Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers - Page 193 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5761 of 5855 Old 03-15-2017, 11:18 AM
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awesome so power shouldn't be a problem pushing these hst18's to the limits.

if one were planing 2 of these cabs. 2 x 2 hst18 18ft3 15hz wired series/parallel so each set is 2ohm 1 on each channel bursting 7kw each would be solid.
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post #5762 of 5855 Old 03-15-2017, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madmaxz28 View Post
awesome so power shouldn't be a problem pushing these hst18's to the limits.

if one were planing 2 of these cabs. 2 x 2 hst18 18ft3 15hz wired series/parallel so each set is 2ohm 1 on each channel bursting 7kw each would be solid.
As long as you get one of the newer amps that are two ohm stable. That said, an FP14000 should be able to drive a pair of them nicely. I'd consider speakerpower though, if the budget permits.
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post #5763 of 5855 Old 03-15-2017, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 1redz06 View Post
No way the blew from over driving the amp? Wiring looks Great on my end.
What were you powering with it, what ohm, and how loud and for how long and what frequency?
They are pretty beefy but not indestructible.
Do you have the 2-ohm version or the 4-ohm version?

Sometimes people get lemons from china. Sanway can ship a new PS or amp module if you need it.
Might be more economical to just buy another one and then power 3 subs.

Just don't electrocute yourself with 14kW playing around inside the amp. The boards can remain fully charged even with the power unplugged.
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post #5764 of 5855 Old 03-15-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
What were you powering with it, what ohm, and how loud and for how long and what frequency?
They are pretty beefy but not indestructible.
Do you have the 2-ohm version or the 4-ohm version?

Sometimes people get lemons from china. Sanway can ship a new PS or amp module if you need it.
Might be more economical to just buy another one and then power 3 subs.

Just don't electrocute yourself with 14kW playing around inside the amp. The boards can remain fully charged even with the power unplugged.
Pair of hst 18s 4 ohm, listening at true reference volume, subs 12db hot (I have a boost at 30hz and below upto 9db) and run a little extra (3db) on the pre amps end hence the 12db.

Watching mad Max, I normally push the system never to its limit or so I thought.



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post #5765 of 5855 Old 03-15-2017, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madmaxz28 View Post
awesome so power shouldn't be a problem pushing these hst18's to the limits.

if one were planing 2 of these cabs. 2 x 2 hst18 18ft3 15hz wired series/parallel so each set is 2ohm 1 on each channel bursting 7kw each would be solid.
Not only in that large of an enclosure, but just in general, running an amplifier capable of delivering 7,000 watts to a sub rated for 2,000 watts is not a good idea. The HST's are very stout drivers but they are not indestructable. I urge you to use extreme caution with that much power capable.
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post #5766 of 5855 Old 03-15-2017, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Not only in that large of an enclosure, but just in general, running an amplifier capable of delivering 7,000 watts to a sub rated for 2,000 watts is not a good idea. The HST's are very stout drivers but they are not indestructable. I urge you to use extreme caution with that much power capable.
They'll burst that high, but they can only sustain about 4kw total.
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post #5767 of 5855 Old 03-15-2017, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
They'll burst that high, but they can only sustain about 4kw total.
Good to know. Still double rated power on drivers in a very big enclosure (whether 18 ft^3 is for one or for two). I strongly recommend NOT putting 4K on a 2K rated driver.
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post #5768 of 5855 Old 03-15-2017, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Good to know. Still double rated power on drivers in a very big enclosure (whether 18 ft^3 is for one or for two). I strongly recommend NOT putting 4K on a 2K rated driver.
4k total, not per chan. So if he had two off of it, each driver can see up to 2kw sustained or 4kw peak as they'd present a 4 ohm load.
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post #5769 of 5855 Old 03-19-2017, 07:05 AM
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anyone try the fp20000q yet?
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post #5770 of 5855 Old 03-20-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
What were you powering with it, what ohm, and how loud and for how long and what frequency?
They are pretty beefy but not indestructible.
Do you have the 2-ohm version or the 4-ohm version?

Sometimes people get lemons from china. Sanway can ship a new PS or amp module if you need it.
Might be more economical to just buy another one and then power 3 subs.

Just don't electrocute yourself with 14kW playing around inside the amp. The boards can remain fully charged even with the power unplugged.
I replaced the 2 fuses that blew on one channel.

Amp powers up now and the mute light and temp light are no longer illuminated. Now I have another problem, the VPL light is illuminated on the channel that blew the fuses. Any idea what to do next?

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post #5771 of 5855 Old 03-21-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 1redz06 View Post
I replaced the 2 fuses that blew on one channel.

Amp powers up now and the mute light and temp light are no longer illuminated. Now I have another problem, the VPL light is illuminated on the channel that blew the fuses. Any idea what to do next?

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There are two sets of fuses. On the input side and on the output side. On the affected channel check both input and output fuses and replace. Again most of the times the fuses blow for a reason so I would check out why that is first..
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post #5772 of 5855 Old 03-21-2017, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason kiDD View Post
There are two sets of fuses. On the input side and on the output side. On the affected channel check both input and output fuses and replace. Again most of the times the fuses blow for a reason so I would check out why that is first..
Thank you, I'll check the other set of fuses. I don't recall seeing any fuses on the same board, where are they located!

