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post #5041 of 5126 Old 06-18-2015, 07:44 AM
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So am i to assume enhanced means 2 ohms stable or nah?
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post #5042 of 5126 Old 06-18-2015, 08:37 AM
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So am i to assume enhanced means 2 ohms stable or nah?
2 ohm stable under what configuration?
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post #5043 of 5126 Old 06-18-2015, 03:43 PM
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They're all 2 ohm stable if you just don't have max voltage gain and stick to the rated power
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post #5044 of 5126 Old 06-18-2015, 04:27 PM
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Looks like http://hyaudio.en.alibaba.com/ (HyAudio AKA HyProAudio) and Merrysound has the same offerings, but MS offer payment through Paypal while HY does not.

This is the enhanced FP14000 from HY. Going to contact them as Merrysound has slow response rate and seem to be overcharging for shipping.

HYAudio looks legit by their Alibaba profile, they're a 6 years gold supplier.

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I like bass
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post #5045 of 5126 Old 06-18-2015, 04:59 PM
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*Scratches self furiously* "No! Stop itching for upgrade! Three EP4000 is more than enough!".
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post #5046 of 5126 Old 06-19-2015, 06:34 PM
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Def interested in picking up another FB14K, so let us know ill scoop one up
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post #5047 of 5126 Old 06-20-2015, 03:13 AM
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Shipping from Merrysound to Norway was $298 for an enhanced FP10000Q. In addition they want a $25 bank transfer fee. Not going to happen. Have asked why they charge so much for shipping in comparison to their competitors.

I like bass
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post #5048 of 5126 Old 06-20-2015, 03:16 AM
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post #5049 of 5126 Old 06-20-2015, 08:50 AM
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"special" handling....
They love it long time?
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post #5050 of 5126 Old 06-20-2015, 08:52 AM
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They love it long time?
special treatment 300 dolla!!?!?!?!?!

I think only five dolla!!!

I like bass
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post #5051 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 07:22 AM
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ADDED 25TH OF JUNE

All of the below are based on false assumptions on my part due to lack of information.


My friend has given me some insight into the situation. With 8 x TD18H+ per amplifier – 4 on each channel in a double bass array where most room gain is lost, I can only imagine what filters are implemented to compensate.

There has been extreme loudness levels here, and I've got reason to believe that the amplifiers have failed due to extreme conditions and abuse. Some distortion from the preamp were also found around 20 Hz, so it may have been feed a distorted signal when under heavy abuse. This is a camper who likes it LOUD!

I will update my first post with this information as I personally no longer feel that this is an issue with the clones, but rather how they've been used. I'm also disgruntled that this information was not given to me earlier.

Our friendship has been an online one, and he doesn't communicate English all that well, so I've helped him out.

Bottom line, I still think the Sanway clones are great.



Original post:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time for a horror story.


A friend of mine has 16 x TD18H+ 8 ohm with Apollo in a double bass array. He is driving the array with two Sanway FP14000 clones. The wiring is done by having 4 drivers on each channel wired for 8 ohms. This has been verified by measuring the DC resistance on the 4, 4, 4, 4 setup to ~6 Ohms each. He runs each amp in stereo.

A few weeks back the fuse on one of his channels popped. This happened while he was playing music at low levels. He tried swapping the fuse with nothing connected, but they blew. He just opted to purchase a new card from Sanway.

Yesterday the same thing happened again, only this time it was the second amp and a completely unrelated channel. He had been using the system for some time, then left and had it idle without music. He was not even in the room when there was suddenly a loud pop as one of the channels popped. This time the failure was fatal.

The four very expensive TD18H+ drivers on that channel fried as they now all make loud scraping noises when the cone is pushed in. Most likely they saw full DC, glue melted and the coil windings came undone.

-----

An observation


When my Sanway FP14000 clone popped it happened after having played low level music for many hours. When it failed the one LMSU cone on that channel popped out like you wouldn't believe. I'm sure it maxed out its travel.

