Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 160 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #4771 of 4816 Old 11-28-2014, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
Yes, I think it is not only marketing why companies like LG aren't rating their amps using continuous power. I'm new to this part of doing music and just starting to learn the actual duty of a an amp. If an amp can deliver like 90% of its peak power continuously I wonder why we need that. That would let room for only a small crest factor. I think it's good to know both, the continous and the peak power. An amp that could only deliver 1% of its peak power might be to weak for playing e-bass, where I would expect a rather lower crest factor, at least if you buy that amp using its peak power as "rated power". Ok, if someone plays heavy funk bass maybe he needs more peak power, but usually an e-bass in live music is nearer to sine waves than to percusive music.
If I would do measurements, I'd think it would be nice to have both. Peak power only is almost as much as continuous power only, I think. To have only one power number is not enough for an amp, as I'm coming to learn.
As long as voltage (either rms or peak specified) and impedance are provided, the rest doesn't matter as much and can be calculated..
notnyt is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4772 of 4816 Old 11-28-2014, 04:39 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Sorry, I meant continuous power vs peak power. I think too (as I stated when quoting Holland) that an effective RMS value calculated from the peak voltage of a burst's response is better. And sure, we can calculate that only having the peak voltage. I meant really continuous power over like 10secs or more vs peak power like in LG's rating. It would be better to know both. Then we could decide what an amp we need, depending on the situation. A chaotic band that kicks down mic stands with mics on? Better lesser peak power if you don't want to be buying speakers. A controlled band or maybe a HT? Then such ratio of peak-power to continuous-power that the crest factor of what you want to go to the speakers is taken care of well, and such a high continuous power that you can reach your needed average SPL (if you have enough speakers).

Last edited by always-ultra; 11-28-2014 at 04:44 PM.
always-ultra is offline  
post #4773 of 4816 Old 11-28-2014, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
Sorry, I meant continuous power vs peak power. I think too (as I stated when quoting Holland) that an effective RMS value calculated from the peak voltage of a burst's response is better. And sure, we can calculate that only having the peak voltage. I meant really continuous power over like 10secs or more vs peak power like in LG's rating. It would be better to know both. Then we could decide what an amp we need, depending on the situation. A chaotic band that kicks down mic stands with mics on? Better lesser peak power if you don't want to be buying speakers. A controlled band or maybe a HT? Then so much peak power that the crest factor of what you want to go to the speakers is taken care of well.
These amps have voltage limiters. If you're using amps that don't, your processors should.
notnyt is online now  
post #4774 of 4816 Old 11-28-2014, 04:49 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
These amps have voltage limiters. If you're using amps that don't, your processors should.
Yes, I know. But why do we need a high peak power if we are not going to use it because the voltage limiter is not going to let it happen? Slew rate? Should be already enough. I think, if we need high peak power then because we really need it because the music demands it. What would be the advantage of having a high peak power if we are to going to use it because the limiter is set so tight that is just won't reach the speakers? Maybe I didn't understand you.
always-ultra is offline  
post #4775 of 4816 Old 11-28-2014, 04:49 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Did you mean for adapting to different situations?
always-ultra is offline  
post #4776 of 4816 Old 11-28-2014, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
Did you mean for adapting to different situations?
Yep. I'm not running a limiter on mine. I'm running a highpass to protect drivers below tune, otherwise they're not going to hurt my subs because its a properly designed system.
notnyt is online now  
post #4777 of 4816 Old 11-28-2014, 05:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I see. You can do that in your situation. For the case of a PA there are trade-offs to be made, which of course are OT in a HT forum. But the ideas are aplicable to your upcoming measurements as well. What I mean is: continuous power rating and peak power rating are different specs of an amp and I think that we need both, at least generally speaking. Consider the case of an amp that can produce 100W continuous and 10kW peak (like D.Keele said) for a bass player not slapping. If the 100W continuous are enough for him: does he need 10kW peak? No way. Then why pay for it? On the other side, if the 100W continuous are not enough (very possible playing e-bass on a large stage) then he needs a more powerful amp despite the 10kW peak. That said, I would prefer to have the best amp in the world if I could afford it. If not I would prefer to be able to select the right amp I really need so I don't pay for something I don't need, like the high continuous power (or low peak power in relation) of the crest if what I need is amplifying timbales or bongos... In that case something like the FP14000 would be for sure a better choice.
always-ultra is offline  
post #4778 of 4816 Old 11-30-2014, 05:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quoting Mr. Holland: "These numbers are per channel in stereo mode into 4Ω. They would have been higher at 2Ω, though voltage and the SPL from your loudspeakers would be lower. Chew on that. I hate this whole watts thing – just did it for the peanut gallery – next time it’s volts like God intended."

