Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 184 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5491 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 12:36 PM
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I've had 6 x FP14's and had issues with 2 of them. Both would powercycle at random times. I needed a new power board for one which sanway refused to pay for, even though it was 3 months old. Can't say I was too happy about that one, the other was 2 bad resistors, not a big deal. 4 have been going strong for 4-5 years now I guess. The latest 2 are about 3 years old.
I'm happy enough with them.

Also, Everyone can clearly see they are clones that bosso sells..... Sitting here trying to deny it, is not doing anything good for your business.
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post #5492 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 12:47 PM
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I had 2 clones for about 2 years. I ran them HARD (clipping and tripping 20A breakers) but never had a single issue.
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post #5493 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 02:29 PM
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So even better, I have a dedicated 30 amp breaker in my panel labeled for my living room. It's split between two single gang outlets a few feet apart behind my gear. The 20a labeled for the same room in the panel are for the other outlets in the room not near my gear. But now I know I at least have the 30a to power everything rather than the 20a.

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post #5494 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 02:35 PM
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As far as the amps, I'm shocked there isn't people out there hot rodding/modding these things. I see mods/upgrades for the Oppo bluray players, my Musical Fidelity Tri Vista Tube DAC, ....
I imagine there are plenty of parts that could be upgraded for better performance and reliability.

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post #5495 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 04:11 PM
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Question. What should my dip switches be set at? As with the push button on the left?



This will also be the 1st time firing up the balanced 2x4. Guess I need to figure out what plug-in I need to buy for it. Will run 4 subs with 2 sub inputs from the AVR.

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post #5496 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
As far as the amps, I'm shocked there isn't people out there hot rodding/modding these things. I see mods/upgrades for the Oppo bluray players, my Musical Fidelity Tri Vista Tube DAC, ....
I imagine there are plenty of parts that could be upgraded for better performance and reliability.

There is Bosso...

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post #5497 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
As far as the amps, I'm shocked there isn't people out there hot rodding/modding these things. I see mods/upgrades for the Oppo bluray players, my Musical Fidelity Tri Vista Tube DAC, ....
I imagine there are plenty of parts that could be upgraded for better performance and reliability.
It doesn't work like that... You can't just open the amp and decide to start replacing components unless you really understand why those components were chosen in the first place. That's why I'm so skeptical of the LG clones. Lets say some MOSFET in the circuit was chosen precisely because it has certainly electrical characteristics, a particular RdsON and current limit. You look at it and say I can replace that FET with this "better" one with a lower RdsON and a higher current limit and gain efficiency. Well, what if the circuit relies on the RdsON for some other function, like to act as a current limiter? You've just changed the amp in such a way that it now no longer has that current limiter. Maybe you can overload the traces on the PCB now, or some of the internal wiring. Maybe you pick a FET with less gate charge which will increase switching speed. What if the amp relied on the gate charge to tune part of the circuit and you FET chose causes ringing because the FET now switches too fast?

There are so many ways to screw up a circuit by swapping parts for similar or "better" ones. I certainly wouldn't blindly attempt it.
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post #5498 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
So even better, I have a dedicated 30 amp breaker in my panel labeled for my living room. It's split between two single gang outlets a few feet apart behind my gear. The 20a labeled for the same room in the panel are for the other outlets in the room not near my gear. But now I know I at least have the 30a to power everything rather than the 20a.
Yeah, but it's not the breaker you have to worry about, it's the wire. He probably only ran two 15A rated wires for a combined 30A, so while the breaker may support 30A total, the wires can only do 15A.
Be careful, you could burn your house down pulling 24-32A RMS through a wire rated only for 15A.
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post #5499 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 04:58 PM
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Yup, 10 gauge for 30A lines. If you are running 12 you would probably be ok but if it's 14, you are asking for a house fire.

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post #5500 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 05:17 PM
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It's 10 gauge. Orange jacketing.


And I wasn't talking about "me" trying to mod these amps. lol

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post #5501 of 5780 Old 05-08-2016, 11:16 PM
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Well, one thing for sure.... need to figure out a solution for the fan noise. No way I can use this thing in the room I'm in now. Hopefully in the new house, when I find it, I will have a closet to use for my gear so I can keep it out of the A/V room. It's way too loud. The Inuke with fan mod wasn't too bad. But this thing!!!!!

