Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 172 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:42 PM
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I think I remeber someone having an issue with theirs and they did a reset? and fixed it? Not sure how that's done though.... I don't own a clone yet. I'm curious if the 20000q will do 1hz too?
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post
MK did you get yours fixed or figure out what it was? Mine started doing the exact same thing which sucks and is odd as its literally been off for like 4 months (ive been stupid busy and my AVR died (HDMI Board) and i just finally got around to changing it out

will randomly cut to mute leds both channels ( i only use 1) i noticed it when doing the AVR setup with the new AVR, it seemingly comes and goes randomly, however i can make it happen every time i have it on and then power on another amp.

At first i thought maybe the miniDSP or something else was doing it but reading your post it seems this is the issue
Sounds like you've had a undervolt or power surge on your electrical grid, or perhaps when the AVR blew it damaged the clone.
These things usually happen in pairs+ for a reason... cascade failures.
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Old 09-12-2015, 01:06 PM
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the AVR didnt blow it just stopped working (onkyo HDMI board issue), and it happened when it was off, also everything is through a large UPS/surge protector, nothing else has issues
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Old 09-12-2015, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
Sanway is the best tried and proven supplier of the clones. You contact Mr Johnson Tang through their email: sales@china-sanway.com . You basically ask for what you want and he will send you a Paypal invoice. After you've paid he will use DHL express and you'll have the amp within a week or so from paying.

I would not go with the home theater version with temperature controlled fans. Go with the ones that run all the time and do a fan mod instead if you need to lower the noise.

As far as I know Sanway does not offer Enhanced versions of the FP clones. Some months back I contemplated an enhanced amp from another supplier, but I did not grow confident with their communication, response rate and one company's inflated shipping rates, so I chose to stick with what I know which is Sanway (own two FP14k's and will eventually get a FP10kQ). The suppliers in question were HYAudio and Merrysound. If I absolutely wanted an Enhanced version, I'd place my bet on HYAudio.
thanx exactly what i needed
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Old 09-12-2015, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
I think I remember someone having an issue with theirs and they did a reset? and fixed it? Not sure how that's done though.... I don't own a clone yet. I'm curious if the 20000q will do 1hz too?
The 20Q will do 1hz just like most amps will do 1hz. The 20q has a roll off starting around 6.5hz like the 10Q. The 14K is pretty flat all the way down. (3hz roll off) BUT what subs are you going to power?

Marty's wont matter what it rolls off at. 20Q sounds awesome but 14K would be my choice for subs. Anything smaller I would go with a different amp company.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
The 20Q will do 1hz just like most amps will do 1hz. The 20q has a roll off starting around 6.5hz like the 10Q. The 14K is pretty flat all the way down. (3hz roll off) BUT what subs are you going to power?

Marty's wont matter what it rolls off at. 20Q sounds awesome but 14K would be my choice for subs. Anything smaller I would go with a different amp company.
I'm planning on two sealed enclosures with dual opposed FTW-21's. So my options are one 20000q (4000w x 4 @ 4ohms) or TWO fp14000's since running the fp14000 at 2ohms isn't healthy for the amp. I really don't want to buy two amps if I don't have too...

EDIT
Or, I guess I could bridge the FP14000 at 14,000w x 1 @ 4ohms, buts that's stressing it just as bad as 7,000 x 2 @ 2ohms, isn't it?

Last edited by mlah384; 09-12-2015 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:23 PM
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Make the cabinet as large as you can. I had a pair of FTW's and while 5.5cuft is a great compromise I would definitely go with the largest size I can possibly fit.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Make the cabinet as large as you can. I had a pair of FTW's and while 5.5cuft is a great compromise I would definitely go with the largest size I can possibly fit.
I was planning on dual opposed in a 12cuft enclosure (6 cuft each driver). I want to have them as end tables by my couch and am wanting to hit very noticeably all the way down to 3hz. I think larger boxes will chance going too far beyond xmax? I was hoping @LTD02 or someone would jump in with their awesome knowledge with suggestions!
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:02 PM
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
I was planning on dual opposed in a 12cuft enclosure (6 cuft each driver). I want to have them as end tables by my couch and am wanting to hit very noticeably all the way down to 3hz. I think larger boxes will chance going too far beyond xmax?

do you have the ftw21 standard or the -LE edition?


how much power do you plan to put on them?

