Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Just as long as it isn't DOA or have something loose/broken inside when you get it.

Hey, I still like these but I can't afford to deal with shipping something back or doing any repair work on one of these. It's a g-damn'd bummer.

I agree. If I could do the work to fix the poor workmanship it would be a different story, but if something were wrong its going to have to be sent to a shop for the work. Makes me second guess buying these but I almost have to. I mean even if I had to order a second one to get a good one I'd still be saving well over $1000.

Is scary though thinking about possibly throwing money away.
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post #452 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 12:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I have 4 of these, they all seemed consistent. It's a possibility he was unlucky with DHL.
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post #453 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

I have 4 of these, they all seemed consistent. It's a possibility he was unlucky with DHL.

You were very lucky, Not.

Although at the same time, you can afford four of these and eight LMS-U's so maybe the 'can I afford to have one of these shipped back/buy an extra' is an option for you that I don't have the option of at all. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Yeah.. I'm just jelly.

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post #454 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You were very lucky, Not.

Although at the same time, you can afford four of these and eight LMS-U's so maybe the 'can I afford to have one of these shipped back/buy an extra' is an option for you that I don't have the option of at all. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I really wonder how many people here in the states order these. They have to be selling them pretty well just on a cost basis. I believe Not may have gotten a little lucky myself but as they become more popular around here we shall see what the rate of recieving good units will be. Hopefully we will atleast see under 15-20% of the units need work.

Just a thought. But maybe there would be someone on here willing to have damaged units shipped to them for repairs for a reasonable fee. But then again shipping costs both ways plus a fee might be more than a local electronics repair shop. I should have taken more electrical classes in college lol.
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post #455 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 10:13 AM
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I still rate the amps performance, It could've been dhl fault that knocked a few parts inside loose. I did have a slight dent on the top of the amp, same side as the transformer. So you never know. My other 2 that i just ordered were perfectly intact and works fine.
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post #456 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 10:17 AM
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So what would I do if I ordered two and one or both got slightly damaged during shipping?

I live in central California. I REALLY want these cuz they give me all the power I could ever need for a great price and even in a small form factor. Almost too good to be true.

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post #457 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

So what would I do if I ordered two and one or both got slightly damaged during shipping?

I live in central California. I REALLY want these cuz they give me all the power I could ever need for a great price and even in a small form factor. Almost too good to be true.

It shouldnt be that big of a deal. Between Not, Bosso, and a few others the problems should be able to be seen from photos. Then it seems like they will ship the parts. If you can show an electronics repair shop the problems the fee for repair shouldnt be that bad. Its just getting the parts from sanway which seems fairly optimistic at this point
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post #458 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

It shouldnt be that big of a deal. Between Not, Bosso, and a few others the problems should be able to be seen from photos. Then it seems like they will ship the parts. If you can show an electronics repair shop the problems the fee for repair shouldnt be that bad. Its just getting the parts from sanway which seems fairly optimistic at this point

Yyyyeah. I wouldn't be comfortable doing that... espeically taking one of these to some local 'repair shop'. *cringe*

I'd trust any one of you guys to take my money and order and do a quick QC for me more than that. For a reasonable fee, of course.

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post #459 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yyyyeah. I wouldn't be comfortable doing that... espeically taking one of these to some local 'repair shop'. *cringe*

I'd trust any one of you guys to take my money and order and do a quick QC for me more than that. For a reasonable fee, of course.

LOL yeah I guess it depends on if you have any experience with the shop. I used to work for a audio/video store so have a lot of experience with the local repair shop. I do trust them but like you would rather have someone else do it if that was an option
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post #460 of 4617 Old 08-18-2011, 02:42 PM
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Your fine to order from them. And i got my parts all on time, it's just 1 fan that was broken due to shipping. And to be honest that could've happened even with a local carrier. and even they will give u a run around.
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post #461 of 4617 Old 08-20-2011, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yyyyeah. I wouldn't be comfortable doing that... espeically taking one of these to some local 'repair shop'. *cringe*

I'd trust any one of you guys to take my money and order and do a quick QC for me more than that. For a reasonable fee, of course.