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post #5502 of 5780 Old 05-09-2016, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
Well, one thing for sure.... need to figure out a solution for the fan noise. No way I can use this thing in the room I'm in now. Hopefully in the new house, when I find it, I will have a closet to use for my gear so I can keep it out of the A/V room. It's way too loud. The Inuke with fan mod wasn't too bad. But this thing!!!!!
Do Nyt's fan mod and it should be quiet. For your other question above, start out with 23dB gain and 83V limit. Adjust the switches with the amp off. You will need to adjust the gain setting depending on your AVR + 2x4 voltage going into the amp, which could take some iterations. Max voltage depends on your drivers and enclosures.

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post #5503 of 5780 Old 05-09-2016, 07:12 AM
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Very recent correspondence from JT with regard to DSP amp functionality, how total pricing works, and Sanway website:


"Our DSP-10KQ for reference, it is us$850.00 per unit.

As we are rebuilding our website of www.china-sanway.com recently, will be finish on Wednesday this week. Please download the DSP solftware of DSP-10KQ from http://en.sanway.tw.ldyjz.com/software-dc235.html .

If you want to purchase one DSP-10KQ to check quality at first, the total amount is as following:
1>. one DSP-10KQ, Price: us$850.00
2>. the best shipping cost by DHL shipped to USA is us$140.00
3>. 4% PayPal commission for this order is us$990x4%=us$39.60
The total amount for this order is us$1029.60

For your first sample order, it is better to pay by PAYPAL, but you should pay extra 4% commission, OK? Our PAYPAL account is sales@china-sanway.com , please tell me your delivery address; telephone number and consignee name after paid, we have ready DSP-10KQ in stock, i will send them out upon receipt of payment without delay.

Of course, if you don't like to pay by PAYPAL, we also can accept payment by bank transfer or Western Union.

Another thing, i will send you this DSP-10KQ with 110V version and American Power Plug, which can operate from 65V to 135V voltage range, OK?



Does the DSP functionality extend below 20hz?
Johnson: yes.

Linkwitz Transform?
Johnson: no

Will the DSP software take a file produced by a real-time frequency response analyzer?
Johnson: no
"

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post #5504 of 5780 Old 05-09-2016, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I've had 6 x FP14's and had issues with 2 of them. Both would powercycle at random times. I needed a new power board for one which sanway refused to pay for, even though it was 3 months old. Can't say I was too happy about that one, the other was 2 bad resistors, not a big deal. 4 have been going strong for 4-5 years now I guess. The latest 2 are about 3 years old.
I'm happy enough with them.

Also, Everyone can clearly see they are clones that bosso sells..... Sitting here trying to deny it, is not doing anything good for your business.
@diy speaker guy hit the nail on the head. Their own information says they started with a clone of "a" LG platform and then improved it (capacitance, power supply, cooling, etc.).


I'm fairly certain Dave said there's is a clone of the K series rather than the FP series, and that's what they're trying to "trap" notnyt with.


I really like what they've done with the amp, and I don't see anyone denying it'll perform, but to say it's not a copy of any LG platform is just ridiculous.
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post #5505 of 5780 Old 05-09-2016, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by blah450 View Post
Very recent correspondence from JT with regard to DSP amp functionality, how total pricing works, and Sanway website:


"Our DSP-10KQ for reference, it is us$850.00 per unit.

As we are rebuilding our website of www.china-sanway.com recently, will be finish on Wednesday this week. Please download the DSP solftware of DSP-10KQ from http://en.sanway.tw.ldyjz.com/software-dc235.html .
Huh, this certainly explains why their site wasn't working then.


I'm curious to how their DSP models compare to other products like the iNuke DSPs.
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post #5506 of 5780 Old 05-09-2016, 08:18 AM
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Hoodcom...

http://a0.leadongcdn.com/attachment/...p=GvUApKfKKUAU

This should be the address of the Sanway DSP amp manual pdf.
Maybe some fellas here can arrive at some conclusions looking at it.
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post #5507 of 5780 Old 05-09-2016, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
@diy speaker guy hit the nail on the head. Their own information says they started with a clone of "a" LG platform and then improved it (capacitance, power supply, cooling, etc.).


I'm fairly certain Dave said there's is a clone of the K series rather than the FP series, and that's what they're trying to "trap" notnyt with.
This could be possible, it's hard to tell what twisted logic and unethical semantics are being used to deny his products are clones. This is very much like buying a counterfeit article of clothing, having the seller upgrade the zipper and then reselling it as a unique item (not counterfeit) because it's not a part for part exact clone. I have no problem at all with clones but I have a big problem with people reselling them and adamantly insisting they are not clones.