I don't think that's true. Voltage may have been lower at 2Ω but if the total output power was higher then the total SPL must be higher too despite the lower voltage. It's not the voltage that drives the speakers but the current flowing through them. Speakers are not voltage sensitive but 100% current driven devices. No current, no electromagnetic force. A speaker rated as 4Ω will be louder than the same speaker rated at 8Ω if the same AC voltage is applied to both since the current flowing through the 4Ω speaker will be higher. And it's current what Ampere's law is about.
always-ultra is offline  
post #4779 of 4816 Old 11-30-2014, 06:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I know less than squat... but have been reading a bit about these very dynamic amps. The whole 100 watt continuous and 10000 watt very short term (dynamic) thing.

It seems that for most non square wave (non MOST extreme) circumstances that the instantaneous voltage potential is very important to reproducing (tracking) the dynamic wave forms of real world sound reproduction.

I doubt most common large subwoofer voice coils could handle (not burn, melt, or come unwound) 2000 watts continuous (square wave) for more than a few seconds without starting to fatigue or fail. But from the measurements of real world recorded material I have seen so far that on average the voltage swings called upon have been large, while the continuous power has been much less so even for extreme material. The large voltage swing potential has been more beneficial for dynamics.

I am having fun learning about this stuff though.

All of the different power supply types and amplifier stage types (and inefficiencies) keeps me coming back for more edumication.

For 25 years I have just picked an amp with manufacture specs than matched the power rating on the speakers. That is not such a bad way to go from well known manufactures, but it appears to leave a lot on the table as far as dynamic potential... I will change my mind if I melt a good subwoofer though!
cellarnoise is offline  
post #4780 of 4816 Old 12-01-2014, 08:04 AM
Member
 
Jason kiDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 129
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Yes.
I live close enough if you need any help. Just let me know in advance..
Jason kiDD is offline  
post #4781 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 05:08 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I did it again... This time the power resistors exploded so loudly on my left ear that I had to go to a scpecialist that prescribed me cortison so the hearing loss is hopefully temporary... What a mess. I need my ears.

Be careful!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20141130_232354.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	217.1 KB
ID:	399298   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20141130_232428.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	244.7 KB
ID:	399306  
always-ultra is offline  
post #4782 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 09:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,319
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
I did it again... This time the power resistors exploded so loudly on my left ear that I had to go to a scpecialist that prescribed me cortison so the hearing loss is hopefully temporary... What a mess. I need my ears.

Be careful!
Sheesh, you are going to have to come up with a better solution for resistors before you really get hurt.

______________________________________________
Joe = LFE Addict
Joe's LOWARHORN build
Dual LMS-5400 Ultra Endtables build
jpmst3 is offline  
post #4783 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 585


Just need to get a pail, fill it, and wire these up
You can't be air cooling at these power levels.
notnyt is online now  
post #4784 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 09:46 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Just need to get a pail, fill it, and wire these up
Have you measured their resistance yet? If so I'd be interesting in knowing. Do you know how constant they stay under changing temp?
always-ultra is offline  
post #4785 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
Have you measured their resistance yet? How high are they? Do you know how constant they stay under changing temp?
They measure 13.3-13.4 ohms cold. Three of them in parallel gives me about 4.45 ohms. I haven't run any current through them yet, but I'll take measurements again after doing so.
notnyt is online now  
post #4786 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 10:01 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
You can't be air cooling at these power levels.
I know... I was really careful and measuring only for short times and controlling the temp of the resistors and everything went well. But then I saw an oscillation in the output of the Crest Pro 8200 when using square waves that got my attention (the P2500S didn't show that), and wanted to know if they became smaller or bigger with higher output... I boost the input, the wave changes, the fans of the amp speed up instantly, I go back quickly to lower input, the fans slow down again instantly. I though, interesting... So the fans react directly to the current and not temp when I higher the input like this... Hmmm.. Let's see it again... ! ! ! ! B A N G ! ! ! ! I guess that was stupid to say the least.
always-ultra is offline  
post #4787 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by always-ultra View Post
I know... I was really careful and measuring only for short times and controlling the temp of the resistors and everything went well. But then I saw an oscillation in the output of the Crest Pro 8200 when using square waves that got my attention (the P2500S didn't show that), and wanted to know if they became smaller or bigger with higher output... I boost the input, the wave changes, the fans of the amp speed up instantly, I go back quickly to lower input, the fans slow down again instantly. I though, interesting... So the fans react directly to the current and not temp when I higher the input like this... Hmmm.. Let's see it again... ! ! ! ! B A N G ! ! ! ! I guess that was stupid to say the least.
Temp changes really fast internally when you boost signal. I'd be surprised if they ran off input and not temperature. Easy to test, boost input, lower volume knob.

