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Lab Gruppen FP14000 clone amplifiers

1M views 8K replies 554 participants last post by  jmilleril 
#1 · (Edited)
DO NOT MESSAGE ME ABOUT THESE AMPS. I have nothing to do with Sanway or purchasing these amps. Any information I have is in this thread. If you have questions, CONTACT THE MFR. The information is in this thread.

So in my quest for even more power, I ended up looking for the biggest amp I could find. That ended up to be the Lab Gruppen FP14000. However, I would need four of them, and a cost of $6500 a piece put them out of my range. Fortunately, the fine PRC of China does not care much for intellectual property, and has produced a magnificent clone. Actually, they produced many clones. The problem was finding a good one.

Tasso, CVR,and a few other companies will resell busted or QC failed amps, or even clones from another source. Many other companies will resell another company's amp and claim it as their own (shocking).

In my search, I found two suppliers who were producing their own units. These were Gisen and Sanway. I ended up purchasing from Sanway for a few reasons. First, they use higher capacity capacitors. Second, their heatsinks are actual copper. The only downside is that each amp has four fans that I will have to replace or put a resistor inline to quiet them down. I'm in the process of doing this now as I have a bunch of test fans. The fans in the amp are 24v. The amps are priced at $726 a piece. Quite the bargain if you feel comfortable wiring money to China with no recourse if your goods don't show up. It cost a little over $400 to ship them DHL to NY.


If someone wants to try one of the Gisen, be my guest. When I was going to order a sample to compare anyway, they told me they didn't have the parts on hand to build it. Two days later they told me they were good to go, but after that I didn't even want to risk it. If someone else wants to order one from there and compare, that would be cool, but the Sanway amps are great.

Anyway, onto the good stuff. These amps are monsters. My subs go so much louder now. Easily +6db over the MA-5050s in stereo mode at 4ohms (tested at 10hz). When the bass hits, it literally dims the lights in my house. I have 200a service. The amps are connected on four 30a breakers at 120v. The displays on these are nice. They will not blind you, and have nice level meters.

Now for the bad stuff. The amps weren't exactly perfect. The one issue I've seen so far is that one of the voltage protection switches when set to "hard" will cause the VPL light to light. This is only on one amp and I am going to contact Sanway about it. It's not a feature I'm using, so I don't really care. UPDATE: I have contacted Sanway. They have supposedly isolated the issue and are sending me a replacement part to fix the power supply board. I will update further when I receive more information. They said it was damaged by Franklinism which cracked me up. Franklinism is static electricity =]


UPDATE2: I have replaced the fans. The amp went from 75db to 52db at the front panel. They are nice and quiet now. However, the cooling is greatly reduced. I pummeled these for a few hours and could not get them to overheat in anything resembling a normal condition. I was running these HARD, very heavy dubstep at levels that became physically uncomfortable to be in the same room. They didn't come close to overheating. The only way I was able to get the temperatures to spike was to run them full out for over 10 minutes. Let me tell you, this wasn't fun. I turned off three of the amps, so I only had one enclosure and one amp running. The lights for -4 were on, and I turned up the knob another 3db. I finally was able to push it into uncomfortable territory. Beating on them for hours, I was only able to push it up to 73C at most. I was able to push it over 90 going flat out. The unmodified amp was on average 15-20C cooler. I didn't notice any performance decreases during any of this, and I would have pushed the amp further if I wasn't worried about melting the VC's of my very expensive drivers.

So, 300-400ohm resistor (using wire wound 5w) and 60mm fan and then an 80mm fan. It takes two of each of those per amp. Pics here, writeup here.


Here are some pics I've accrued from Sanway, and some pics of what I received. They shipped the amps DHL and they got here in 3-4 days. You can see their other clones on their alibaba page which also links to their real page. You can also email them at sanway.audio@gmail.com .

Pics from me:
























Pics from Sanway:























(older version)


Price List





Pictures of the 10000Q were also posted. It is very similar and looks to possibly use the same power supply with different amp modules.

I'm relinking the pictures here. Thanks DL86.