-----

I have a theory.

These amplifiers have no DC protection (or a poorly implemented one), and that's why they can output a ton of power below 10 Hz. The issue is obviously that when something fails it can be fatal.

My LMSU probably didn't fry as it is built to handle more power than TD18H+ or I was simply lucky.

Since this has now happened 3 times, all times when playing low level music or idling, I'm thinking that it can be a heat issue? If A/B amps are idling, they are producing more heat, no? If that's the case then idling these amps can cause failure to some circuitry that makes it output full DC directly to the cones without any protection.

I'm not competent, so this theory is based on what little I know about amplifiers.

-----

Solutions

Would it be possible for us to secure our drivers by building an external DC protection circuit? We would have to make an analog high pass filter, right? So yes, we'd loose some output in the single digits, but at least we won't lose our drivers if this is the case.

-----

Don't be a jackass


I don't want to hear the obvious tune that "hah! that's what you get for buying Chinese knockoffs" etc. We all knew this was a risk, we're DIY'ers and we took the risk knowing it might go belly up. Now we deal with it.

I like bass

Last edited by GizzeGutten; 06-25-2015 at 05:15 AM. Reason: typo
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post #5052 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 09:28 AM
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Simple solution, play louder
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post #5053 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 10:30 AM
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Simple solution, play louder
Good idea, I've got one too. We don't even turn the amplifiers on!

But seriously though. Hopefully we can try to figure this one out so we don't fry more drivers. I'm not very tech savvy, but as far as I know idling or close to idling class A/B amplifiers run hotter than when under "normal use".

After writing the post above I learned that some time prior to this happening he had been running the system hard enough to make a 16A breaker on 230V trip. That would be in excess of 230*16=3680w. Both amplifiers are on one breaker though.

---

After having replaced my damaged boards I saw that one board had some obvious damage. One at the diodes(?) and resistors, and one of those things sticking up there had exploded. What are they and what function do they serve?


I like bass
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post #5054 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 03:12 PM
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Ask the manufacturer, Sanway is very helpful in determining the cause of failures so that when cards are replaced its not the remaining cards that cause the error time and time again.
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post #5055 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 03:23 PM
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I know Mr Johnson is very helpful, but we're talking about three different amplifiers in two different households doing the same thing here. And it's not user error. The impedance of our systems are above what they are said to be stable for, namely 4 and 8 ohms.

The only known common denominator is that we're running them on 230V lines, so it seems to be systemic to the amplifier design I'm afraid.

When my boards said good night he had no good reason why it had happened. We only tried to troubleshoot if replacing smaller components on one of the boards would work, but they were both burned to badly to be fixed.

I like bass
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post #5056 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 03:58 PM
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I know Mr Johnson is very helpful, but we're talking about three different amplifiers in two different households doing the same thing here. And it's not user error. The impedance of our systems are above what they are said to be stable for, namely 4 and 8 ohms.

The only known common denominator is that we're running them on 230V lines, so it seems to be systemic to the amplifier design I'm afraid.

When my boards said good night he had no good reason why it had happened. We only tried to troubleshoot if replacing smaller components on one of the boards would work, but they were both burned to badly to be fixed.
2 amps happening to go in the same time period with the same burnt parts (?) is hardly a design flaw. There's people that have ground their amps down with max wattage for years, basic statistics tells us some are going to fail in the same way at some point. Just replace the card(s) and keep going. If it keeps happening we can investigate. But frankly with kilowatt equipment there's going to be failures, like if you put a huge turbocharger on your car and redline it between every gear change. They probably last a lot longer if you split the load on two amps instead of running one to the max.
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post #5057 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 04:27 PM
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2 amps happening to go in the same time period with the same burnt parts (?) is hardly a design flaw. There's people that have ground their amps down with max wattage for years, basic statistics tells us some are going to fail in the same way at some point. Just replace the card(s) and keep going. If it keeps happening we can investigate. But frankly with kilowatt equipment there's going to be failures, like if you put a huge turbocharger on your car and redline it between every gear change. They probably last a lot longer if you split the load on two amps instead of running one to the max.
3 amplifiers. His and mine. Mine failed after a couple of months, both of his after 9-10 months or so. This is also in a home environment, not subject to the wear and tear of touring. This is 3 out of 4 amplifiers, and even though the sample is small it's smart to start asking why.