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post #5773 of 5855 Old 03-21-2017, 08:01 AM
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Fuses are located on the top side of the amp underneath the board above. Make sure amp is unplugged as has had some time to discharge caps before you do any work inside. Also as a general rule stay awake from any caps period unless you know what your doing..
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post #5774 of 5855 Old 03-21-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason kiDD View Post


Fuses are located on the top side of the amp underneath the board above. Make sure amp is unplugged as has had some time to discharge caps before you do any work inside. Also as a general rule stay awake from any caps period unless you know what your doing..
Those were the fuses I replaced, on the other side of the amplifier board you have pictured. There were 2 and they were both blown. When I looked around the rest of the amp everything looked OK. Granted maybe I missed more hidden fuses.

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post #5775 of 5855 Old 03-31-2017, 10:14 PM
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Wow, 2A RMS at idle? Hmm, now I'm curious to what my entire system will do on idle.


By the way, with either the FP10000Q or FP14000Q, would it be okay to allow them a full 30A circuit? I've seen some folks end up doing just 20A for "safety" concerns, basically.
LOL, its not a very good argument for SMPS having superiority over efficiency is it.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.
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post #5776 of 5855 Old 03-31-2017, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL, its not a very good argument for SMPS having superiority over efficiency is it.
Really? The SP1-4000 amps are smps and around 93% efficient, your amps are nowhere even close to that. Even the new FP4000s are around 80% efficient, still worlds beyond what you're using.
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post #5777 of 5855 Old 03-31-2017, 10:43 PM
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Really? The SP1-4000 amps are smps and around 93% efficient, your amps are nowhere even close to that. Even the new FP4000s are around 80% efficient, still worlds beyond what you're using.
lol. 2 amps at idle , efficient ? Best they be running all the time at full power lol

Speaker power is class D. Class D is more efficient than Class H, but unless i worry about my electric bill it is a non issue.

Toroidal vs Smps power supply about the same efficiency.

Fyi.

Also it is amazing a company like speaker power admits to all I have been saying about Smps amps in general in there very front page. Failures will continue however in the 5 to 7 year range until the finally install top quality capacitors.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.
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post #5778 of 5855 Old 04-21-2017, 02:32 AM
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good morinig too all... I am the happy owner 02/2015 fp14000 from sanway...now i pilot a couple of 21" 1500w aes 8 ohm subs par side (3000w 4 ohms)...I wonder if it is still possible to add onothe one sub by side and go down to 2.8ohm ... maybe updating a bit the amplifier
thank you very much
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post #5779 of 5855 Old 04-21-2017, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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You could run it at 2.8, but you might want to consider adding another amp if those 21s can handle that much power.
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post #5780 of 5855 Old 04-21-2017, 04:07 AM
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I .. i would still take 4 sub..ok i take another amplifier, it was just a temporary solution
Then I ask because the amplifier is a bit old now ,(even it has the blue boardcard) and it does not hold 2.8ohm
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post #5781 of 5855 Old 04-23-2017, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paskal9 View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by winny32 

Has anyone try CAD amplifiers, which looks like LG fp14000 and fp10000q, but from DENMARK, EU ???

http://www.cadaudio.dk/pmaamps.htm





second pic look like sanway

the 2nd pic watermark even says china-sanway.com. the same pic is posted in their main page. bet they import the amp from sanway, increase the pricing to cover for warranty purpose and sell it as their own.
They dont sell them as there own, but they give a proper warranty - thats why they cost more then if you self import them from china.
They do say it is a china (sanway) clone.

no one ever died from overkill
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post #5782 of 5855 Old 04-23-2017, 09:13 PM
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lol. 2 amps at idle , efficient ?
Isn't amp efficiency based on full power vs power draw (Output Power/Input Power)? Idle draw isn't part of the equation.
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post #5783 of 5855 Old 04-23-2017, 10:29 PM
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Isn't amp efficiency based on full power vs power draw (Output Power/Input Power)? Idle draw isn't part of the equation.
Yes and in this case............................. if we included it...................................The numbers would be worse.................... Thanks for adding your point.

All measurements in audio tend to measure best case scene. Just like most measure db one meter away
from the speaker driver, but you double that distance and you lose 6db, and even more at the listening position......

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.
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post #5784 of 5855 Old 04-24-2017, 09:36 PM
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lol. 2 amps at idle , efficient ? Best they be running all the time at full power lol



Speaker power is class D. Class D is more efficient than Class H, but unless i worry about my electric bill it is a non issue.



Toroidal vs Smps power supply about the same efficiency.



Fyi.



Also it is amazing a company like speaker power admits to all I have been saying about Smps amps in general in there very front page. Failures will continue however in the 5 to 7 year range until the finally install top quality capacitors.


Efficiency doesn't matter because of electric bills. It matters because our walls deliver a finite amount of energy. The more of that converted to power for our subs the better. The rest is wasted as heat and does no work for us.

