'X' watts times 10 when using a +10dB L/T.

If I use a 2x18" dual opposed sealed sub with 90dB drivers and sit 4M from them, it will take 10,000 watts to accurately reproduce this transient:



Awesome. No way would I ever have my system calibrated +6dB in the LFE while also @ reference level and do this all with 10dB of L/T shaping. There is just no way I would ever, ever, ever have this happen.

Thankfully, real world power requirements would be 1/4 or less of that 10kw. At least for me in my current room.

For some reason, the picture title is labeled as Daredevil but awesome nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


This is one reason why I use 15s. I get twice the drivers in the same space. 4 90dB drivers will only require 5,000W to the same task with less throw required from each driver. Double that system and you have dual systems in concert, each requiring 5kw amp peaks to have absolute accuracy in the most demanding scenes in a relatively small space and very small footprint.

One L/T, 2 amplifiers and 4 smallish dual opposed 15 boxes.

Hey now. Some perspective here...

Not everyone has the exact same constraints upon them irt to size and placement of subwoofers. I could very well do the same thing listed with my quad RLp18's and I will be able to produce more SPL. Obviously, the main caveat with my quad 18 system is the the physical size of the subwoofer is larger. This is a problem for certain people, in certain rooms. The total size of any subwoofer should always be a consideration and the smaller, the better (irt to placement possibilities, I mean) but that doesn't mean everyone will have a hard time fitting that 'larger' subwoofer into that particular spot they needed to in their room.

My system would be the same as yours, ignoring some extra girth. Then double that.

One L/T, 2 amplifiers and 4 medium-ish dual opposed 18 boxes.

Mine might have a label on the front that may read: Economy size. 30% more SPL!!



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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Now, if I'm certifiably insane and I want to go +12-15dB above reference, I need to double that system, in which case I'd end up with notnyt's system.



I recently did a dual stack system of 16-15s just for the exercise. I just don't ever play anything back at those levels, but I was more interested in noting the difference, if any, when doing so at ref level, flat response.

Well there ya go. I think that quote speaks for itself.

You know, that would be a good drop-in over in that 'importance of flat <20hz ...' thread. There was a lot of hubbub about the enormity of the kind of system that would be needed to reproduce the <20hz needed flat @ reference. Heh.

What did you think of having the extra displacement plugged in, btw? Did the bass improve at all at your regular levels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Point is, there's no sense in thinking that you won't need the power because you will. There's no sense in asking your chosen power plant to deliver more than it can because a clipped waveform is a grossly distorted waveform, which defeats the purpose of designing and building the system in the first place.

Bosso

You're very correct, B. Those looking for the most optimal performance from any speaker/subwoofer should properly amplify them.


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post #368 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

As far as I know, stereo 2 ohms or bridged 4 ohms equals same amplifier performance. Voltage, current, watts... all the same. If bridging causes distortion that stereo doesn't, I'd have to be convinced of that with some math and logic.
Bosso

As I understood it, running bridged can double the voltage output, but you would still be limited to the maximum amount of power the amplifier can produce. This is helpful when you cannot get enough voltage in stereo mode. Keep in mind W = V^2/R, so doubling voltage actually ends up with four times the amount of power, but since you go from stereo to mono, you are only actually doubling your available power output.


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post #369 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 01:30 PM
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Even if bridging increased distortion (due to simultaneous zero crossing is my understanding), and halves damping factor, that doesn't mean it's significant enough to be discernible at the LP.

I'm not smart enough to know, but if the application was different,..and one requiring absolute transparency in the critical MF/HF, then perhaps it'd warrant a more stringent, low distortion signal path. We're talking about moving a bunch of air and replicating 50 foot waveforms in our relatively small rooms.

Who is the resident amp guru?

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post #370 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 01:36 PM
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post #371 of 4619 Old 07-25-2011, 07:50 PM
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The system in my pic is actually going to be designed to play 24 scoop bass bins and 6 3way tops, 6 full range tops and 4 2way tops.
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post #372 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 12:23 AM
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The system in my pic is actually going to be designed to play 24 scoop bass bins and 6 3way tops, 6 full range tops and 4 2way tops.

Thanks. Thats what I was wondering.


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post #373 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 07:58 AM
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post #375 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 10:15 AM
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Thanks, B. The graphic is much appreciated and from following your posts irt to the class TD amps, the picture you posted makes perfect sense to me.

Guess I'll be eyeing them clones ....again. *sigh*

Very much looking forward to your updated system pics and specs, B.

Oh..

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No, I haven't turned green. I've always been into using as little energy as possible to accomplish the same task. It makes the most sense in the end.

Heh. Good luck posting that ANYWHERE on AVS besides this thread.

You would be eaten alive, B.

Random Bosso hater

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"Wwww--whhat's this?"

"I've always been into using as little energy as possible?"

"Wwwahhhaatttt!?!?"

"But..."

"BUT .......HE....... LOVES SMALL SEALED SUBS..... MY GOD!!!!