After you've just burned 4 x TD18H+ you're going to ask questions. You wonder why it happened and how you can avoid it.

I've got two amps, both of them running a pair of LMSU. I'm not redlining these. My room is small and I've never tripped the breaker. Still one of the amps blew and even though I _may_ have been the reason for one of the cards popping while measuring, the first card certainly popped all on its own.

I'm not bad mouthing the amplifiers here. I'm trying to get to the bottom of it and maybe get some ideas as to what has happened. If they don't have DC protection I'm going to have to get something built, as I'm not first in line to have one or two LMSU burned.

I like bass
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post #5058 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 04:28 PM
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3 amplifiers. His and mine. Mine failed after a couple of months, both of his after 9-10 months or so. This is also in a home environment, not subject to the wear and tear of touring. This is 3 out of 4 amplifiers, and even though the sample is small it's smart to start asking why.

After you've just burned 4 x TD18H+ you're going to ask questions. You wonder why it happened and how you can avoid it.

I've got two amps, both of them running a pair of LMSU. I'm not redlining these. My room is small and I've never tripped the breaker. Still one of the amps blew and even though I _may_ have been the reason for one of the cards popping while measuring, the first card certainly popped all on its own.

I'm not bad mouthing the amplifiers here. I'm trying to get to the bottom of it and maybe get some ideas as to what has happened. If they don't have DC protection I'm going to have to get something built, as I'm not first in line to have one or two LMSU burned.
3 out of thousands.
Also I'm not convinced you had proper wattage to your speakers. Tons in here boost parts of the spectrum to account for base sensitivity and then they end up frying their drivers when a song or movie happens to have tons of that frequency. +3db boost somewhere doubles wattage given in that frequency, so if you're close to rms power handling of the drivers and boost one tiny part of the spectrum by 3db you reach twice rms power handling when that frequency exist on the movie you both watched recently.
nth edit: Also, the TD18H+ don't have any modern cooling design, heat can easily build up in that voice coil. If you have the wrong sort of power level given to the TD18H's you could have caused the amp to go after the drivers went, instead of the other way around.
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Last edited by ronny31; 06-21-2015 at 04:35 PM.
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post #5059 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 04:32 PM
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3 out of thousands.
Thousands running on 230V?
Thousands in a home environment with a lot of idling and low level playback?

I like bass
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post #5060 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 04:35 PM
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3 out of thousands.
Also I'm not convinced you had proper wattage to your speakers. Tons in here boost parts of the spectrum to account for base sensitivity and then they end up frying their drivers when a song or movie happens to have tons of that frequency. +3db boost somewhere doubles wattage given in that frequency, so if you're close to rms power handling of the drivers and boost one tiny part of the spectrum by 3db you reach twice rms power handling when that frequency exist on the movie you both watched recently.
I don't need any boost. Room and boundary gain kicks in early as my room is small, the enclosures are big and I've got four of them. I'm actually limiting and have the VPL set very low. I've got to ask my friend what kind of filters he has though. I use the clones for the headroom to keep distortion at the absolute minimum.

I like bass
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post #5061 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 04:47 PM
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I don't need any boost. Room and boundary gain kicks in early as my room is small, the enclosures are big and I've got four of them. I'm actually limiting and have the VPL set very low. I've got to ask my friend what kind of filters he has though. I use the clones for the headroom to keep distortion at the absolute minimum.
So am I to assume the enclosures are not EQ'ed? And run a known rms wattage that is under 1000 watt per driver when you crank it up to full volume?
3 out of thousands of Sanway clones that have been sold. The entire free world uses 230v.
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post #5062 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 04:58 PM
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I'd love to have the same confidence as you in the clones for this particular application, I sure used to have until all of this happened.

