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post #5911 of 5933 Old 07-16-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
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Don't be scared...
https://youtu.be/JaylCVsUrFI
Yeah, lol. I'm going to pop it out of the rack today and take it to the same joint.
I'll see what they say is the problem. Johnson hasn't replied via email or gchat so will just take it in blind.
They fixed the last issue super fast.

Millard Electronics here in Omaha is where I went last time. I think they have branches in Des Moines/Sioux City/Lincoln.
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post #5912 of 5933 Old 07-21-2017, 01:12 PM
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Here are some Rane rtas. The Rane rtas while being a fun light show, also allow one to apply weighting options. Why do we need weighting........ because we do not hear what we can measure. With the mics supplied with these they measure flat to within
1db from 20 to 16000k.

When you apply the C weighting the RTA applies the science of fletcher Munson equal loudness curves. While still not exact to the ear
this is an effort to adjust output Flat to the EAR, rather than flat to the microphone. I use lots of these for fun, as they also can be used as VU and SPl meters, though max spl is 120db.

The Munson science is where the rules of 4 times the power for double spl, and 10 times the power for double the loudness come from.

Amplifier output meters on our pro audio amplifiers are also calibrated to the Munson sciences, where the db ratio follow the log scale of Loudness, not spl, nor output in watts. Zero on the amplifier output scale or momentary clipping now and then is considered full output. This means that any amplifier with accurately calibrated output meters, will give its full out put at 0db. 10db down from this full output would be 10 times the power less, So a 5000 rms amplifier will be putting out 500 watts at minus ten db.

Because of the huge hill here. 4 times the power for spl and 10 times the power for loudness, Once we reach 1000 watt rms
the benefits of more power are mute in comparison to any further output benefits. So much so that even arguing over a few db
here or there is quite meaningless with the huge waste of power that must be achieved to get further output.

One must remember that in statistical analysis. For proper comparison , one must isolate the factor being evaluated. IN this case it is the value of more power past the 1000 watt rms mark. The only way this can be done is by driving all that power into a single subwoofer, and then measuring its output , with both weighting and no weighting. In any event the total benefit available from 1000 to 10000 watts, is a max of 10db for double the loudness, and a max of doubling spl once at 6db. Once we doulbe spl once at 6db
this brings us to 4000 watts, vs 1000 watts starting point, One more doubling of spl would require 16000 watts.

Now most of us will never use this much power for a single subwoofer. You can use multiple subwoofers , but once you do this you are no longer isolating power as the factor causing the increased output, YOu now have increased displacement to take into account.
as well as any benefits of porting.

The fact displacement is the main factor of bass output can be seen everyday, buy looking at anyone who creates a super woofer
sub system. They got not only huge 15 inch to 24 inch subwoofers, but also use 8 and more. This is because 1000 to 2000 watts per sub is pretty much all you need to get output that would make you leave the room, rather than sit and enjoy the bass.

The majority of users will easily find out for themselves, that as you increase displacement. less and less power is actually needed,
unless your planning on making spl records rather than enjoying music, and why AVS told us that nynot felt he was giving up the goat and had to move to ported. Because increasing displacement that way was still necessary with all his electrifying god given power.

As you add each subwoofer, you are no longer evaluating power above 1000rms to 10000 rms, You are now starting at zero again for that added subwoofer............. So if one wants to brag about a 10000 watt amp, the only benefit I can see is less space using a single amplifier to power a lot of subwoofers as well as for the definite need of a single outlet with 30 amp minimum, and maybe even 240 volt applied.

The other factors to consider is having multiple huge motors on a single amplifier. The amplifier only sees one driver, no matter what you hook up to it. All those coils and all those magnets mean the back emf generated by each subwoofer now travels back to impede proper woofer control, though a single 12 gauge wire. OR maybe we need to go to 10 gauge here LOL. With the two ohm load required for these same supposed high power amplifiers, the load resistance is near zero, and so is the resistance to any back emf generated.