Scott, are you wanting someone to order the amps with? I still have not placed my order yet. I know a guy locally that has two of them, has done an OUTDOOR tour in the HOT summer with them and they powered his entire mains and subs fine. He says he is now a firm believer in them after this summer. He has owned them and used them for at least two years, i guess just not to that extent. I have just been waiting because its no rush and im just organizing my money kinda...

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post #462 of 4617 Old 08-22-2011, 10:20 AM
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The performance of these is not the issue for me. It's what do 'I' do if I get one that is non-functional/broken for what ever the reason. I don't have an electrical engineering degree and wouldn't/couldn't fix these myself. Repairing amplifiers is not my DIY forte.

That's the main issue I have. I am still seriously considering the 'clones' though so I haven't ruled them out as an option.

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post #463 of 4617 Old 08-25-2011, 11:42 PM
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I doubt the build quality was the problem with the power supply to board solder joints, I've seen my fair share of amp guts and the sanway clones to me personally look very well put together.
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post #464 of 4617 Old 08-26-2011, 06:02 AM
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Scott while its clear to see where you coming from & I myself wouldn't think nor expect the Support & build quality to be on par with the real Lab Gruppen amps, The way I look at it like many others is that even if you ordered 2 & one of the Amps was Bad thus ordered another you'd still be way ahead compared to the price of A real Lab 14000 especially considering they would only be for home duty...
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post #465 of 4617 Old 08-26-2011, 06:12 AM
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Yeah, anyone buying is pretty much saying $900 is okay to lose. Its just a risk/reward decision.

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post #466 of 4617 Old 08-26-2011, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Scott while its clear to see where you coming from & I myself wouldn't think nor expect the Support & build quality to be on par with the real Lab Gruppen amps, The way I look at it like many others is that even if you ordered 2 & one of the Amps was Bad thus ordered another you'd still be way ahead compared to the price of A real Lab 14000 especially considering they would only be for home duty...

I see the point and agree with it even but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yeah, anyone buying is pretty much saying $900 is okay to lose. Its just a risk/reward decision.

Right. I don't have $900 to just 'lose'. I would call that a significant setback in my personal finances. I do see the value in the product. It would have to work though. I don't have the financial headroom to simply hock out $900 as a total loss. Just cuz it's cheaper than the real thing doesn't make a loss like that okay for me. Very much a risk/reward decision.

That's my problem. I make a LOT less money than all you guys.

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post #467 of 4617 Old 08-26-2011, 06:49 PM
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I am in the same boat as you Scott although I probably have even less spare money.

But that being said you could always have one of the more knowledgeable guys look over everything for you and then take receipt of the amp.

There is always the Marathon 5050 still. I dont have 900 to throw away either. I hardly have 20 to throw away but thanks to others that do I am still pretty confident that these will be my next purchase when I sell my current amp. Simple solder or replacing fans I dont mind. I have had to take apart enough Wii's and playstations to take out pennies and other debris from children that I think I can handle most small repairs.

Or you could always save up 2-3x's more and have the real thing. Cheapest I have seen the Fp14000 was about 3500....I think. I always look on the LG reseller sites and find others selling their amps for a more reasonable price but still ALOT more than a clone.
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post #468 of 4617 Old 09-01-2011, 03:49 PM
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Random thoughts

1. If you are an electronics technician or greater or have good skills, this is worth the risk
assuming you receive the cloned product and it wasn't a mail order scam.

2. Before powering it on, I would do a QA inspection to make sure all parts are bolted on
especially the power transistors to ensure they are heat sinked well. All it takes is one
poorly mounted transistor to blow the amp.

3. The amplifier "clone" looks good. In fact, it's very easy to clone amplifier circuit boards.
There is one company in China that makes some very nice reverse engineering
software for PCB's, I might be evaluating that software too for reverse engineering boards
for another industry. It would actually be easier to clone the boards using this type of
software than to create the boards from scratch via schematic.