Listen. It's All Good.
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
do you have the ftw21 standard or the -LE edition?


how much power do you plan to put on them?
I plan on getting the standard FTW 21's (Mark told me a week or so ago that he's gonna do a group buy on them)

I want to max them out on power... I don't want to leave anything "left on the table" with them... No sense in wasting any potential...
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:32 PM
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@LTD02 , and I welcome any suggestions on picking a different driver if it will be better than the FTW 21... The HST-18 seemed to model damn well but the FTW 21 beats it out on winisd when I play with it. I figured no 18" would outperform the FTW-21 but I could be wrong... The 24" is too expensive and requires too large of an enclosure...
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Old 09-12-2015, 09:54 PM
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@mlah384
looks like its rated for 1200, but I recall somebody (mark? maybe n8doog) mentioning an amp around 2kw would be ok. not sure how much more than that you wan to go.
seems like something around 9-10c.f. per driver would allow the excursion to be used with 2kw power, but that is just based on the same stuff that you can see in winisd too, so no real insights there.

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Old 09-12-2015, 10:09 PM
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@mlah384
have a look at multiples of the um18 (note that xmax is up around 28mm or so).
two of them actually model quite similar to a single ftw21 and might have a little more max output with enough amp.
three of the um model quite similar to the 24".

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Old 09-12-2015, 10:52 PM
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Yah 10cuft per would be my suggestion also. I am not saying it cant sound good in 5cuft with a boat load of power, I just prefer to have an F3 that is lower and like to stick with 2x's RMS power for an amp.

BUT this is the Fp14000 thread and this would be the amp to use if using a small enclosure. L/T with the 14K and you will be happy I am sure.
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Old 09-12-2015, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Yah 10cuft per would be my suggestion also. I am not saying it cant sound good in 5cuft with a boat load of power, I just prefer to have an F3 that is lower and like to stick with 2x's RMS power for an amp.

BUT this is the Fp14000 thread and this would be the amp to use if using a small enclosure. L/T with the 14K and you will be happy I am sure.
Mind to share how did you apply Linkwitz Transform for your FTW-21 ?
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Old 09-12-2015, 11:35 PM
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I used a MiniDSP at the time. And I am building a new subwoofer and will be using my HTPC with JRiver for the DSP.
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Old 09-13-2015, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
I'm planning on two sealed enclosures with dual opposed FTW-21's. So my options are one 20000q (4000w x 4 @ 4ohms) or TWO fp14000's since running the fp14000 at 2ohms isn't healthy for the amp. I really don't want to buy two amps if I don't have too...

EDIT
Or, I guess I could bridge the FP14000 at 14,000w x 1 @ 4ohms, buts that's stressing it just as bad as 7,000 x 2 @ 2ohms, isn't it?
Its not a lot of db difference between 4 FTW-21s on an FP14000 or on two FP14000. Just connect two and two subwoofers in series and put two on each output (or bridge the amp and series-connect all 4 subwoofers).
But to be honest, if you're really wanting to not leave anything left on the table then you need an efficient enclosure. The enclosure is everything - Is a saying we repeat over and over over here. Doesn't matter if its a ten grand stereo if the enclosures weren't custom built for that precise driver with a precise frequency area in mind. And if you're wanting to go down to 3hz then its going to be massive. Efficient enclosure size is proportional to cone area and the wavelength of the frequency you want to hit, so the bigger the cone area the bigger the enclosure and the lower the frequency the bigger the enclosure. Add these two together and the enclosure is huge. And since the FTW-21s are so weak relative to the cone area, they can't have very tiny closed enclosures, so if you want to make a rear-closed horn (the smallest of the efficient horn designs for such low frequencies), then the rear closed enclosure needs to be 6 cubic foot or more on top of the many cubic foot for the horn itself.
If absolutely maximum db from 3hz onwards is the focus, I'm not sure ftw-21s is the way to go unless you have a barn of space for enclosures. The ideal efficient enclosure for a 15" driver is like 18 000 cubic feet if you want to reach down to 5hz. Every compromise in size smaller than that will lose db at 5hz and up to the point where you just have closed enclosures, which themselves don't compress the air effectively. That one 15" driver in ideal enclosure would have like 140db at 5hz in the right place in the horn opening. 9 equal 15" drivers in closed enclosures would have like 110db at 5hz. 1 meter away all placed in a corner.
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Old 10-16-2015, 12:28 PM
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How well would the FP10000Q work out for subwoofers? I currently have two dual opposed Dayton-18s enclosures, 2 ohms per cabinet being fed off a Peavey IPR2 5000. I plan to add a couple more sealed subwoofers (thinking on a pair of FTW-21s) to run with the Daytons, which would just need a solid amp for 4 ohm loads. By the specs, the FP10000Q seems to be at the rated power for both 2 and 4 ohm loads I'm wanting.
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Old 10-16-2015, 01:15 PM
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I've been using the 10k for years. It's basically a 4 channel FP14000 with half the power per channel and a 6.5hz -3db point.
It should push all 4 subs ok, you might not get all the power they NEED but you'll get a fair amount of power, better than say four 1300watt plate amps, that's for sure...

