Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 170 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #5071 of 5086 Old 06-22-2015, 06:12 AM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason kiDD View Post
just to try and catch up are you popping channel boards or the power boards?
It's explained in detail above, but long story short. The channel boards are popping for a friend and me. I've replaced two, he has replaced one a couple of weeks ago, and now it happened for him again with another amp. One of the two boards I replaced may have been popped by me when I made a big mistake when measuring.

I like bass
GizzeGutten is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #5072 of 5086 Old 06-22-2015, 08:39 AM
Member
 
Jason kiDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Channel boards will most probably go (fuses) when something isnt wired right down stream. If you havent already I would check your wiring for breaks and/or stray contacts..
GizzeGutten likes this.
Jason kiDD is offline  
post #5073 of 5086 Old 06-22-2015, 08:52 AM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason kiDD View Post
Channel boards will most probably go (fuses) when something isnt wired right down stream. If you havent already I would check your wiring for breaks and/or stray contacts..
Thank you, but could you say that in layman's terms? English is not my native tongue.

If I understand correctly, down stream means speakers/subs/whatever, while up stream means source?

Never heard the term 'stray contacts', what is it? Breaks as in kinks and possible shorts?

I like bass
GizzeGutten is offline  
post #5074 of 5086 Old 06-22-2015, 10:52 AM
Member
 
Jason kiDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
Thank you, but could you say that in layman's terms? English is not my native tongue.

If I understand correctly, down stream means speakers/subs/whatever, while up stream means source?

Never heard the term 'stray contacts', what is it? Breaks as in kinks and possible shorts?
Sorry i was in a meeting.. These amps have little to no short protections circuits. I detailed once when my coworker was checking a look NL4 cable on the speaker end ended up blowing a fuse on the channel board just because the two contacts touched. Same would go for bad wiring on the speaker side.

Only thing that stood out to me is that you and your friend had a multitude of drivers per channel. I would double check your wiring (from and down) to make sure everything is correct and clean..
GizzeGutten likes this.
Jason kiDD is offline  
post #5075 of 5086 Old 06-22-2015, 07:22 PM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason kiDD View Post
Sorry i was in a meeting.. These amps have little to no short protections circuits. I detailed once when my coworker was checking a look NL4 cable on the speaker end ended up blowing a fuse on the channel board just because the two contacts touched. Same would go for bad wiring on the speaker side.

Only thing that stood out to me is that you and your friend had a multitude of drivers per channel. I would double check your wiring (from and down) to make sure everything is correct and clean..
Thanks again. I only run one LMSU per channel, four drivers on two FP14000. He runs 4 x TD18H+ per channel for a total of 16 on two FP14000's.

That's very interesting. When my amp blew I was using Speakon on the enclosures, but banana plugs on the amp. After having fixed the amp speakon was installed on the amp side too. Been very cautious doing continuity testing and using heat shrink tubes etc to make sure there are no shorts here. Also, I'm not having any problems after this was fixed.

He is using the banana plugs, but they are wired in series and parallel at the enclosures so only two leads from each of the quad drivers on each channel goes to the amp for a cleaner setup, but banana plugs are far from optimal in such a high power setup I assume?

I recall Johnson asking me to check the wiring when my amp blew too.

Brought your advice forward to my friend, and asked him to install proper speakon connectors an put his multimeter to good use.

I like bass
GizzeGutten is offline  
post #5076 of 5086 Old 06-22-2015, 10:09 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Norway
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Wait, banana-plugs or 1/4" jack plugs?
Jacks basically shorts out every time you take them in and out of the socket. Hardly ideal. There's only so much separation between them as well, a thin piece of plastic separates the two conductors, one grain of dust that is slightly conductive (like a single fiber of copper from cutting wires long ago) across that, or even just fat from fatty fingers, or salt, and it could be enough to arc across worst case scenario. Also don't lock in place, so if they are pulled slightly out by accident, pet, child, opening the rack door, etc then it can short out. Or be really really close to shorting out, then arcing across at a particular peak voltage (one good bass thump). The arc then decreases the resistance of the air where the arc travels, so more and more current goes across in that short voltage peak. So once an arc gets going, its often really bad, even though it usually only lasts one tiny voltage peak. Its why speakon is such a universal thing now.
If its really banana-plugs, separate plugs for each conductor, then the list of things that can short out and go wrong is much shorter. But stray copper fibers, speaker terminals with bad insulation, stray copper fibers near the speaker terminals, stray copper fibers near the wires from the terminals to the voice coil. Like stuff resting on the spider copper wires in designs where the spider conductor is open to the air, one random stray piece of copper or dirty enough lint crosses that path during a very high voltage peak, then arcing can happen. Don't even need to be any metal in the piece of debris that shorts it out, if its electrical resistance is just a few orders of magnitude less than air then suddenly arcing can occur at high power peaks.
GizzeGutten likes this.
ronny31 is offline  
post #5077 of 5086 Old 06-22-2015, 10:14 PM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
As promised: Did some main line measurements of the FP14000 clone on 230V. Got a meter that sits between the wall socket and the appliance. Not sure how precise the tool is and how fast it samples but here's what I got.