4. Nice amplifier test here;
http://www.soundforums.net/live/thre...s-%281-of-2%29

The FP14000 seems to suffer the same problems as the "tested" FP6400 and the
"Gutted" FP6400 by the kind folks on the DIYA forum that reversed engineered the
power supply that revealed flaws in high frequency tracking. LAB used this design
flaw as a marketing cookie to say "Our amplifier has HF limiters to protect the HF drivers",
but we know the power supply is flawed at HF, it can't track the signal well so, IIRC,
it actually probably stops tracking at HF. That FP1400 test seems to indicate that LAB
didn't improve the power supply, they probably just reused the same "concept" from the
older amplifiers.

5. But who care about high power HF? I do, because it's headroom. But who cares
about high SPL transients at 1hz - 3hz ? Only Bosso does In all, the amplifier is
a hit if the price is right. But buying the real amplifier for DIY purposes if fail because
who wants to pay a huge premium ? I don't.

6. The price for the clone is cheap. For them, they are making a killing because the circuit
is simple and lightweight and they make you pay for shipping. haha. Even thought
operating this amplifier at 115VAC seems like a waste as there is 2x more potential,
due to the price, it's still not a bad deal. But if you are really into DIY stuff and are digging
deep to extra the best performance, use a crow bar to open your wallet and get some
220VAC installed in your home for the sound system

7. The amplifier is blowing up when pushed hard? I didn't absorb the whole thread,
but was it running on 115VAC or higher? Did anyone try to verify if the power transistor
parts number match the original product? Or did they use lesser ones ?

8. Certifications ? Who cares? Inspect the guts, looks for obvious stupid things during
assembly. If good, the electronic circuits don't require a rubber stamp of approval
for electricity to flow. What if it catches on fire? Then it's not a true clone. They may have
skimped on parts. But, why would they skimp on parts? This is China, they get the good
parts cheap anyways so why risk your cloning business because you wanted to save
a penny when you are already making a killing. These people don't see this as an
FP14000 like we do, they just see a box with a few circuit boards, small heatsink and
tiny transformer. You might as well insert a few rocks in the box and charge $800, they
will laugh in both situation selling this stuff to dumb foreigners. haha.



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post #469 of 4617 Old 09-01-2011, 04:16 PM
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Oh my god!

Pleasure to see you drop by, Thylantyr. Was hoping you had something to say irt these 'clones'.

Hope you're still around in a couple months to see my uber speakers come to life.

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post #470 of 4617 Old 09-01-2011, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Random thoughts

4. Nice amplifier test here;
http://www.soundforums.net/live/thre...s-%281-of-2%29

Thanks for that, some good nuggets within...

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post #471 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 06:07 AM
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I'm wondering how many owners/users have this clone amp running flawlessly and how many of them have encountered problems?
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post #472 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 12:15 PM
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Homework.

Find the part numbers for the power transistors mounted on the heatsinks from the real
LAB 14000 and post them. Try to get high resolution pics from cyber as we may see
the part numbers. Or see if you can get a service manual from LAB.

Then, ask the clone owners to post what the transistor part numbers they see on
their amps and we can compare notes. The bigger power transistors is what I'm looking at.

If you can do this, we can see if this "critical" area is identical or did the clone use "equivalents".

sent me an email to thylantyr@hotmail.com if you have some data. I don't visit the forums much any more so I may miss future posts here.



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post #473 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 12:47 PM
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<edit>

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post #474 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 01:14 PM
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I may just do that. If in fact Not would be interested in doing that for someone... someone like me.

Been considering some reconfiguration for my uber speaker/subs and the clones that I would get are just within budget now. Ha! I think I will think about it for another week or two though.

Bosso, if you're still reading this...could you elaborate some more (I just love asking you to do that ) on the "using an amp...that's designed for 230V-16A...converted to...115V-30A...owner's risk". I have no choice but to use these on a regular wall outlet. At least, for a little while. There is no option for me to add 230V or 115V high amp plugs in my HT room. It just isn't an option for me, unfortunately. Forgettting that I will not be able to get full sustained power (burst was the key, I thought) from the wall can I/should I still consider these 'clones'? The alternative was an array of ep4k's and maybe a single Marathon 5050. I figure those would actually be worse on power draw as they are not as effiecient.