The 10k is basically like 4 bridged EP4000's in one box (more or less.)
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Old 10-16-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I've been using the 10k for years. It's basically a 4 channel FP14000 with half the power per channel and a 6.5hz -3db point.
It should push all 4 subs ok, you might not get all the power they NEED but you'll get a fair amount of power, better than say four 1300watt plate amps, that's for sure...

The 10k is basically like 4 bridged EP4000's in one box (more or less.)
Are you saying 2500 watts x 2 at 2ohms and 2100 watts x 2 at 4 ohms isn't enough?

I just wanted to be sure I get something equivalent or better than what I am using now though. I don't think I need something as powerful as a FP14000Q (mostly just don't want to over drive the subwoofers) but hey, I'm still learning
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:21 AM
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I thought something was wrong with my clone and brought it to a local repair man and he said nothing was wrong and it had tons of power! I put it back in and nothing wrong. Remember these things don't have much protection built in so surges and such from other electronics could make them go off. So mine just needed to get off the circuit that my monster AVR 2000 was on and it was fine.

Marantz 7702 Atmos
3 Inuke NU4-6000 amps for all speakers.
Speakers- 7 Behringer B215XL's, 4 212xl's for ceiling speakers.
Front subs 8 SI 18ht ported SLLT powered by Peavy IPR 7500
Rear subs 4 SI 18HT ported SLLT powered by Inuke 6000.
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I thought something was wrong with my clone and brought it to a local repair man and he said nothing was wrong and it had tons of power! I put it back in and nothing wrong. Remember these things don't have much protection built in so surges and such from other electronics could make them go off. So mine just needed to get off the circuit that my monster AVR 2000 was on and it was fine.
What protection do the clones have anyway apart from the clip limiters?



I'm still pretty interested in the FP10000Q, I read that they'll either come with a 20 or 30 amp cord? Also earlier on, I seen that someone mentioned Merrysound has an enhanced FP10000Q, though apparently Sanway's more reliable and accepts PayPal? (PayPal side of things is a clear winner for me. As well as a lot of folks saying they get good support if something goes wrong.)

I believe @Fatshaft uses his for all or most of his subwoofers? (I thought I read he did for the FTW-21s, but I am not sure now that he seems to be running those and some 18s.) I'm just trying to get a solid idea what I could expect out of this.
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Old 10-17-2015, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoodcom View Post
I'm just trying to get a solid idea what I could expect out of this.
I have posted a few videos of what the 10k and 14k amps can do.
Not scientific tests, just actual use on music and sinewaves.

10k:


14k:
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Old 10-17-2015, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I have posted a few videos of what the 10k and 14k amps can do.
Not scientific tests, just actual use on music and sinewaves.
[...]
Nice!

Is your FP10000Q the clone or legit Lab Gruppen? I see an actual Lab Gruppen badge on that one.

Have you ever pushed all four channels into subwoofers to see how it'd perform?
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoodcom View Post
I believe @Fatshaft uses his for all or most of his subwoofers? (I thought I read he did for the FTW-21s, but I am not sure now that he seems to be running those and some 18s.) I'm just trying to get a solid idea what I could expect out of this.
Thanks for bringing me in this ride...
My FP10000Q is connected this way:
First of all I use it bridged so I now have only 2 channels.
Channel "A" is connected to 2x FTW21's @ 8ohms so 4200Watts or 2100W per sub.
Channel "B" is connected to 4x SI18's @ 4ohms so 5000Watts or 1250W per sub.

I drive the crap out of my subs and my clone is always running HARD.
Aside from having a diode fail (I've since fixed it) I'm having no issues despite the pounding I give it!