Granted 10 useless smps amplifiers would probably be no improvement vs high grade toroidal amps, especially given the fact 99 percent of them have the 500 watt breakdown in the psu explained by speaker power LOl. Along with all the smps complaints, ie the prior user on this thread , ditching off 6 amps as bad. That is a lot of cost and pain to go through looking for a good amplifier. So Nynot is correct in that, IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE AMPLIFIER. as smps is bad all around. But then again IT DEPENDS. is not really an answer.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.

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post #5913 of 5933 Old 07-21-2017, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post
Here are some Rane rtas. The Rane rtas while being a fun light show, also allow one to apply weighting options. Why do we need weighting........ because we do not hear what we can measure. With the mics supplied with these they measure flat to within
1db from 20 to 16000k.

When you apply the C weighting the RTA applies the science of fletcher Munson equal loudness curves. While still not exact to the ear
this is an effort to adjust output Flat to the EAR, rather than flat to the microphone. I use lots of these for fun, as they also can be used as VU and SPl meters, though max spl is 120db.
Are you saying that you apply weighting curves to your music to try to "fix" the mix? This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, sadly it's not the first time I've heard it. The mix is mixed by ear by engineers who know what they are doing. You don't need to apply any weighting in your system to make it "flat".

Quote:
The Munson science is where the rules of 4 times the power for double spl, and 10 times the power for double the loudness come from.
Maybe it's true that someone that had no idea what they were looking at made this association by looking at the FM curves, but as I've told you several times now, this only applies in the midrange. NOT in the bass. If it was a universal truth the FM curves would all be parallel to each other (at different levels but perfectly parallel). This is clearly not the case. The curve shapes change dramatically as more and more power is applied, the result being that bass is more easily heard at lower frequencies as volume increases. It DOES NOT take 10 times more power to double the loudness in the low bass. LOOK AT THE FM CURVES - IT COULDN"T BE MORE CLEAR.

You keep arguing the same old tired nonsense points over and over and they are no more true now than when you started.

Quote:
Amplifier output meters on our pro audio amplifiers are also calibrated to the Munson sciences, where the db ratio follow the log scale of Loudness, not spl, nor output in watts.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is not true at all. For example, my Technics amp that I bought in grade 10 has lights on it, 0.01 watts, 0.1 watts, 1 watt 10 watts and 110 watts. That's five lights and they are clearly connected to the input signal because they light up even if there's no load attached to the amp. Those lights are giving a power estimate based on an assumed speaker load of 8 ohms.

While it is true that on receivers that display up to 0 db, 10 db down will be somewhere around 10 times less power, this has nothing to do with anything, everyone knows this and it has nothing to do with FM curves, it's about power output. It CAN'T be about FM curves because the FM curves shapeshift as power is increased or decreased.

I'm pretty sure that's pretty close to how ALL amp power meters function, from my grandpa's analogue meter to today's digital meters. They have nothing at all to do with FM curves.

At this point I think you are trying to make stuff up either for your own amusement or to try to derail the thread.

To address the rest of the long winded tirade you posted, this is all about SYSTEM design. Everybody knows doubling Sd adds 3 db. Everyone knows doubling power adds 3 db. Whatever mix of adding Sd or more power is chosen, it's a SYSTEM design issue, not an amp size issue. Arguing that there's no point in creating an amp larger than you deem necessary is entirely hubris on your part and doesn't help anyone, in fact you are deliberately trying to force your design decisions on others. This is a bad idea because you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

This is the same old argument you've been posting over and over. You've been spoon fed data and pictures that prove your ideas are pretty far out there and disassociated from reality or common sense. It might be time to give up now. Spend some time studying these things you love to talk about.
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post #5914 of 5933 Old 07-21-2017, 02:17 PM
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I have not read a single one of your posts Diy guy. Everyone can easily find out for themselves that smps amplifiers are useless
and unreliable, and that 5000 dollar SMPS amplifiers are not required for the home user looking to search for Bass output.