I've been really curious about this and one of the other reasons I've been on the fence. Thanks.

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post #475 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Some quick comments, FWIW:

All in all, I had a 50% fail rate with Sanway. Each time it was the VPL circuit.

Do you know what component(s) failed?

Quote:


I'm not sure of the consequences of modding those fans, but I know that part of the layout and design of these types of amps is to make sure that all of the output devices maintain the same temperature and stay cool under use.

That's true for any amp design. While expensive, the IR heat gun would be cool to use
to see if there is any hot spots on certain areas of the design by disabling fans and doing
a simple operational test. Or use the old school thermocouples.

Quote:


The Sanways I have use Sunon fans. very high quality, very high output (60 CFM). The reason there are 4 fans is to spread the air flow out across the transistors on the boards, which are mounted on the heat sink fins and mounted differently than a real Lab.

Is there pics to show the differences? I'm curious if the cloned PCB's are 100% cloned
or did they move the PCB layout around? Also, maybe the Chinese just don't care about
product quality from an end user point of view and installed "whatever" fans they had for cheap -- so it's noisy, they don't care... I doubt they actually road tested these clones to determine high air flow was required. China and clones is "monkey see monkey do", since when do they improve a design ? In fact, they probably skimped here as noted
already... haha

Quote:


There you can see that the fins are not copper and whatever metal they actually used is copper plated. not's may be actual solid copper (like the real Labs), but I remain skeptical and the ones I received from Sanway are not.

doh..

Quote:


These amps (the real labs) are designed to operate on minimum 230V-16A circuits.

The real labs claim their design works on ~115V. So the clones should if they are cloned
100% electrically. But it's obviously not ideal to extract top performance.

Quote:


Speaking of A/C power, when you order the amp for 115V-60Hz operation from Sanway, et al, you get a standard 3 prong 20A power cord. The real Lab specifies use of a 30A twist lock power cord for 115-60Hz operation into a 30A home run as minimum. I replaced the stock cords and installed the 30A twist lock plugs for the ones I've been testing, FWIW.

Yeah, this is a must do. I also saw in the clone picture they included a fuse holder.
That will be a weak link too. I don't think those cheezy fuse holders will do this amp
justice. Considering we are dealing with a high powered amplifier, I would upgrade that fuse holder or just bypass it as I don't see any external fuse holder on the real LAB,
but do they have internal fuses on the real LAB from the mains input ?

Quote:


Don't be confused, these are Lab look alikes, not Labs. Real labs have Voltage Protection Limiters, Current Protection Limiters and a system to monitor voltage, current and temperature. The FP+ Series (what the Lab clones are copying) have Nomadlink as a standard feature.

It would be easier to clone a circuit board than to create one that looks alike. They have CAD software that makes cloning easy to do - manual labor, time consuming, but you get very good accuracy of the cloned PCB. Look alike would be guessing what the layout should be based on eyeballing.

The Chinese would be better skilled at cloning a circuit board than trying to make one
that is similar using their brain and imagination. That's harder work actually.

So, the question remains. Some features obviously removed. But is the circuit boards
cloned, but just the certain parts removed so the feature is not enabled ? Why does
the clone has the DIP switches on the back if there is no VPL circuit ? This doesn't make sense. If they cloned a board, the design will be almost identical. If they chose not to include features, they maybe they didn't populate those parts of the board or did they remove those circuits from the PCB layout ? strange.

Quote:


Lab invented the Regulated Switch Mode Power Supply and their amps are virtually impervious to typical house grid line sag.

Do you have a patent number? I doubt they invented this type of power supply, ie class TD. It's was invented a long time ago. Nelson Pass showed me a patent in this and Bob Carver tweaked that patent to make his own version so he got a patent and created Sunfire corp to make his new line of "tracking downconverter amplifiers" which is the same concept as class TD. Lab, IMO, created the name "TD" for marketing, but the concept has been used by amplifier manufacturers before.