It might just be that these amps require more cooling when idling a lot on 230V. It might be that they are sensitive to main line surges when operated on 230V. It may be, it may be.

FYI the amp that blew on me was the home theater version with thermostat controlled fan operation (had one of each). After the failure I got help from Mr Johnson and his engineer on how to successfully desolder the whole temperature monitoring and control system, and I've not had any problem since.

This is one of the reasons why I'm thinking that idling may not be good for the clones if in fact the temp increase more than under normal load due to the topology. I'm not confident there are thousands of Sanway clones sitting in home theaters running on 230V.

My enclosures are EQ'ed, but not boosted. His I don't know yet. Shipped him an email after your last post to ask about his DSP settings.

China uses 220V and the US 110V. The amplifiers are rated for what? 240V? Have to look at the rear panel. What happens if it sees 245V for a few ms? Surges can happen.

Thanks for the help. Not debating here, just trying to figure this out, if there is anything to figure out. One thing I need to know is if there is any kind of DC protection, going to ask Mr Johnson about that.

I like bass
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post #5063 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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post #5064 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 05:05 PM
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Perhaps bad power in your area?
I've been monitoring the main line. Very stable around 230V. 228-233V is what I have recorded, but I've only got a measurement device sitting next to the coffee machine and looking at many times a day, so not recording, just simple samples. If there are surges, I'm not catching them. Maybe I should get some kind of monitoring system that tracks the voltage here just to see. None of us have had any issues with other amplifiers or other AV electronics though.

Friends area I don't know, he's on the opposite side of the country.

I like bass
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post #5065 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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*shrug* could be a bad batch, just throwing some ideas out there. Could be a messed up source feeding it dc or grounding issues between sources if not running fully balanced... Anyway, could always order from hyaudio and test their product.
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post #5066 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 05:25 PM
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I'd love to have the same confidence as you in the clones for this particular application, I sure used to have until all of this happened.

It might just be that these amps require more cooling when idling a lot on 230V. It might be that they are sensitive to main line surges when operated on 230V. It may be, it may be.

FYI the amp that blew on me was the home theater version with thermostat controlled fan operation (had one of each). After the failure I got help from Mr Johnson and his engineer on how to successfully desolder the whole temperature monitoring and control system, and I've not had any problem since.

This is one of the reasons why I'm thinking that idling may not be good for the clones if in fact the temp increase more than under normal load due to the topology. I'm not confident there are thousands of Sanway clones sitting in home theaters running on 230V.

My enclosures are EQ'ed, but not boosted. His I don't know yet. Shipped him an email after your last post to ask about his DSP settings.

China uses 220V and the US 110V. The amplifiers are rated for what? 240V? Have to look at the rear panel. What happens if it sees 245V for a few ms? Surges can happen.

Thanks for the help. Not debating here, just trying to figure this out, if there is anything to figure out. One thing I need to know is if there is any kind of DC protection, going to ask Mr Johnson about that.
Well I keep my EP4000 amps cycling on full fan powah because they're not in the same room as me. Power supplies are so inefficient at low power levels that they need cooling even if the amplification unit itself isn't requiring any power. There's a noticeable 20ms dimming of lights on one circuit in the house when I turn on each of my power amps due to the power supply draw at zero amplification output (particularly to fill the caps at first). I would not be surprised at all if each EP4000 draws 250 watts minimum because of this, and 250 watts takes some cooling effort. Its about twice my 8 core CPU power output. 125 watts keeps my 2 inch thick 12x12cm radiator liquid cooling with two 12cm 3000rpm fans at 50 degrees C at full CPU load (that's the radiator at 50C, the CPU is at over 70). So if the fans are silent or not running then there's definitely potential for problems. Most amps I'm sure will handle this temperature, but a portion of them do not handle power equally well. Its a problem I come across with overclocking PC hardware as well, some CPUs go way lower than the norm in the exact same model. That's why CPUs are clocked way under what most of them can handle.
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post #5067 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 05:26 PM
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*shrug* could be a bad batch, just throwing some ideas out there. Could be a messed up source feeding it dc or grounding issues between sources if not running fully balanced... Anyway, could always order from hyaudio and test their product.
Thanks.