Further the whole problem of SMPS started with the ALL NEW ratings that needed to be developed and agreed upon by the industry,
in order to rate the new amplifier technology. If they used the same rating as Toroidal amplifiers, they would look pail in comparison.

So they came up with 22 ms burst LOL. A meaningless number that makes me think of rubbing my feet on the carpet and touching the wall. Completely useless as a rating as the output is not even capable of driving music signals from 20 to 20k properly.

Now we can move to a company like Meyer Sound. And they will say.... Yes we know this, we are willing to give up the goat and
rate all our amplifiers to 100 ms burst minimum............... Although this also is not enough power for musical proper output, it
is a huge slap in the face to the audio industries agreed upon 22ms burst rating.

Now with speaker power, if we assume the 3 second burst is correct........................ this would in fact be completely meaningful
to output, but still , its the only amp making such a claim, and it only puts out 2000 rms. Only by two ohm loading can we increase power, but we could do that 20 years ago, when it was the only way to get high power.

The inadequacies of SMPS amplifiers is self evident in the the strive for manufacturers to increase this magical new burst power
they all rate their amplifiers too, hoping to achieve the equivalent of toroidal power...........

As Yorkville sound has pointed out. Toroidal amplifiers also produce this same burst power, just no one cared it significant to measure when most amps were toroidal based. Usually this is around 50 percent higher than standard ratings, So a 5000 watt toroidal will burst at 7500 minimum , 22ms burst. ...... But like i said.... rub your feet on the carpet and you will get more output.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.
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post #5915 of 5933 Old 07-21-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post
I have not read a single one of your posts Diy guy.
Yeah, I don't believe that, I'm pretty sure you've quoted my posts at least once. I believe you scan them quickly to find out if I agree with you or not and whether or not you can understand them and that's likely as far as you go. I will agree that you don't understand my posts though, that much is overwhelmingly clear.


Quote:
Everyone can easily find out for themselves that smps amplifiers are useless
and unreliable, and that 5000 dollar SMPS amplifiers are not required for the home user looking to search for Bass output.

Further the whole problem of SMPS started with the ALL NEW ratings that needed to be developed and agreed upon by the industry,
in order to rate the new amplifier technology. If they used the same rating as Toroidal amplifiers, they would look pail in comparison.

So they came up with 22 ms burst LOL. A meaningless number that makes me think of rubbing my feet on the carpet and touching the wall. Completely useless as a rating as the output is not even capable of driving music signals from 20 to 20k properly.

Now we can move to a company like Meyer Sound. And they will say.... Yes we know this, we are willing to give up the goat and
rate all our amplifiers to 100 ms burst minimum............... Although this also is not enough power for musical proper output, it
is a huge slap in the face to the audio industries agreed upon 22ms burst rating.

Now with speaker power, if we assume the 3 second burst is correct........................ this would in fact be completely meaningful
to output, but still , its the only amp making such a claim, and it only puts out 2000 rms. Only by two ohm loading can we increase power, but we could do that 20 years ago, when it was the only way to get high power.

The inadequacies of SMPS amplifiers is self evident in the the strive for manufacturers to increase this magical new burst power
they all rate their amplifiers too, hoping to achieve the equivalent of toroidal power...........

As Yorkville sound has pointed out. Toroidal amplifiers also produce this same burst power, just no one cared it significant to measure when most amps were toroidal based. Usually this is around 50 percent higher than standard ratings, So a 5000 watt toroidal will burst at 7500 minimum , 22ms burst. ...... But like i said.... rub your feet on the carpet and you will get more output.
You ever notice that every time you are given an answer with any technical details at all you immediately switch the topic? I proved again that you don't understand the FM curves so now we're back to SMPS.

You know what? I don't trust any amp manufacturer specs. I look for 3rd party independent testing. And it has been done for this amp, it can output somewhere around 3 or 4000 watts continuous. How much does your amp put out?
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post #5916 of 5933 Old 07-21-2017, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post
Yeah, I don't believe that, I'm pretty sure you've quoted my posts at least once. I believe you scan them quickly to find out if I agree with you or not and whether or not you can understand them and that's likely as far as you go. I will agree that you don't understand my posts though, that much is overwhelmingly clear.