Efficiency of a smps is only the same as an unregulated linear supply. If any regulation is needed or used or ripple reduced through inductance or resistance then the smps is superior. Most amps need regulation for the voltage stage and with smps you can get away will less regulation in the circuit on the amp for better efficiency. If you have class d amps you also often need regulated supply and again better to do some of the regulation in the power supply itself and just some local on the amp. The biggest negative with smps is they don't have much headroom. I have found that a pair of 300 watt amplifier modules powered by 1200 watt rms smps was not able to hit specified power. Amps were class AB and about 70% efficient.


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post #5785 of 5855 Old 04-24-2017, 10:12 PM
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Class D is efficient because it converts AC into AC in as few steps as possible.
and only at the power level needed to drive the load, and only for as long as necessary. Adjusting 100,000 times per second. (aka tracking.)

Class H, AB and A are inefficient because it converts AC into DC and DC into AC.
Most of the losses being in the bridge rectifier and the output current in the base and emitters; and not so much the toroidal transformer.
Classic AB and A offer no tracking. H offers minimal tracking.

Class A being about 0% efficient at idle and 0-40% efficient under load.
Classic Class AB being about 0-50% efficient at idle and 0-50% efficient under load.
Class H being upwards of 75-85% efficient at idle and 25-49% efficient under load.
Class D being upwards of 50-99% at all times, with the good ones being entirely 85 or better.

The Gruppen, entry-level Crown's, and Gen3 Emotiva's are a hybrid.
Class D power supply (AC to DC) with a Class A/B output (DC to AC).

iNuke, Hypex, SpeakerPower and PowerSoft is a single stage Class D, or something close to it.

I believe iTechs have an interleaved Class D power supply (AC to DC), and an interleaved Class D output (DC to AC).
[an overly convoluted method, maybe one day Crown will come to their senses.]
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post #5786 of 5855 Old 04-25-2017, 06:09 PM
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I have never had a problem with home use, being short in output at the wall outlet. Obviously the more you go to having a pro like system in the home, the more outlets you will need to add to your system. The other point being most power over 1000 watts per amplifier/ driver, even in a completely heat less 100 percent efficient design, if it existed, would be wasted in the fact the the addition of more power is simply unable to provide any more real output............ Ie 10 times the power just to double the sound. Requiring 10 times the effort just to double the result at that point is inefficiency to its max no matter what amplifier you are using.

The smps argument for efficiency along with many other arguments, go to support the manufacturers goal, of converting all customers to the CASH COW products, now made, in which they intentionally incorporate self redundancy to have more sales in the future.

Not many people have had to replace a crest ca 18

That being said.... the real benefits of light weight make huge logistical savings, in less resource consuming mobile setups. This is the only real reward from SMPS, but unless you move every week, its not likely this benefit will accrue any savings to home users.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.

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post #5787 of 5855 Old 04-25-2017, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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ffs, nobody cares about your amps, this isn't the thread for it. The latest FP14000 I tested was around 80% efficient. The SP2-8000 I tested was around 93% efficient. The fans don't even need to run on those amps. You won't even be anywhere close to that with a CA18 or its clones.

Whether you're adding a second amp, or using a more powerful amp, it will still require doubling of output power to add 3db. Using less efficient amps means you're essentially doubling the amount of amps you need to reach the same power levels. Furthermore, these amps produce more burst and sustained power than the CA18. More burst potential means they can handle higher crest factors without clipping or compressing.

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post #5788 of 5855 Old 04-25-2017, 06:32 PM
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ffs, nobody cares about your amps, this isn't the thread for it. The latest FP14000 I tested was around 80% efficient. The SP2-8000 I tested was around 93% efficient. The fans don't even need to run on those amps. You won't even be anywhere close to that with a CA18 or its clones.

Whether you're adding a second amp, or using a more powerful amp, it will still require doubling of output power to add 3db. Using less efficient amps means you're essentially doubling the amount of amps you need to reach the same power levels. Furthermore, these amps produce more burst and sustained power than the CA18. More burst potential means they can handle higher crest factors without clipping or compressing.
you will need a lot more than a doubling of output to get your 3db, doooo doooo. you will not even get one db of real output with a doubling of power, over the 1000 watt wall. Real output is referenced in loudness, not watts, or spl measurements that the ear cant hear. Even 30hz is 20 db down to the ear from an spl measurement.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.
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post #5789 of 5855 Old 04-25-2017, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post
you will need a lot more than a doubling of output to get your 3db, doooo doooo. you will not even get one db of real output with a doubling of power, over the 1000 watt wall. Real output is referenced in loudness, not watts, or spl measurements that the ear cant hear.
You do not have a clue what you're talking about.

You measure amplifier power in watts. Doubling power output results in 3dbspl of additional output from your speakers.
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post #5790 of 5855 Old 04-26-2017, 04:04 PM
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Doubling power output results in 3dbspl of additional output from your speakers.
At the limits it sure doesn't though. BL drops, thermal compression kicks in, etc.
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