Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 158 - AVS Forum
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post #4711 of 4735 Old 11-20-2014, 03:27 PM
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M total cost was around 930$ shipped and that included any duty and taxes for my FP14's.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #4712 of 4735 Old 11-21-2014, 06:32 AM
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There seems to be something wrong with the power rating from Lab Gruppen. The continuous RMS rating of the amps is 1/3 of their "rated power". Their amps are that way maybe comparable to the bellringer but not to Yamaha, for example. I measured a P2500S I have and it was able to deliver at least the power values stated in their specs continuously. Lab Gruppen doesn't state how they measure the "rated power" but you can easily conclude from their current draw and thermal dissipation specifications that they take the maximal continuous RMS power an amp can deliver and multiply it by 3 to obtain their "rated power". That means for a 8Ohm load:
- FP10000Q = 4x433W < 2x P5000S = 2x2x 500W
- FP6000Q = 4x208W < 2x P2500S = 2x2x 250W
- FP14000 = 2x783W = 112% P7000S (non-EU version) or 2x P3500S bridged
- FP9000 = 2x533W = 106% P5000S
And so on. You have to multiply the full band power specs of the Yamaha PS-series (for example) by 3 to be able to compare it to the Lab Gruppen "rated power". Being in Europe, the only reason to buy a FP6000Q would be the more than halved weight compared to two P2500S and the halved rack space needed. But you save the need for replacing fans since the PS-series is dead quiet. Even the cloned FP6000Q ends up being more expensive than two P2500S in Europe. So, seen from Europe, the only of these cloned amps that might make any sense buying is the FP10000Q which would mean saving like 300€ and 12kg weight and 2U of rack compared to two P5000S. For that you don't have any warranty and a no-name china cloned amp that seems to have thermal issues (it seems to need the two extra fans) and which you maybe wouldn't be able to resale for a good price. If you're planning to use it professionally (as a musician, for example) more problems arise since it doesn't seem to be clear who would be responsible in case of a severe failure of the unit catching fire, for example. I would have to first consult a lawer to know if I'd be making myself responsible for the unit, since I would be the one importing it to Europe. Too much trouble for too less gain, even if you don't have any thoughts about buying a plagiarized product, what actually makes it clearly wrong in the first place. At least in my case it was pure greed that led me to consider buying a stolen engineering work. I'm ashamed that I had to do the math first and not just obeyed my consience from the beginning...

Last edited by always-ultra; 11-23-2014 at 05:06 PM.
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post #4713 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 04:10 PM
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So your not going to be buying one?

We have been down this road before in previous posts. Almost nothing is going to come close to the value of dollar per watt that a Fp14000 can bring. If your a professional then you make money from your equipment so go buy a real LG. But if your a DIY person trying to get the best out of your system you can then these amps are perfect. No brainer here.
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post #4714 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 04:15 PM
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It's just that simple. If you don't think they are any good, don't want the risk, etc., don't get one.

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post #4715 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 05:02 PM
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Sorry, I didn't read all posts... they are quite a few. If the cloned FP14000 meets the specs of the original, it's a 2x2350W@8Ohm "rated power" amp. That means FP14000 = 2x783W@8Ohm continuous power in the case of LG. The P7000S will produce 2x700W@8Ohm contiuous and if I'm correctly informed the inuke 12000 should have way more power than a FP14000. The inuke is made in china too (if that's good). But you have a warranty in your country and manufacturer support. I have the impression that people are buying these cloned amps because the are way more expensive in their original version, not because they wouldn't have alternatives. If it's about watt/dollar: is the cloned FP14000 really better than the inuke 12000? It doesn't seems so.

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post #4716 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 05:07 PM
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The FP14K is probably better than two 12000s. It is not even in the same league overall, let alone below 20Hz.
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post #4717 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post
The FP14K is probably better than two 12000s. It is not even in the same league overall, let alone below 20Hz.
Not wanting to argue, just interested: is this based on tests? If so, I would appreciate a link to them.
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post #4718 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
Not wanting to argue, just interested: is this based on tests? If so, I would appreciate a link to them.
No arguement at all.

Check the "Who wants to see the iNuke 12000 tested?" thread. If memory serves, the 12K is only putting about about ~2400/ channel at 4 ohms and even lower than at below 20Hz.

Yes, you get a "better" warranty with the Behringer. But, you also risk getting the power off thump and far less power. The clones are minor risk but well worth it IMO.
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post #4719 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 05:40 PM
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Thank you, I'll take a look at the thread.
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post #4720 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
Sorry, I didn't read all posts... they are quite a few. If the cloned FP14000 meets the specs of the original, it's a 2x2350W@8Ohm "rated power" amp. That means FP14000 = 2x783W@8Ohm continuous power in the case of LG. The P7000S will produce 2x700W@8Ohm contiuous and if I'm correctly informed the inuke 12000 should have way more power than a FP14000. The inuke is made in china too (if that's good). But you have a warranty in your country and manufacturer support. I have the impression that people are buying these cloned amps because the are way more expensive in their original version, not because they wouldn't have alternatives. If it's about watt/dollar: is the cloned FP14000 really better than the inuke 12000? It doesn't seems so.