You ever notice that every time you are given an answer with any technical details at all you immediately switch the topic? I proved again that you don't understand the FM curves so now we're back to SMPS.

You know what? I don't trust any amp manufacturer specs. I look for 3rd party independent testing. And it has been done for this amp, it can output somewhere around 3 or 4000 watts continuous. How much does your amp put out?
Nevermind that it will also output 6 cycle bursts at 14kw at 40hz... forget about crest factor, lets talk about FM curves some more.
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post #5917 of 5933 Old 07-22-2017, 11:36 AM
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post #5918 of 5933 Old 07-22-2017, 01:09 PM
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Interesting to see who makes these clones. Are these clones of the Basso ?

These do appear to have some kind of nomad link or link parts anyway. There are nomad sockets on the back and another switch above the power switch on the front.

I bought sanway fp14000 last year and it was the 5 fan version, about $840 shipped to my door.
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post #5919 of 5933 Old 07-22-2017, 01:46 PM
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It's a bit disingenuous (or at least sneaky) to list the FP14000 model number but not the manufacturer. There doesn't seem to be any manufacturer ID on those cases at all (but I didn't look too close). I'm pretty sure the intent there is to fool people into thinking they are buying LG originals. I don't mind the whole idea of clones but trying to pass them off as not clones is very bad, even if it's just by omission of important details in the ad. I imagine he special ordered them with no branding on them just to resell them.

Bossobass is trying to pass his off as not clones but at least he makes it pretty clear they are not LG OEM.

The markup on those amps seems almost reasonable given the state of our CDN $$$ right now but I certainly wouldn't buy it without knowing who made it. What's the warranty if you don't even know who made it?

The same guy is also selling this - http://www.ebay.ca/itm/BRAND-NEW-LOT...QAAOSwDmBY3V02

Probably thinks he's going to do this for a living.

Another ebay account is selling this - http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-6-FP10000...gAAOSw5UZY~sE8

Who exactly is buying these things in lots of 4 and 6? That's nuts, I wish I had that kind of money to throw around. I mean, I could afford it but I'd feel pretty guilty about it.
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post #5920 of 5933 Old 07-22-2017, 02:00 PM
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That second link I just posted actually looks interesting - 3 years actual warranty from the US based seller, they pay shipping and provide a new amp if there's a warranty claim within 30 days, they service what they sell, 100 percent positive feedback, the ad says high grade close tolerance components. He doesn't have any FP14000s listed though, too bad.
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post #5921 of 5933 Old 07-22-2017, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by diy speaker guy View Post
It's a bit disingenuous (or at least sneaky) to list the FP14000 model number but not the manufacturer. There doesn't seem to be any manufacturer ID on those cases at all (but I didn't look too close). I'm pretty sure the intent there is to fool people into thinking they are buying LG originals. I don't mind the whole idea of clones but trying to pass them off as not clones is very bad, even if it's just by omission of important details in the ad. I imagine he special ordered them with no branding on them just to resell them.

Bossobass is trying to pass his off as not clones but at least he makes it pretty clear they are not LG OEM.

The markup on those amps seems almost reasonable given the state of our CDN $$$ right now but I certainly wouldn't buy it without knowing who made it. What's the warranty if you don't even know who made it?

The same guy is also selling this - http://www.ebay.ca/itm/BRAND-NEW-LOT...QAAOSwDmBY3V02

Probably thinks he's going to do this for a living.

Another ebay account is selling this - http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-6-FP10000...gAAOSw5UZY~sE8

Who exactly is buying these things in lots of 4 and 6? That's nuts, I wish I had that kind of money to throw around. I mean, I could afford it but I'd feel pretty guilty about it.
I don't think they're trying to fool anyone, their logo says "clone specialists" rofl.
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post #5922 of 5933 Old 07-22-2017, 04:16 PM
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Yeah, ok. I didn't see that part.
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post #5923 of 5933 Old 07-22-2017, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Are those guys us or canuckia? says ontario and ny on the auction page
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FP-Mart seems to be Canada. Some of FP-Mart's ads say item location is North York, Ontario and some of the ads say item location is Winnipeg, Manitoba. So maybe two shops (or warehouses or whatever), but both in Canada. I'm not exactly sure where North York is but I think it's a 3 hour drive from me.