Sorry about your ear, hope it heals well.
notnyt is online now  
post #4788 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 10:13 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Temp changes really fast internally when you boost signal. I'd be surprised if they ran off input and not temperature. Easy to test, boost input, lower volume knob.
I meant, they seem to be controlled by the current flow of the output, sure by temp as well. But they reacted just too fast, really instantly. It was like controlling them directly with the amplitude knob of the function generator. I guess their controlling circuit uses a mix of temp and current flowing through the amp's output (I didn't mean the input amplitude).
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Sorry about your ear, hope it heals well.
Thank you. I hope so too...
always-ultra is offline  
post #4789 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 10:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
MemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Thanks for the info.





Awesome info, cheers for posting, gents


Quote:
Originally Posted by cellarnoise View Post
Can a balanced minidsp 2x4 with 2 volt output drive a clone adequately?
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Yes.
Dumb question...

... can a Balanced miniDSP 2x4 with a 2v output drive a CV5000 adequately?

I only ask because I can't get the input clip lights or even the input 0dB lights to light up on my CV5000 with an REW-produced -3dB 60Hz sine wave via the SW Out from my Onkyo 818, which I'm led to understand has 4.6v output... ??
MemX is online now  
post #4790 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by MemX View Post
Awesome info, cheers for posting, gents




Dumb question...

... can a Balanced miniDSP 2x4 with a 2v output drive a CV5000 adequately?

I only ask because I can't get the input clip lights or even the input 0dB lights to light up on my CV5000 with an REW-produced -3dB 60Hz sine wave via the SW Out from my Onkyo 818, which I'm led to understand has 4.6v output... ??
Console the minidsp and look at the signal levels while doing so. Should give you an idea what's going on.
notnyt is online now  
post #4791 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 02:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: East side of NW Cascades
Posts: 3,366
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 457
I'd help, but live 2400miles away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
When I see that, this thread now reminds me of photonicinduction.
He took a 240Volt 100amp breaker and dumped that into a DIY 50,000ampere RMS transformer.


and his newest 2015 DIY 20,000watt RMS transformer with over 500volts RMS of step-up.


He likes blowing stuff up with excessive electricity, both volts and amps.
(Even inside his house, like burning the carpet and all.) He's a bit nutz, but his vids are pure-winning.

Will in Blend? Will it Microwave? Who knows!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	145.jpg
Views:	290
Size:	182.3 KB
ID:	399810   Click image for larger version

Name:	144.jpg
Views:	293
Size:	99.3 KB
ID:	399818  
kingpin111 likes this.
BassThatHz is offline  
post #4792 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 04:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
MemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 59
I've not watched it but '10 Second Toaster' and that freezeframe tells me everything I need to know LOL


Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Console the minidsp and look at the signal levels while doing so. Should give you an idea what's going on.
I need to buy the miniDSP, so I'm just hoping I don't clip the hell out of it by feeding it too much from the AVR when I do get it, hence I haven't got it yet!

I understand the unbalanced RCA Out of the SW Out on the AVR will mean I can have up to 4v input into the Balanced miniDSP, so I will just need to check out signal levels and set my gain structures, as you suggest... Mission! lol
MemX is online now  
post #4793 of 4816 Old 12-03-2014, 10:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: East side of NW Cascades
Posts: 3,366
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by MemX View Post
I need to buy the miniDSP, so I'm just hoping I don't clip the hell out of it by feeding it too much from the AVR when I do get it, hence I haven't got it yet!