Quote:
I really like what they've done with the amp, and I don't see anyone denying it'll perform, but to say it's not a copy of any LG platform is just ridiculous.
The stated mods are very likely a good step forward over the original clone but what is the actual value? A diy'er could perform these same mods for very little money, maybe between $20 and $100 (estimated US pricing, NOT China factory pricing). If these mods prevent premature failure (and even if they just slightly increase performance) they are certainly worth something. But twice the cost of the clone as purchased directly from the reseller? I don't think so. A warranty is also worth something, but even the warranty might be bad value when the terms and conditions and shipping cost funding responsibility favor the seller, as I'm guessing they do in Bosso's case.

I'd like to see how Bosso would deal with a warranty claim case like nwf477's, in which the user admitted on an open forum that he hooked the amp up wrong, took it apart several times (most of these disassemblies would presumably not be necessary if he had a warranty, but he did need to open it to replace the fans, and by the way is a fan mod covered by a Bossobass warranty?), almost certainly blew something up when he had it open, and immediately started calling the product junk and the reseller unethical on open forums. Would Bosso cover that warranty claim if nwf477 was his customer? If so who would pay for shipping? It's easy to see how a warranty can be pretty useless, especially to someone like nwf477 that openly admits that he hooked it up wrong, which in most cases invalidates the warranty, and that's even before he started messing around all up in it's guts and blowing stuff up.

If Bosso's product were an import, mod and quality control business venture for a couple hundred dollars extra price that would be great. But lying about the origin and nature of the product is unconscionable. Doing so on an open forum where everyone knows the truth is not a very good business strategy. Not to mention that charging double the original price for a few simple mods is a terrible value.
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post #5508 of 5780 Old 05-10-2016, 04:49 PM
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Not to mention that charging double the original price for a few simple mods is a terrible value.
If it gave it a real warranty, that is worth the increase in price. What is shady is blowing people up for calling it what it is; a clone. My experience was that the Chinese manufacturer back stepped covering my amp which was never opened or modded and telling me I broke it by setting the rear gain switches too high (44) which damaged the VPL. It was set up with a single 15" sub and not pushed hard. The light came up at low volumes. You have no recourse. Sanway isn't offering warranty repairs either if the best they can do is ship some parts with directions on how to repair it. I inherited these two amps and didn't buy them myself. At $849 each from audio savings, I'd buy 4 Crest CC5500's with a real 5 year warranty and be done with China and the unethical practices that make Chinese businesses infamous for what they are.

You would think the audio world would learn a thing or two from Bryston. A 20 year warranty didn't put them out of business. I sent a 16 year old pair of 7B's to them and they were repaired no questions asked.

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post #5509 of 5780 Old 05-10-2016, 07:31 PM
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Any opinions on what the value is of a broken one of these? Seller says its power cycling and the local shop he took it to could do nothing. Says that sanway quoted $250 plus shipping for a new board. I'm interested, but only at the right price which is....?
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post #5510 of 5780 Old 05-10-2016, 08:44 PM
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Any opinions on what the value is of a broken one of these? Seller says its power cycling and the local shop he took it to could do nothing. Says that sanway quoted $250 plus shipping for a new board. I'm interested, but only at the right price which is....?
7-800 less cost to repair (assuming it'll work after the repair).

I had to replace a channel board in mine. Sanway helped me diagnose the problem and shipped me the parts I needed. Amp worked great afterward. Great support from Johnson (I paid for the parts). Better than any support I've ever received from a US company for a product that wasn't under warranty.
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post #5511 of 5780 Old 05-10-2016, 09:45 PM
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Is the fan mod for these amps buried in this thread or is it a separate thread? And does it only apply to the Fp14? I have the Fp10000q. with extremely loud fans!

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post #5512 of 5780 Old 05-11-2016, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
Is the fan mod for these amps buried in this thread or is it a separate thread? And does it only apply to the Fp14? I have the Fp10000q. with extremely loud fans!

It's all in the first post, and some different ideas are scattered throughout.
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post #5513 of 5780 Old 05-11-2016, 07:06 PM
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It's all in the first post, and some different ideas are scattered throughout.
I read it but it doesn't mention what fans to go with other than the size. Plus there is a mention of a diode and 5w wire?
Was hoping there was a bit more info.

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post #5514 of 5780 Old 05-11-2016, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
Do Nyt's fan mod and it should be quiet. For your other question above, start out with 23dB gain and 83V limit. Adjust the switches with the amp off. You will need to adjust the gain setting depending on your AVR + 2x4 voltage going into the amp, which could take some iterations. Max voltage depends on your drivers and enclosures.
This look right? What about the mode switched? Soft/Hard?
And the chi/ch3 push button. Parallel/stereo?
Can't find the manual around here so asking here. Will eventually run 4 subs with all 4 channels.