FP14000 from Sanway, 230V

No power, ghost draw, 0.3w
Power on max draw 981w (1-3 seconds)
Idle draw, 123w

INUKE NU6000, 230V (for comparison)
No power, ghost draw, 0.2w
Power on max draw, 136w (1-3 seconds)
Idle draw, 62w
TMcG and ronny31 like this.

I like bass
GizzeGutten is offline  
post #5078 of 5086 Old 06-22-2015, 10:32 PM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
Wait, banana-plugs or 1/4" jack plugs?
Jacks basically shorts out every time you take them in and out of the socket. Hardly ideal. There's only so much separation between them as well, a thin piece of plastic separates the two conductors, one grain of dust that is slightly conductive (like a single fiber of copper from cutting wires long ago) across that, or even just fat from fatty fingers, or salt, and it could be enough to arc across worst case scenario. Also don't lock in place, so if they are pulled slightly out by accident, pet, child, opening the rack door, etc then it can short out. Or be really really close to shorting out, then arcing across at a particular peak voltage (one good bass thump). The arc then decreases the resistance of the air where the arc travels, so more and more current goes across in that short voltage peak. So once an arc gets going, its often really bad, even though it usually only lasts one tiny voltage peak. Its why speakon is such a universal thing now.
If its really banana-plugs, separate plugs for each conductor, then the list of things that can short out and go wrong is much shorter. But stray copper fibers, speaker terminals with bad insulation, stray copper fibers near the speaker terminals, stray copper fibers near the wires from the terminals to the voice coil. Like stuff resting on the spider copper wires in designs where the spider conductor is open to the air, one random stray piece of copper or dirty enough lint crosses that path during a very high voltage peak, then arcing can happen. Don't even need to be any metal in the piece of debris that shorts it out, if its electrical resistance is just a few orders of magnitude less than air then suddenly arcing can occur at high power peaks.
Banana, por favor. No TRS jacks, he's using bananas between the amps and the subs and XLR between prepro, dsp and the amps.

Fully agree with the TRS jacks, have been using headphones a lot and know exactly what you mean. ****ty connector, even worse than RCA. XLR and speakon is the way to go now.

I always use red and black electrical tape on my bananas (got a mental image writing that, haha).

Your analysis of how bananas can fail sound very rational and may be a plausible explanation why this has happened. I don't think a lot of people are using bananas on their clones, but both him and I did when **** hit the fan. I had taped the bananas with insulating tape though, so it may be a weakness in the way the binding posts are implemented. Weird that it happened to both of us. He has not been using any insulation around his banana plugs and if there is excess copper wire, well, then that might be it.

Would a short like that somehow be able to fry the coils though, that's what I'm wondering. It's not fun to replace fuses, worse to pay for and install boards and worse yet to have expensive drivers go up in smoke.

Some questions:
1. Can the arcing of those binding posts possibly be happening on the inside of the amp?
2. Can there be arcing between those binding posts when there is no load connected to those binding posts (ie, when using speakon) or must there be a load present? I assume all terminals are live, but when no load is connected then it won't be any current there, right?

I like bass
GizzeGutten is offline  
post #5079 of 5086 Old 06-23-2015, 01:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Norway
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 34
1. Rarely.
2. Yes, but the binding posts themselves are placed so far apart that the rated voltage can't arc between them without a doping agent (copper fiber or dirt, etc).
I think overall, its the amp batch that failed for whatever reason. I would assume the next batch don't have the same tendency however. Though maybe they can be better at repeating the exact same procedure every time in each batch, even if they use new personnel.
GizzeGutten likes this.
ronny31 is offline  
post #5080 of 5086 Old 06-23-2015, 03:26 AM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Anything in particular that makes you think it can be the batch or is it all of the above?

---

Still in the market for a clone, preferably 4 channels. Sanway's FP10000Q is at the top of the list, but researching alternatives.

1. Sanway is fast at replying no matter what the deal is. Sales and customer service is very good as we all know.
2. Gisen are fast at replying and good communication skills, but is more or less out of the question after that poor fuse implementation they did on Torkild's Gisen audio D412 amp.
3. Merrysound has expensive shipping and extremely slow response rate, so not going to get anything from them as I want customer service.
4. HYAudio has not even replied to my simple question about price and shipping for their enhanced FP10000Q.

Find it odd that these two last companies almost put no effort into getting sales. Maybe they are only interested in big orders? They seem like legit suppliers from their long term presence on Alibaba. Weird as hell. Merrysound gave me no reply as to why they charged almost $300 in shipping.

I like bass
GizzeGutten is offline  
post #5081 of 5086 Old 06-23-2015, 05:59 AM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
My friend's drivers may not have been fried. He measured the DC resistance and they measured as if they were fine. It may be that the coil was bumped or that they jumped out of position. When my amp went busto the driver jumped far out, and the same may have happened here. I hope he had the correct polarity, if not they may have been sucked in and slammed against the back of the gap.