FYI, my other 2x FTW21's are being driven of 1 channel of a EP4000 (Cause channel 2 blewup when I had a power failure!)
connected @ 2ohm (subs are connected in parallel)

My clone works great and I'm not really nice with it...she's a workhorse and I make sure she works HARD!

I can't wait for my next upgrade
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My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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Old 10-17-2015, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post
Thanks for bringing me in this ride...
My FP10000Q is connected this way:
First of all I use it bridged so I now have only 2 channels.
Channel "A" is connected to 2x FTW21's @ 8ohms so 4200Watts or 2100W per sub.
Channel "B" is connected to 4x SI18's @ 4ohms so 5000Watts or 1250W per sub.

I drive the crap out of my subs and my clone is always running HARD.
Aside from having a diode fail (I've since fixed it) I'm having no issues despite the pounding I give it!

FYI, my other 2x FTW21's are being driven of 1 channel of a EP4000 (Cause channel 2 blewup when I had a power failure!)
connected @ 2ohm (subs are connected in parallel)

My clone works great and I'm not really nice with it...she's a workhorse and I make sure she works HARD!

I can't wait for my next upgrade
Sorry about that? I was mostly wanting to know how you got things running at this point was all.

Well, that brings me some confidence too! Thank you!

Also, is yours with the 20 or 30 amp plug?


Yeah I read up on what you're wanting for your next upgrade! I actually am looking forward to see it in progress too!
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Old 10-17-2015, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoodcom View Post
Also, is yours with the 20 or 30 amp plug?
20 amp plug
I've never tripped my breaker FWIW

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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Old 10-17-2015, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoodcom View Post
Is your FP10000Q the clone or legit Lab Gruppen? I see an actual Lab Gruppen badge on that one.
Clone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodcom View Post
Have you ever pushed all four channels into subwoofers to see how it'd perform?
Yes, that was one of the vids. The concentrated u-shaped quad LMS-18's doing 10hz vid.

If it makes you feel any better, I've owned 10 different types of amps and as far as power and cooling, the clone FP14k is the best I've used thus far. Regardless of price (but especially for the price.)
That includes a real-deal Crown iTech, and a 3000watt Velodyne servo plate amp etc etc etc.

I've never used a K20, CC5500, or Speakerpower 12k. But I'm reasonably confident that the clone is capable of hanging with some of the bests amps available. (If you can dodge the china-roulette bullet...)

There have been at least 3 people that have said they can't tell a difference between the clone and the Gruppen in the field (at least above 2-ohms.)

If you need more than a clone, then you are probably best off looking for a Crown MT-10001. It does 10kW RMS @ dual 1-ohm, and can be daisy-chained for 80kW RMS @ 1-ohm or any ohm for that matter... on a 800amp breaker. It weighs 130lbs per and is 50% efficient per, and probably costs $15000 per, or something ridiculous like that!!! NOW THAT IS AN AMP! Old-school...

Last edited by BassThatHz; 10-17-2015 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 10-17-2015, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Clone.


Yes, that was one of the vids. The concentrated u-shaped quad LMS-18's doing 10hz vid.
Whoa, and those LMS-18s aren't that easy to drive are they? I recall a video of someone's Peavey IPR2 7500 end up shutting down just with one LMS Ultra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
If it makes you feel any better, I've owned 10 different types of amps and as far as power and cooling, the clone FP14k is the best I've used thus far. Regardless of price (but especially for the price.)
That includes a real-deal Crown iTech, and a 3000watt Velodyne servo plate amp etc etc etc.

I've never used a K20, CC5500, or Speakerpower 12k. But I'm reasonably confident that the clone is the capable of hanging with some of the bests amps available. (If you can dodge the china-roulette bullet...)
Awesome!

K20? Isn't that the Powersoft amp that runs off three phase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
There have been at least 3 people that have said they can't tell a difference between the clone and the Gruppen in the field (at least above 2-ohms.)

If you need more than a clone, then you are probably best off looking for a Crown MT-10001. It does 10kW RMS @ dual 1-ohm, and can be daisy-chained for 80kW RMS @ 1-ohm or any ohm for that matter... on a 800amp breaker. It weighs 130lbs per and is 50% efficient per, and probably costs $15000 per, or something ridiculous like that!!! NOW THAT IS AN AMP! Old-school...
How well do the clones handle 2-ohm loads?


And holy crap, dual 1-ohm alone is awesome, but you can daisy-chain the things?
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Lab Gruppen Fp 14000 , Sanway Fp 10000q
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