Yeah, still waiting for reply from HYAudio, they're probably closed during the weekend. Not afraid to go with Sanway for the normal FP10000Q after I've spoken with Johnson about 230V and idling temps. I'm sure he is interested to know and fix it if there is something they can do.

Could be a bad batch as all the three amps that failed were bought in the same time frame whereas the first one I got was bought earlier and has not had any issues. Going to have my friend take pictures of his broken boards and compare damages with the two that failed on me. He's kind of depressed right now and not ready to investigate. Very understandable as fixing those AE TD18H+'s to get the DBA up and running can't be done in a couple of days...

I believe he is running miniDSP OpenDRC-AN while I'm using a miniDSP 4x10 HD w/48kHz plugin (for stable low frequency filters thanks to your post on miniDSP's forums). All using BAL connections.

I like bass
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post #5068 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 05:35 PM
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Oh, and by boost I do not mean bass boost or anything with that name, simply EQ'ing the bass frequencies with REW with any addition anywhere is enough. lets say there's a 5db dip at 50hz and then REW adds 3db there, then that frequency is boosted. If you measure the rms wattage of your maximum output with a 80hz test tone, then when you have 50hz information you will be over rms by 100%. If the amp can dish that out. Otherwise it just clips, which is not exactly better. The problem also is, it could clip for such a small amount of time, that one occasional 50hz signal through a movie, that the clip light don't show clipping.
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post #5069 of 5126 Old 06-21-2015, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
Well I keep my EP4000 amps cycling on full fan powah because they're not in the same room as me. Power supplies are so inefficient at low power levels that they need cooling even if the amplification unit itself isn't requiring any power. There's a noticeable 20ms dimming of lights on one circuit in the house when I turn on each of my power amps due to the power supply draw at zero amplification output (particularly to fill the caps at first). I would not be surprised at all if each EP4000 draws 250 watts minimum because of this, and 250 watts takes some cooling effort. Its about twice my 8 core CPU power output. 125 watts keeps my 2 inch thick 12x12cm radiator liquid cooling with two 12cm 3000rpm fans at 50 degrees C at full CPU load (that's the radiator at 50C, the CPU is at over 70). So if the fans are silent or not running then there's definitely potential for problems. Most amps I'm sure will handle this temperature, but a portion of them do not handle power equally well. Its a problem I come across with overclocking PC hardware as well, some CPUs go way lower than the norm in the exact same model. That's why CPUs are clocked way under what most of them can handle.
Thanks ronny.

Yup. I run the fans at full throttle now, they're not fan modded and are sitting outside the room in an open rack with lots of air on all sides. They're also spaced 1U apart. Suspect that my first amp may have failed due to temp control system not being optimal, so had it removed. My friend's amps are sitting next to each other on the floor with fans going full speed too.

There is no dimming here when firing them up. Believe they're idling at 150w, can measure again as it's been a while. 150w is still a lot of heat though. I also measured the exhaust temps a while back, on the failed amp it was higher than on the one that never failed. Conditions were equal. Asked Johnson why, he didn't have a good answer why they differed. The fans in one unit sounds higher pitched, and might be running faster. Can't discern by feeling the air velocity by hand at the exhaust, they seem about equal. Will come back with info on all of this later.

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post #5070 of 5126 Old 06-22-2015, 05:34 AM
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just to try and catch up are you popping channel boards or the power boards?
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