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post #5515 of 5780 Old 05-12-2016, 05:03 AM
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I read it but it doesn't mention what fans to go with other than the size. Plus there is a mention of a diode and 5w wire?
Was hoping there was a bit more info.
So, 300-400ohm resistor (using wire wound 5w) and 60mm fan and then an 80mm fan. It takes two of each of those per amp. Pics here, writeup here. <--- This sentence in the first post has hyperlinks to the parts to buy, as well as the writeup on how to do it. 5w wire is referring to the 5watt wire wound resistor that goes inline with the smaller fans. I think the diode was offered up as an alternative to the resistor.

I believe the parallel stereo switch is for the inputs, stereo would allow four independent channel inputs and parallel would mirror channel 1 on channel 3 and 2 on channel four. Basically like running an internal y connector.
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post #5516 of 5780 Old 05-12-2016, 10:27 AM
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?Anywhere from 300-400ohm should do. I used 5 watt wire wound to be on the safe side.?


That had me confused. Thought he was talking about 2 different things. They are 5w wire wound resistors.
What isn't mentioned, or I missed it, is where and how these are wired in. Are they used on all fans? On the hot wire of each fan? Do you solder the resistor to the board and then the fan wire to the other end of the resistor?


And what fans should I be using? I know with the Inuke amps, there are specific models guys are using. I did a fan mod for a friend and we used a Noctua (forget model#).


There is also a 5th fan in these newer amps. Think it is smaller. Should I find out the size of it and replace it as well??

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post #5517 of 5780 Old 05-22-2016, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
?Anywhere from 300-400ohm should do. I used 5 watt wire wound to be on the safe side.?


That had me confused. Thought he was talking about 2 different things. They are 5w wire wound resistors.
What isn't mentioned, or I missed it, is where and how these are wired in. Are they used on all fans? On the hot wire of each fan? Do you solder the resistor to the board and then the fan wire to the other end of the resistor?


And what fans should I be using? I know with the Inuke amps, there are specific models guys are using. I did a fan mod for a friend and we used a Noctua (forget model#).


There is also a 5th fan in these newer amps. Think it is smaller. Should I find out the size of it and replace it as well??
@Iron Maiden . 5th fan? Can you upload a picture? I haven't been following the latest clone news, but my fp10k and the jillions of others I've seen have all had 4 fans.

You would wire the resistor in series with a fan if you want the drop the input voltage (this will make it run slower and quieter). You can see the volts/amps specs on the front of the fan to calculate the needed ohm rating of a resistor to drop the voltage by a given amount. That's an option if you can't find a stock fan with the flow/noise ratings you're looking for, but it's easier if you just find one with decent specs at the default voltage.

Also, as far as replacing the fans, it's very similar to doing an inuke, except that it's a little harder to disassemble (as in, I had bloodier knuckles). I believe I used noctuas in my inukes, which are awesome fans, but clones and many other amps don't use the 12 V fans that are common in PCs. However, it's not a black art. The sizes and voltages are almost always standard. The earlier clones had two 80mm fans and two 60mm ones (and I think all were 24 VDC), but I think later ones may be all 80mms. A quick glance with the lid off and a ruler will tell you, and peeking at the front labels on the fans will show their voltage, current draw, and make/part #. A place like digikey.com sells tons of models and will let you filter by the dimensions and voltage you need and let you sort by flow rate or noise. The links from years ago in the top of the thread are long dead or out-dated, and I would definitely search to see what is the current state-of-the-art (be sure to check the fan "depth" as well as width to make sure it will fit in the space). You can probably find the stock fans you pull out for sale there as well (I found mine), and you'll see that they are very high flow and very loud.

Here's a list of current 24 VDC fans at digikey:
http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...c-fans/1179730
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post #5518 of 5780 Old 05-23-2016, 09:11 AM
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Thanks for the help. I will look at the link when I get home.
So I should look for 24 vdc fans so no resister would be needed?


Far right is the extra fan.



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post #5519 of 5780 Old 05-23-2016, 10:20 PM
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post #5520 of 5780 Old 05-24-2016, 05:33 AM
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I read it but it doesn't mention what fans to go with other than the size. Plus there is a mention of a diode and 5w wire?
Was hoping there was a bit more info.
From what I can see, the first post has links to the exact fans that Notnyt used after extensive testing... first one I clicked on took me right to the exact product....literally just have to click on "quantity" and place the order. I don't know how it can be made any easier to figure out what fans to use that someone went through considerable time, effort, expense, and testing to find the ideal fans. I don't own a clone or intend to buy one, but I have read up on them a bit just out of curiosity. Doesn't seem like this info is hidden. Now if you are referring to exact info regarding an amp other than the FP14k, that's another story.
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