So maybe he'll be able to fix them without doing a full recone.

I like bass
GizzeGutten is offline  
post #5082 of 5086 Old 06-23-2015, 07:38 AM
Member
 
Jason kiDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Well thats good news..
Jason kiDD is offline  
post #5083 of 5086 Old 06-23-2015, 03:31 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Norway
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
My friend's drivers may not have been fried. He measured the DC resistance and they measured as if they were fine. It may be that the coil was bumped or that they jumped out of position. When my amp went busto the driver jumped far out, and the same may have happened here. I hope he had the correct polarity, if not they may have been sucked in and slammed against the back of the gap.

So maybe he'll be able to fix them without doing a full recone.
FYI, the current is AC current, so the driver plays both in and out, not only out. Polarity won't change how much it plays in or out, it will just change the resulting db if you have two drivers playing alternating in and out instead of both out at the same time.
ronny31 is offline  
post #5084 of 5086 Old 06-23-2015, 09:59 PM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
FYI, the current is AC current, so the driver plays both in and out, not only out. Polarity won't change how much it plays in or out, it will just change the resulting db if you have two drivers playing alternating in and out instead of both out at the same time.
I know, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when the amps fail there seem to be a burst of DC.

If you have negative polarity, the amp pops and there is DC, then the cone will be sucked in.
If you have positive polarity, the amp pops and there is DC, then the cone will be pushed out.

That can be a huge difference depending on driver's motor structure. If it's sucked in it can bottom out, if pushed out, it can jump out of the gap.
ronny31 likes this.

I like bass
GizzeGutten is offline  
post #5085 of 5086 Old 06-25-2015, 05:13 AM
Senior Member
 
GizzeGutten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norway
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 133 Post(s)
Liked: 59
My friend has given me some insight into the situation. With 8 x TD18H+ per amplifier – 4 on each channel in a double bass array where most room gain is lost, I can only imagine what filters are implemented to compensate.

There has been extreme loudness levels here, and I've got reason to believe that the amplifiers have failed due to extreme conditions and abuse. Some distortion from the preamp were also found around 20 Hz, so it may have been feed a distorted signal when under heavy abuse. This is a camper who likes it LOUD!

I will update my first post with this information as I personally no longer feel that this is an issue with the clones, but rather how they've been used. I'm also disgruntled that this information was not given to me earlier.

Our friendship is an online one, and he doesn't communicate English all that well, so I've helped him out.

Bottom line, I still think the Sanway clones are great.
ronny31 likes this.

I like bass

Last edited by GizzeGutten; 06-25-2015 at 05:18 AM.
GizzeGutten is offline  
post #5086 of 5086 Old 06-25-2015, 12:09 PM
Senior Member
 
FriscoDTM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Judging by some of the factory photos on the alibaba pages, the boards are assembled by hand and will probably have a bit of batch to batch variability. Perhaps some things are subcontracted out or there is more behind their web photos, but I didn't see any signs of SMT assembly systems, reflow ovens, HALT/HASS chambers or similar types of automated manufacturing and test equipment. I had a output board fail on my FP14k on day one after a couple hours of use at moderate volume, in which one of the traces in the board blew along with a bank of transistors, and I would attribute it to the manual nature of the operation and/or lack of operator training, product burn-in and testing.

In addition to the manufacturing methods, there also might be some issues with the way they modulate the fans on some units. My amp arrived with thermal switches installed on two heat sinks, in which the fans were only turned on when these heat sinks got hot enough to close the switch. This was resulting in the fans being off roughly 50% of the time with a frequency of about 5 minutes. I don't see the switches in the photos of the amps on the first couple pages of this thread, and perhaps there is an increase in the failure rate of amps that have the fans cycling on and off. On/off cycling can be a very stringent operating condition for some types of electronics, due to mechanical fatigue introduced by thermal expansion mismatch of different types of materials, and it has the potential to heavily accelerate failures if not designed properly.

In my case, I decided to mod the fans because the fan noise was unbearable, and I found that one of the 80mm fans wasn't turning on when the thermal switch closed because of a problem with the fan control board. Depending on the location of their monitor TCs, fan failure issues might not trip the interlock but allow some parts of the amp to get very hot which again could lead to premature component failures. I ended up adding jumpers to bypass the thermal switches and running one fan from a different 24V source. It's been a great amp when it works, but on some level you get what you pay for and like anything I don't expect it to run forever.

TV 2013 Samsung 75" UN75F6300
AVR 2013 Denon X2000 w/ Audyssey XT
7.2 DIY 1099s (LCR), Yamaha NS-IC600WH (SL, SR), DIY OS-MTM (BL, BR)
Subs Two 19Hz DIY Ported UXL-18s + FP14k + MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced
Calibration CALMAN5, REW, UMIK-1
FriscoDTM is online now  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Tags
Lab Gruppen Fp 14000 , Sanway Fp 10000q
Gear in this thread - 10000q by PriceGrabber.com



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off