 
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#502 ·
Honestly, one of my enclosures and amps would be overkill for most on this forum. My room is LARGE, and when I was down amps or drivers, one of them did well by itself.


You can run them off a 20a circuit without any issues really.


Using my setup as an example isn't so great, since I am so far into overkill territory it is ridiculous.
 
#503 ·
Right its pretty much the standard for ultimate bass performance but to get legit 10Hz performance, half your setup is still needed and more then 20 amps is needed. Im not so worried about circuits, they are easy to buy/install. Its the amount of power that we are using just to get low enough.


its crazy so my point above is that there are many who are waiting for that solution that gives them 10Hz without needing 4000Watt, 8000Watts or higher. Im doing it but its still crazy, Im not blind about it not being crazy




Im not so concerned about the opinion of the average person since they still think BOSE is a quality HT setup or they think a 12" Klipsch sub rocks. They are definitely not our audience
 
#504 ·
"solution that gives them 10Hz without needing 4000Watt, 8000Watts or higher."


with conventional technology, the tradeoff would be size. high sensitivity at 10hz pretty much requires an infinite baffle type setup or a similarly large horn.


out of curiousity, i plugged some numbers in hornresp. an lms in a 35 cubic foot tapped horn is about 88 db 1w1m at 12hz 2pi space, so 1000 watts gets you 118 db. you are probably looking for a little more than that.
 
#506 ·
In a medium-sized room, reference-level output down to 14-15hz is easily obtained with perhaps 1000 watts or so using one large, but not all that unwieldy box. How much more important is it to get useful output down to 10hz? How much content is there between 10 and 14hz that makes pursuing this goal worth it? I know the content exists and I sure it is there by intent, but how important is it really? How often are we using that depth other than for testing or demo purposes? I realize bosso believes that anything short of response down to 3hz is inadequate, but how many other feel that chasing that sort of performance is worth it when simply sitting down and watching a movie?
 
#507 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/20912475


"solution that gives them 10Hz without needing 4000Watt, 8000Watts or higher."


with conventional technology, the tradeoff would be size. high sensitivity at 10hz pretty much requires an infinite baffle type setup or a similarly large horn.


out of curiousity, i plugged some numbers in hornresp. an lms in a 35 cubic foot tapped horn is about 88 db 1w1m at 12hz 2pi space, so 1000 watts gets you 118 db. you are probably looking for a little more than that.

The dB level is great but the problem is the horn has major compromises. That 12Hz tapped horn give us only 2 octave of high end performance. Seems like a very high cost in space for only 2 octaves. I would like a few more octaves if Im creating a design that cost $$$ and takes up space.


Im thinking more about Rotrary type designs instead.
 
#508 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/20912796


How much more important is it to get useful output down to 10hz?

That is simply an individual decision. How many threads has this been debated?
It exists and some people want to have it...that is enough for some people to find ways to get it. Obviously for some of us its exponentially important. Its like asking the guy that has a car that does Its like asking a golfer how important is 10 more yards to a 280 average distance....It can be everything to some people.

Quote:
but how many other feel that chasing that sort of performance is worth it when simply sitting down and watching a movie?

Its not a majority or minority thing, its does not matter how many. If 1 person out of 100 wants it then someone will design it for that person. The majority loves BOSE, thankfully we are not the type of individuals who enjoy being part of the Status Quo
One thing I do ask of of anyone is to have all the proper reference points before making any final decision on what is important to you. Its the only way you will ever know if it actually mattered. Example The guy never experiencing
 
#509 ·
I only ask the question because I don't really know the answer since I don't have useable response down to 10hz, yet what I do have sounds so damn satisfying with everything I put through it. I guess I'm just going to have to hear it (or feel it) somewhere to know one way or the other.
 
#510 ·
Its hard to explain. I love my ported designs (tuned to 15Hz). If I had to go back I would be okay but there is just something about having displacement and going lower. Its just a different experience.


Mike we have to remember that what you have very few people experience either.
 
#511 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt /forum/post/20912049


I'm failing to see the point of your post.

granted I jumped on the OT bandwagon, this was my point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20912136


"We" as in the majority that thinks having several 30 amp circuits, 18,000 Watts, 30 liters of displacement etc. Its still just a very expensive "Brute force" thing.