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post #376 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

[SIDE NOTE]: Josh, I'll say again, FWIW... please use 1 octave smoothing in your GP tests (Small signal, 1W/1M and 2M response graphs). 2M GP is supposed to equal 1M anechoic and I do not believe the ripples seen in unsmoothed or 1/24 octave smoothed GP measurements would appear in an anechoic chamber. The extraneous ripples make it unnecessarily more difficult to make accurate extrapolations of F3, Q and FR for things like designing an L/T and direct comparisons with the other subs you've tested. Just repeating my 2 cents. .

I know...It makes things difficult. 1 octave smoothing though? That seems a little excessive. Look at all the pretty flat lines! Typo? For one consideration think how the DTS10 distortion would look with smoothing? All of those high Q spikes would be tamed down dramatically making it look much much better.



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As far as I know, there's no way to calibrate SL in an absolute manner. I simply coordinated a known scene, TrueRTA peak hold graph, RS digital meters max reading and 0dBFS digital red line encoding numbers with the bar graph and color bursts of SL.

It can be done. I have done it before. It's not too hard. You can use a calibrator or just an spl meter and test tones. You can get it to present the spl correctly and provide headroom to where it clips the input at 0dbfs. There is an amplitude calibration available on one of the options pages.

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I also considered Ilkka's Spectral Contamination graph of 100dB total, made up of 10 signals, each of which is less that 100dB, which is exactly the same way LFE is mixed with respect to 0dBFS. Each part of the LFE is less than 0dBFS, but the sum total adds up to a higher peak reading while still being no more than 0dBFS:

Bosso

This is what I meant with my comment to MK about having to consider the entire signal not just the 10hz component of it. I probably worded it badly as usual.


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post #379 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 10:54 AM
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Yeah that or tell us about that nuclear power plant you got hidden under your HT room.


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post #380 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Pressure vessel gain suffers no loss to distance in a listening space.

That would be correct for a room with perfectly rigid boundaries and at 0 Hz, above which modal behavior begins.

Have you verified this to be approximately true in practice and for what freq range?

And how did you separate the distance effect and PVG?

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post #381 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

As far as I know, stereo 2 ohms or bridged 4 ohms equals same amplifier performance. Voltage, current, watts... all the same. If bridging causes distortion that stereo doesn't, I'd have to be convinced of that with some math and logic.

You are correct that the two conditions as defined are the same. Exactly. One other thing that remains the same in your scenario is the total output power delivered to the load(s). So we are not really discussing the case where bridging delivers the 4x power due to the doubled voltage into a given load.

Is that the choice in real life? Usually someone has a sub (or speaker) and has the choice whether to drive it single ended or bridged. In that case it is not "stereo 2 ohms or bridged 4 ohms" but one amp into 4 ohms or two amps bridged into 4 ohms, which translates to “stereo” (dual mono) into 2 ohms. In this case the damping factor cuts in half and the noise floor increases some 3 dB (there are two sources of random noise summed). These effects will be consistent regardless of amp design.

Distortion might increase, if the amp's distortion at x watts into 2 ohms is higher than 2x watts into 4 ohms. That is the least certain side effect in my opinion. And I agree with FOH who said that these electrical differences do not necessarily translate to audible differences.

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post #384 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Modal behavior does not begin until the wavelength is less than twice the largest distance between axial boundaries.

Modal behavior is not brick wall, but varies smoothly with freq.

Mathematically and behaviorally, PVG actually is a mode, the zeroth, though it's hard to grasp conceptually (myself included) what with zero and infinity involved, though if you just step away from 0 Hz a bit it helps.

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Contrary to what most say on the forums, the first sound to hit your ears is the direct radiated sound, which is not affected by modes and is subject to the inverse square law.

I don't recollect anyone saying what's obviously impossible, that anything but the sound with the shortest path arrives first.

Nor do I see the relevance, as our hearing blends the first several msec together anyway.

Re measurements of this, I've done none.

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post #385 of 4619 Old 07-26-2011, 05:43 PM
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Outstanding.

Yeah, I have to explain it 200 times from every conceivable angle and it's still taken out of context.

Still looking for that formula that converts watts to weight = "Tons Of Power" as well as the formula that converts voltage to "GOBS'.

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That conversion formula can be found right below the formula that you use to convert dBu to dBFS in SpectrumLab!
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post #386 of 4619 Old 07-27-2011, 08:16 AM
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post #387 of 4619 Old 07-29-2011, 07:07 PM
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bosso the chart you posted about transients and TD vs old iron amps makes all the sense now. I didn't know what you were talking about with transients and now it makes sense about how the amps track the signal where the old iron just looked at the peak and applied the power.


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post #388 of 4619 Old 07-31-2011, 12:11 PM
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anyone with a fp10000q that might be willing to trade? i have the fp14000, think i would have better use with less power and more channels.
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post #389 of 4619 Old 07-31-2011, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

anyone with a fp10000q that might be willing to trade? i have the fp14000, think i would have better use with less power and more channels.

230v or 110? Im about to make an order and am planning on fp14000 230v models. I could order the 10000 since they dont carry a warranty anyway
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post #390 of 4619 Old 07-31-2011, 12:24 PM
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I'm strongly considering getting two FP10000Q's ..... again.


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