I understand the unbalanced RCA Out of the SW Out on the AVR will mean I can have up to 4v input into the Balanced miniDSP, so I will just need to check out signal levels and set my gain structures, as you suggest... Mission! lol
You are worrying too much.
Hook the miniDSP up to a computer, it will tell you if it is clipping or not. Adjust the AVR and miniDSP output gain accordingly.
Just keeping it below -6db and you'll be fine.
Turn the amp's volume all the way down when you first play it so you don't blow up anything, it will quickly become apparent where you need to set it once you pump some heavy movie bass through it.
Unless you have the amp set to the highest sensitivity you are unlikely to clip its input.
MemX likes this.
BassThatHz is offline  
post #4794 of 4816 Old 12-14-2014, 03:12 PM
Senior Member
 
javi404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Anyone else notice the post numbers are off by 2?

Is it just me?

Did this thread officially break AVSforum?
javi404 is offline  
post #4795 of 4816 Old 12-14-2014, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by javi404 View Post
Anyone else notice the post numbers are off by 2?

Is it just me?

Did this thread officially break AVSforum?
Likely deleted posts.
notnyt is online now  
post #4796 of 4816 Old 12-16-2014, 04:42 PM
Member
 
Monkeys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Hello all,

So I finally had one of my FP10Q's die on me last night. After many many hours of abuse it has not skipped a single beat, then suddenly last night while watching a movie on very low volume it decided to crap out on me.

It's doing a weird this where it seems like it is trying to start up but the power keeps cutting out and flicking on and off.

I've uploaded a video, if some of the experts here wouldn't mind having a look at the video and telling me what they think might be a good place to start I would really appreciate it.

BTW this is what the unit does without any signal plugged in, and I have only switched it on once, and then off once in this video (despite what it looks like).

http://vid1060.photobucket.com/album...IMG_1658_1.mp4

I haven't opened it up yet to have a look, I'm going to do that now. I figured it was worth posting it up here to see if anyone has experienced a similar issue.

Cheers
Monkeys is offline  
post #4797 of 4816 Old 12-16-2014, 04:47 PM
Advanced Member
 
WereWolf84's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Monkeys, curious to know how long is the lifespan of your FP10Q? because my FP14K also died around last week
WereWolf84 is online now  
post #4798 of 4816 Old 12-16-2014, 05:00 PM
Member
 
Monkeys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by WereWolf84 View Post
Monkeys, curious to know how long is the lifespan of your FP10Q? because my FP14K also died around last week
Not that old really, I bought three units in March this year.

They have served me very well though I must admit. I have been using them for outdoor events on a large PA running bass duty =P

I guess if I can diagnose the problem I can always contact Johnson and request a replacement board or whatever is needed since it is still technically within the 1Yr warranty
Monkeys is offline  
post #4799 of 4816 Old 12-16-2014, 07:11 PM
Member
 
Shan87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Mine died a week or so back finally... It started the random cycling of course but only when it was at idle... If you were playing bass heavy music through it then it would work perfectly until it came back down to idle for a few minutes but now it just cycles on and off.
Shan87 is offline  
post #4800 of 4816 Old 12-16-2014, 08:09 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I bought a dead FP14000 that was power cycling. After about 50 hours of playing with it and having a friend with a scope check it out the following post solved this particular problem for my amp. Has been working well for several months.

buy one of these:
http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/P...WrX8IHli/VDQ==

check out post #3488 or #3492 and #3908 . I went with a single turn trimmer as it fit the spot correctly. There is not much room around the CAPs to fit a multi-turn variable resistor. The solder joints on these amps is not always the best....

I dialed the single turn variable resistor to 2500 ohm total resistance. Worked great after that. Also check the other resistors in the general area for proper soldering to the board.

Good luck.

Attached is a graphic showing the variable resistor installation location:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fp14000_resistor_fix.jpeg
Views:	22
Size:	66.8 KB
ID:	426737  
cellarnoise is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Tags
Lab Gruppen Fp 14000 , Sanway Fp 10000q
Gear in this thread - 10000q by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off