Nothing wrong with going "brute Force", its extremely simple but its VERY expensive. Im still watching and wondering if something else is possible, I have the credit card ready when it happens



Definitely many roadblocks, not only the choke to death issue
 
#512 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt /forum/post/20912152


Installing 4 30a circuits cost me around $100 in material. It isn't very expensive.

And the drivers? Amps? Don't get me wrong... if I could afford it I'd throw mine in the trash for "The 1/2 not" but I have not the cash for 1/2 nor 1/8th "The Full not".
 
#513 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/20912796


In a medium-sized room, reference-level output down to 14-15hz is easily obtained with perhaps 1000 watts or so using one large, but not all that unwieldy box. How much more important is it to get useful output down to 10hz? How much content is there between 10 and 14hz that makes pursuing this goal worth it? I know the content exists and I sure it is there by intent, but how important is it really? How often are we using that depth other than for testing or demo purposes? I realize bosso believes that anything short of response down to 3hz is inadequate, but how many other feel that chasing that sort of performance is worth it when simply sitting down and watching a movie?

Until you watch several flicks yourself with solid output that low, until you have enough time logged in with experience, you are correct... youre better off not knowing what you are missing. I run my crossover at 40Hz and would drop it to 30Hz if i could because that 5Hz-10Hz stuff is what i most enjoy and I would give up 10Hz-20Hz for it...I'd give up 10Hz-80Hz as long as I still had solid 5-10. Yeah during the course of 1 movie I may only have 5 to 10 seconds of sub action then, but it's what i enjoy.
 
#514 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/20912796


I realize bosso believes that anything short of response down to 3hz is inadequate, but how many other feel that chasing that sort of performance is worth it when simply sitting down and watching a movie?

I can't seem to shake this nonsense.



Wouldn't it be a lot better to ask me what I believe rather than to tell me?



I've had response to 3-4 Hz for nearly a decade now, and I spent a good deal less than you did in your quest for a 15 Hz bottom end. You really need to explain the whole "chasing" thing to me because in passing it's a joke but in detail it should truly be fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/20912475


"solution that gives them 10Hz without needing 4000Watt, 8000Watts or higher."


with conventional technology, the tradeoff would be size. high sensitivity at 10hz pretty much requires an infinite baffle type setup or a similarly large horn.


out of curiousity, i plugged some numbers in hornresp. an lms in a 35 cubic foot tapped horn is about 88 db 1w1m at 12hz 2pi space, so 1000 watts gets you 118 db. you are probably looking for a little more than that.

one day I truly hope you drag a 35 cubes box of anything into your listening space and post about it. out of curiosity, what dims would that box be so that it would fit through the doors and hallways to your LS? And, would it be clad in brushed aluminum or the usual truck bed liner on plywood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz /forum/post/20912547


He's putting the lie to "All this fawning, ranting and raving about efficiency hasn't produced anything but huge and fugly bandpass boxes that choke to death at 10 Hz.", at least the choke part.

Noah, you've gone from one of the best reads to about the lamest poster here over the past year. Calling me a liar with yet another empty one-liner puddle of drivel.


Post the calibration method, mic, pre, interface, mic distance, room, box sizes, etc, used to generate those graphs, just for the fun of it... then subtract the appropriate dB to equal 1kw. We can take it from there.


Bosso
 
#516 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic /forum/post/20914603


I'm not seeing anything about 140db @ 7hz anywhere near the 3:50 mark

I can't remember exactly where it was in the video, but not too far in. he was talking about a college project that was for Boeing. He created a loudspeaker that could simulate a jet engine at 100meters. He said the lowest frequency it could make was 7Hz at 140dB. Wasn't a practical application as it used hydraulics to move a large diaphragm.


they talked about subsonic frequencies in HT audio, but decided it's not practical and all the wives would be mad... Because of the destruction to home property.
 
#517 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass /forum/post/20914590



one day I truly hope you drag a 35 cubes box of anything into your listening space and post about it. out of curiosity, what dims would that box be so that it would fit through the doors and hallways to your LS? And, would it be clad in brushed aluminum or the usual truck bed liner on plywood?