When Bink tested the real FP6400, it failed bad on line sag tests.FP6400 claims to use the R.SMPS and so does the FP+ series. IMO, same supply design just upgraded
for more voltage and current. There is no PFC claims so I would bet is drops in power
when there is line sag.

Quote:


The layout of the boards is different, the components are better

If someone can post pics of the real one vs. clone, we can figure out what the engineering minds did

Quote:


Unlike the real Labs (and despite the clones' use of Lab's spec sheet, item for item), the clones are not 2 ohm stable. They've been tested and failed every time I'm aware of in 2 ohm stereo mode.

Need to compare power transistor parts numbers. The non-copper heatsink could be
an issue too. But that would be my conclusion also. Don't operate this amp on 2 ohms
per channel until the failure mode is identified.

Quote:


It's because of this that I've gone to a custom builder to get my own look and certain features that make my amp unique and eliminate certain proprietary Lab features. It just doesn't sit right with me and I don't know how any of that sh*t works, but I know I don't want to ever be dragged into some legal dispute.

You are going to develop a LAB clone too ? and then talk about about your Chinese competitors to promote your future product I have seen this done before
on the forums. Scare tactics.

Quote:


These amps take some time to properly set up the VPL and gain structure with your particular signal chain and grid options and it makes a big difference in getting the best out of them, but to me, it has been a worthwhile (although expensive and time-spanning) exercise to explore these amp options from China.

Bosso

What ? You said... there is no VPL repost ...

Quote:


Don't be confused, these are Lab look alikes, not Labs. Real labs have Voltage Protection Limiters, Current Protection Limiters and a system to monitor voltage, current and temperature. The FP+ Series (what the Lab clones are copying) have Nomadlink as a standard feature.

You said the clone has no VPL, then you said it has VPL ? which is it ?



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #476 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 04:54 PM
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thy,

What I said is that the real labs have a combination of protection circuits, the clones do not.

Curious thing about the VPL circuit that failed. I plugged the amp in and left it on for several days and when I put it back in a system, the VPL was working again.

The dip switches to set stereo/bridged, hard/soft limiting and VPL are not much fun to operate, much less tear into, so I haven't tracked the circuit down and probed it. I believe not has done that with one of his amps, but I'm not sure. Maybe he'll chime in...

I assure you the Sunon fans used in the clones I purchased are not cheap and have very thorough documentation of performance. But, I'm not sure they still use those fans. Again, maybe not can chime in...

They utilize several fuse holders; 1 for the power supply input, 1 for the PS output and 2 each for the channel boards. I agree that this is not an ideal design, but the amps operate very well in a full BW HT app. Of course, I haven't pushed one in 2 ohm stereo, so I don't know how that would work out.

As far as patent goes, use common sense... does anyone out there really think it's not a problem to sell these but there is not a single retail outlet for them in the US?



That's a dated excerpt, knock yourself out looking up the patent.

Scott,

The way I look at it is that 30A is twice the current than 16A. I've had PS boards blow the solder out in a loud bang because the PS board was not designed to handle the current bump, but this was not the clones being discussed in this thread.

Bosso
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post #477 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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My clones use actual copper heat sinks. Apparently the earlier ones did not. IIRC the FP14000 tested much better than the 6400, the only problem is HF response above 8khz I think.
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post #478 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 07:03 PM
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Hurry up Scott.......I wanna see those quadruple 15 mains.

How long did it take everyone to get there clone amps? Meaning from order to your hands?


I think I remember someone saying in the earlier link that the LG Fp14000 did have drop off after 8Khz. I cant remember because I read to many forums.
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post #479 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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post #480 of 4617 Old 09-02-2011, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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How would I know? Did I give any indication that I've owned or used one? I believe I told you in the past you should just go with the FP14000 so you don't have to worry about not having enough power, the price difference is negligible.

Also, the FP6400 is a different design than the FP14000 as well. They switched to what they call TD+ between revisions.
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