The other guy with this ad - http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-6-FP10000...506?rmvSB=true - is in the US.

And I wouldn't be surprised if they both were operated by the same guy, but maybe not. Both are offering 3 year warranties, both have similar ad write ups.
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post #5925 of 5933 Old 07-23-2017, 10:11 PM
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Nevermind that it will also output 6 cycle bursts at 14kw at 40hz... forget about crest factor, lets talk about FM curves some more.
I used to have FM but now I have spotify
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post #5926 of 5933 Old 07-26-2017, 01:57 PM
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What is the going rate on a FP14000 right now?

SIAP but not staying up on this thread for past couple years. What advancements have their been to the model I bought in 2013?

Reason is - electronics store called me - said its a 1/2 day job to repair the amp so about $640 total.

If a new clone is $840 shipped go with that? He said the parts in his opinion would be a bit higher quality than the chinese inputs, dunno what to think.
Said the row of 16? caps and diodes was kaputt.

WWYD?

Alternatively, what else rack mountable, with speakons, I could swap out to power my 4 - UXL18s sealed?
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post #5927 of 5933 Old 07-26-2017, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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new ones have improved power supply, about $650 shipped iirc from sanway.

you can get the ones from botai for about 850 which have a bit more caps and can sustain slightly more power for longer.
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new ones have improved power supply, about $650 shipped iirc from sanway.

you can get the ones from botai for about 850 which have a bit more caps and can sustain slightly more power for longer.
$650 shipped? Thats like a $200 discount IIRC from my first try. I emailed Johnson for a quote to my address to see. I emailed him before on my gmail and no response so trying the actual website portal.

Would anyone want my old for parts if I do? Or I'm considering also shipping back to Johnson if they would do me a solid and repair it and send it back to me if I'm only on the hook for shipping etc.

Thanks
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post #5929 of 5933 Old 07-27-2017, 02:54 AM
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Let us know how much the new fp1400's are running from sanway if you ever hear back from them.
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post #5930 of 5933 Old 07-27-2017, 01:31 PM
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Let us know how much the new fp1400's are running from sanway if you ever hear back from them.
Well, it looks like it is still the same price.

FP14000 - $660
DHL (they still ship here? thought they didn't) - $150
4% Paypal commission - $32.40

Total: $842.40

2 year warranty supposedly now on their website warranty

Thought I'd save some dough on this. Now I'm thinking about fixing my old one. Then again, not sure what $650 fix in American parts and service vs a new FP14000 that is now "2 ohm stable we sure you happy" for $842 - where the decision point is there.
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post #5931 of 5933 Old 07-27-2017, 04:56 PM
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Alternatively, what else rack mountable, with speakons, I could swap out to power my 4 - UXL18s sealed?
This would be perfect:
http://www.speakerpower.net/store/p24/SP2-8000-DP.html
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post #5932 of 5933 Old 07-27-2017, 05:02 PM
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Yeah, I don't know if my bonus is gonna be big enough to carve out some for that.
I'm pretty sure its another FP14k from china or fixing the current one, or an alternative one, but unless something has come on the market in the past few years (I haven't been paying attention) that gives me the clone power with the price point?

Luckily the 4 subs are just in a huge open main floor and not a dedicated theater or I'd be chomping at the bit to purchase something.

So, do I just buy a new clone? Has anyone bought a new one and had an old, and seen an improvement? All I saw in the thread was the change in cooling fans?
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post #5933 of 5933 Old 07-27-2017, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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they can sustain another kw of output and run stable at 2 ohms, otherwise they're essentially the same.
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