Bosso

Hhhhheeeeeyyyyy!



It's cool... I'll have something for you hopefully before the end of the year.



Oh and they are: 24"x45"50.5". Fits through the door but a PITA to move.
 
#518 ·
First off let me say I was wrong. Not, I tried 7Hz for 7 mins and for the first time thermaled an EP. Catch that Graham? I've always been wondering what your issue was. I've thrown the breaker on the back of them before way back when, I have popped fuses in the house and blown the breaker on the power strip (not hard to do at all) but this was my first thermal protct on an EP



Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass /forum/post/20914590


one day I truly hope you drag a 35 cubes box of anything into your listening space and post about it. out of curiosity, what dims would that box be so that it would fit through the doors and hallways to your LS?

I like everything you said in your post, but this part bugs me. My weird shaped aztek box was built for a weird shaped hatchback in a car that looks like a space ship. I live in a cheap POS house with small doorways and managed to lug that box in here, move it numerous times to different rooms, then back out. 22 cubic feet, but I could have easily built it so many different ways. I just don't understand people's unwillingness to part with/sacrifice space... but I understand everyone else wonders how in the world I was able to give up so much in an already tiny home. Small doorways are what, 28" or so? So cut 2 4x8 sheets in half the long way for 4 24"x 96" pieces, another sheet for 2 24"x24" top and bottom, and use the rest for bracing. 32 cubic feet. Stand it tall so the footprint is only 24"x24". it's like 4 24"x24"x24" cubes stacked. So you lose a corner of your room. Doesn't everyone with just one 24"x24" cube lose the same corner?
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic /forum/post/20914603


I'm not seeing anything about 140db @ 7hz anywhere near the 3:50 mark

They show nothing, only speak of it after 4 minues. Hydrolic servo
 
#519 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass /forum/post/20914590


I can't seem to shake this nonsense.



Wouldn't it be a lot better to ask me what I believe rather than to tell me?



I've had response to 3-4 Hz for nearly a decade now, and I spent a good deal less than you did in your quest for a 15 Hz bottom end. You really need to explain the whole "chasing" thing to me because in passing it's a joke but in detail it should truly be fun.

"Chasing" is the pursuit of something you want, but don't have. You're not chasing it because you've already had it for almost ten years. I'm not chasing it because I'm not convinced of the value of it, though I admit I don't recall actually experiencing it other than in real life. I don't deny that it exists in media and that it was put there intentionally. I'm just not convinced that there is enough of it for more than just a fleeting few seconds in a relatively small handful of movies. Obviously there are at least a few folks chasing it, hence the reason for the existence of this thread. Why else would people be rolling the dice on fairly inexpensive, very high-powered bootleg amps of questionable quality and dubious reliabilty? What else would they need that sort of power for? Certainly not for reference levels at 14hz.


Did I misrepresent your position on the importance of ultra-low frequencies? I said, "I realize bosso believes that anything short of response down to 3hz is inadequate..." If I was wrong, I apologize.
 
#520 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/20914766


I'm just not convinced that there is enough of it for more than just a fleeting few seconds in a relatively small handful of movies.

Actually the majority of movies have just a few fleeting seconds, a relatively handful of movies have a lot of it.


It would take me a couple of hours to compile a bunch of vids from several movies and shows with single digit output. Every time I sit and watch a movie or show, chances are at least 1 or 2 times there will be a quick single digit part. I watch mostly dark drama, almost never action movies. If you gave me 10 horror films to watch, I bet at least 8 of them if not 9.. whether new release or 20 years old... have at least 1 part with single digits.


Unless it's played back a little hotter down low and you have a platform that will wobble, or a ceiling fan that flops around, you prolly won't notice it.


I'm not disagreeing with you on its value, i am just saying a lot more is there than people realize because it is masked and or simply un-recreated well enough.
 
#521 ·
"one day I truly hope you drag a 35 cubes box of anything into your listening space and post about it. out of curiosity, what dims would that box be"


~2x3x6


maybe the post was misinterpreted. the point was that a huge box would be required.