You're just making numbers up here. Stop.
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post #4721 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Langston Holland tested a bunch of high end amps. Unfortunately the images were lost when he changed forums. Fortunately, I saved it.
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post #4722 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
You're just making numbers up here. Stop.
Show me what is wrong in this calculation and I stop. Promised.

- get the file Fp+-Series-Operation-Manual.pdf from Lab Gruppen
- choose an amp
- go to the amp's page in the section "6.4 Current Draw and Thermal Dissipation specifications" of the document
- look for the rows with "Level" = "Pink noise (max power)" in the spreadsheet
- pick a row with a value in "Line Current" lower than 30A for 120VAC and 16A for 230VAC
- take the number on the column "Watt" "Out" of that same row
- multiply that number by 3

Is the result the same as the value stated in the same row under "Rated power"?

--> LG's "rated power" = 3 * max. continous power

- apply that rule to the FP14000's rated power for 8Ohm stereo --> 2x783W@8Ohm
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post #4723 of 4735 Old 11-23-2014, 07:23 PM
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"Pink noise (max power)" means according to that document: "Figures measured at maximum sustainable power without tripping the mains fuse".
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post #4724 of 4735 Old Yesterday, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Langston Holland tested a bunch of high end amps. Unfortunately the images were lost when he changed forums. Fortunately, I saved it.

Thanks for the info.





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post #4725 of 4735 Old Yesterday, 04:25 PM
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Yes, that is what I was looking for earlier. Thanks for posting guys!

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post #4726 of 4735 Old Yesterday, 07:09 PM
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Does not look like Holland is testing amps and posting about it much anymore.

Very interesting how he felt that reporting voltage swing over time was a better metric than trying to report on some wattage measure.

I need to put the beer down and read about this burst measure method.

Makes me wonder on what voltage swing or wattage figure to design for with these amps designed for large real world burst swings? With a fp 140 00 at 2 channel 4 ohm for sub duty do you use 8000, 4400, or longer term (close to sine wave) power to design the enclosure? There is a bit of difference between 8000 and 4400..
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post #4727 of 4735 Old Yesterday, 08:23 PM
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Yeah, less than 3 dBs.
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post #4728 of 4735 Old Yesterday, 09:16 PM
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Tell that to your subs! Just give me 3 more...
Excursion to dBs factor can be rough unless you already have more than enough...
Just double your amps and subs and all is good Until your midbass can't or won't keep up. Just keep moving from problem to problem and soon the wallet hurts the most
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post #4729 of 4735 Old Yesterday, 10:13 PM
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The difference is less than 3 dBs. Just the facts. Has nothing to do with subs. I have a Sanway 14K powering 12 drivers. My enclosures are enormous so I never use hardly any of it can tear apart the drivers before I need all the power. Design choice.
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post #4730 of 4735 Old Yesterday, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
There seems to be something wrong with the power rating from Lab Gruppen. The continuous RMS rating of the amps is 1/3 of their "rated power". Their amps are that way maybe comparable to the bellringer but not to Yamaha, for example. I measured a P2500S I have and it was able to deliver at least the power values stated in their specs continuously.
How did you measure the Yamaha?
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post #4731 of 4735 Old Today, 09:30 AM
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How did you measure the Yamaha?
I attached a power resistor (four of them in series/parallel) to the amp in bridge mode at 8Ohm using sine, triangle, square and pulse waves. It performed very good and delivered at least as stated in the specs. I didn't make burst measurements, but I'm just now downloading the Don Keele CD to do so. But first I have to replace the power resistors since I blew them all up testing a Crest Pro 8200 too long... The room smells now really funky.
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post #4732 of 4735 Old Today, 10:48 AM
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But first I have to replace the power resistors since I blew them all up testing a Crest Pro 8200 too long... The room smells now really funky.
Hahaha, I hear that smoke is good for your immune system.

Maybe you can use the newest beta version of REW instead of getting that CD. It has a burst test in the new updated signal generator. What kind of meter were you using? Were you measuring RMS with the meter or did it have a peak function?

I saw a guy online who used water heater elements from Lowes as power resistors and he immersed them in a bucket of water to dissipate the heat. They measured right at 8ohms and could handle well over 1000W each. Anyway, I hope there was no damage to the Crest.
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post #4733 of 4735 Old Today, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Maybe you can use the newest beta version of REW instead of getting that CD. It has a burst test in the new updated signal generator. What kind of meter were you using? Were you measuring RMS with the meter or did it have a peak function?

I saw a guy online who used water heater elements from Lowes as powe
I haven't updated to the newest beta because it still says "beta" and I don't wanted to risk any malfunctioning. Are you using it? And in order to be able to compare results with the measurements above, I thought the CD might be a better choice. When measuring the Yamaha I was using an oscilloscope and a Hameg multimeter showing RMS voltage. Thanks to God, the Crest didn't get damaged!
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