"The dB level is great but the problem is the horn has major compromises. That 12Hz tapped horn give us only 2 octave of high end performance. Seems like a very high cost in space for only 2 octaves."


yeah. i'm with you. just figured i'd throw it out there for a datapoint.
 
#522 ·
I will be happy chasing the ULF but think I will be happy with four 21's in the end. Having one of these LG Fp14000 seems that would be perfect for me or maybe two.



Either way having minimal watts to reproduce said hurtz always seems like a massive box or multiple horned cabinets every time. AND even then it seems like sealed and big amps is always easier.


But I always have to make the most of a dollar because I cant afford what most can on this forum. But thank god for those that can because I learn alot from them.


My first pair of 21's will cost me the time it requires me to sell a few things that are collecting dust. The second pair I will be out about $1100. So for me I think thats a great deal for me. PLUS selling my Crest will net me just enough money for the LG clone.


But Penn you have more speakers then all of us why haven't you already satisfied your ULF want?
 
#523 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm /forum/post/20915443


Having one of these LG Fp14000 seems that would be perfect for me or maybe two.



AND even then it seems like sealed and big amps is always easier.

yup. I figured if most people run 4 IB3s off 1 EP4000 IB, then 2 should be more than enough... IDK if wiring would help.. but 7Hz 7 mins failed, I'm sure with proper electric and a clone the subs would do it all day long... it was the amps that couldn't handle it.


But the initial comment was 1000 watts, and I believe budget was the point, so in my case I was wrong and fail. I see that not would hand me my ass if he shut 1/2 of his stuff down, I'm sure he could do the same SPL I had for 5 minutes without issue. IDK, I'm not mathmatical and all that like you guys, just guessing.
 
#524 ·
"Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz

He's putting the lie to "All this fawning, ranting and raving about efficiency hasn't produced anything but huge and fugly bandpass boxes that choke to death at 10 Hz.", at least the choke part."

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass /forum/post/20914590


Noah, you've gone from one of the best reads to about the lamest poster here over the past year. Calling me a liar with yet another empty one-liner puddle of drivel.

Just pointing out that Hoffmann's Iron Law applies, regardless of the way you choose to observe it and your penchant for putting down the alternatives choices.


You apparently were referring to TH's, but it can be done with vented or IB.


fyi "put the lie to" is a figure of speech that applies to the statement, not the stater.
 
#525 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/20914766


"Chasing" is the pursuit of something you want, but don't have. You're not chasing it because you've already had it for almost ten years. I'm not chasing it because I'm not convinced of the value of it, though I admit I don't recall actually experiencing it other than in real life. I don't deny that it exists in media and that it was put there intentionally. I'm just not convinced that there is enough of it for more than just a fleeting few seconds in a relatively small handful of movies. Obviously there are at least a few folks chasing it, hence the reason for the existence of this thread. Why else would people be rolling the dice on fairly inexpensive, very high-powered bootleg amps of questionable quality and dubious reliabilty? What else would they need that sort of power for? Certainly not for reference levels at 14hz.


Did I misrepresent your position on the importance of ultra-low frequencies? I said, "I realize bosso believes that anything short of response down to 3hz is inadequate..." If I was wrong, I apologize.

No need to apologize.



I'd like to quote you, if I may:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/20482279



There is one more intangible. With 750 watts, the Ultra is likely to be seeing some power compression because it is approaching is max. With 1336 watts, the Cap is coasting. It's not approaching it's x-max. It's not likely that it's coil is overheating since it's designed for up to 4000 watts. How many db is this factor worth?

So, you suspect the SVS is underpowered (and, like all commercial subs, indeed it is) and you admit your Cap is quite a bit underpowered with 2KW, but question folks who prefer +3dB of amplifier headroom over a single-driver powered Caps stock power plant.


This is the disconnect for me. a shared 15A circuit gives about 1500W. A dedicated 20A circuit bumps that by around +2dB, and a dedicated 30A circuit adds around +4dB, regardless of the amplifier used. The headroom is for transients. Movie soundtracks, regardless of how much of the LFE BW they use or how often, have a typical peak-to-average of >30dB in the SW BW.


Common sense dictates that a 1000W amp is useless in this scenario. Your Cap claims around 85dB sensitivity at 14 Hz. You'd need more than 1000W to handle the P2A of 85-115dB... at 1M. Applying a 4KW amp gives only +6dB of headroom over that scenario. And, in a multi-sealed system, 8KW is only +3dB over the single-driver ported Caps amp compliment.


As far as the whole "chasing" thing goes, this is what I would call "chasing", or better yet, being led down a path by marketing and herd mentality:

Quote:
As a background, I've owned a [ ], and [ ], and my last sub was a [ ]. I hooked up just one of the [latest ID sub] first and it completely blew every other sub I've owned out of the water...
Quote:
I've owned and used lots of subs...
Quote:
I've owned quite a few subs over the years from [ ], [ ], [ ], [ ], [ ], [ ], [ ], [ ] and [ ]...
Quote:
I have owned a bunch of subwoofers
Quote:
I've owned a number of different subwoofers and this one by far is my favorite.

No sooner is that magic latest ID sub shipped than you get a notice of the pre-sale of the "New and Improved" version, which really just means that the one you bought is crap. Instead of saying, "Wow, I've been had", they say "Wow, I'm selling my sub and jumping on that pre-order sale"!


350W became 500W, became 750W, then 1000W. Seaton upped the ante to 2400W and Jeff went to 4KW. JL Audio, Velo and Paradigm (and others) have gone with even more power. And, none of those products are worth much below 15 Hz.


So, why are they going to more and more power?


notnyt built sealed boxes and installed 2 LMS 5400-18s in each of them. He applied power and gets response to single digits in a huge room (with no L/T boost, contrary to the lore that "all sealed subs require EQ boost). And, I'd like to add here that, like myself, not has provided accurate data on his and other measurement hardware vs the typically terribly flawed REW graphs shown by most, so that his posted data is reliable.


He's said several times that one of his dual-driver boxes and a single amp would be more than enough for the average person. I'll add that that would be a system that will outperform any ID sub for $3k.


He then decided to upgrade his amp power from the MA5050s. Since I've used both amps in a multi-driver sealed system, we discussed the clones via e-mail and we compared notes on the various suppliers and pics of the boards and various features. He decided on a supplier and ordered 4 amplifiers. He installed 4 dedicated 30A home runs because he knows the value-to-performance gains of doing so.


He now has a system that he'll never need to upgrade with 20dB of headroom.


The disconnect for me is in understanding how not chased anything other than mammoth headroom. His system could not be simpler. Build sealed box, install driver, apply power.


As amplifier technology evolves, the best subwoofers will use more amplifier... period. Currently, because commercial subs have to be "idiot-proof" (an industry term, not mine) and because the lower the price, the more they sell, they're all amplifier limited. Single digits has nothing to do with having enough amplifier.


Bosso
 
#526 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz /forum/post/20916314


"Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz

He's putting the lie to "All this fawning, ranting and raving about efficiency hasn't produced anything but huge and fugly bandpass boxes that choke to death at 10 Hz.", at least the choke part."




Just pointing out that Hoffmann's Iron Law applies, regardless of the way you choose to observe it and your penchant for putting down the alternatives choices.


You apparently were referring to TH's, but it can be done with vented or IB.

Yes, I got the gist of your post, but for once, could you include some proof and context? You know, the stuff you always jump on me about. The graphs are hardly conclusive or accurate enough to have anything to do with your point, are compared to nothing, include zero details and Hoffman's Iron Law isn't mentioned in your post. Just offering a suggestion, regardless of how you choose to interpret it and your penchant for discrediting my posts without adding anything of substance.


And, no, I wasn't referring to any specific alignment. I'm including any and all except sealed. So, again, if you're going to use an example, use it in detail, so that I can put the lie to your response.

Quote:
fyi "put the lie to" is a figure of speech that applies to the statement, not the stater.

fyi, that makes no sense whatsoever. "The stater is not a liar, but what he stated is a lie".



Bosso
 
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