Building a Dinner Theater w/ DIY Speakers, Subs, etc... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 585 Old 06-23-2011, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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On a slightly different note; We are keeping track of all of the money we are saving by doing various projects ourselves (electrical, flooring, etc). Clearly one cannot just go out and buy an F20 sub, but how much would one spend purchasing a sub that is of equal performance and quality (assuming of course that that the finished DIY project was done well).
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post #32 of 585 Old 06-23-2011, 08:48 PM
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I would say the Danley DTS-10 kit is the closest. $975 plus shipping amp and misc stuff so around $1700 or so. The DTS-10 in finished form is $3K-$4k. theres probably some more out there but the F-20 is definitely a great bang for your buck.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #33 of 585 Old 06-24-2011, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I am going to purchase the MFW driver as is recommended (well 2-4 of them actually when it is all said and done). However, I don't have one on hand right now to mark my screw holes in the baffle.

Can someone provide precise measurements for the holes, or perhaps a template that I can print out and use in the mean time? Clearly it would be a bitch to put the hurricane nuts in after assembly (well, okay it would be impossible).

I am at a standstill for now...

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post #34 of 585 Old 06-24-2011, 08:47 AM
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There will be small variances and I really WOULD wait until you get the driver. It has happened before where even on the speaker cutout, the cab has been finished then the driver arrives and it doesnt fit to spec. waiting a few extra days is definitely more worthwhile than having to scrap an entire cabinet due to lack of patience. Maybe just grab some more sheets of ply and start on the others

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post #35 of 585 Old 06-24-2011, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

I would say the Danley DTS-10 kit is the closest. $975 plus shipping amp and misc stuff so around $1700 or so. The DTS-10 in finished form is $3K-$4k. theres probably some more out there but the F-20 is definitely a great bang for your buck.

Add an extra c note to that. I believe the new price is $1075 plus shipping. The finished version with amp is $4500 I think so 4 of the F20's with amps would have a rough savings of ~$16-17,000 if your were to buy the finished version with amp x 4. 4 of the kit with 2 ep4000s and eq would come up to around $6-7k when shipping and all is included. So potential savings $4-17k depending on how you look at it. If you were going for equal ouput from readily available commercial offerings you would probably save even more.


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post #36 of 585 Old 06-24-2011, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

I would say the Danley DTS-10 kit is the closest. $975 plus shipping amp and misc stuff so around $1700 or so. The DTS-10 in finished form is $3K-$4k. theres probably some more out there but the F-20 is definitely a great bang for your buck.

The DTS-10 outperforms the F20 in both sheer output and extension. Because of that, you'd have to figure out how many F20's equals the performance of one DTS-10. Two of them? Three?

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post #37 of 585 Old 06-24-2011, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

I would say the Danley DTS-10 kit is the closest. $975 plus shipping amp and misc stuff so around $1700 or so. The DTS-10 in finished form is $3K-$4k. theres probably some more out there but the F-20 is definitely a great bang for your buck.

While I'm flattered that someone thinks so, the DTS-10 is not a good comparison to the F-20. They are completely different designs (The DTS is a tapped horn, with dual 12s, in a larger box, with a lower tune). Not only does it play lower, the DTS-10 gets significantly louder than an F-20, and takes considerably more power than an F-20, that was discussed over in the F-20 thread. There are not too many commercial options for 20 Hz home theater bass horns out there. Of the few that I am aware of, JTR's Orbit Shifter may be a closer comparison, but it uses an 18" driver and has a higher tune (nearer 25 Hz), as well as a higher efficiency. A commercially-built THT would likely be the best comparison in my opinion, the THT tune is within a few Hz of the F-20, the size is similar, and they use similar drivers.

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post #38 of 585 Old 06-24-2011, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

I saw pictures of others clamping the 18 1/2" sides down after putting the PL & screws on. My thoughts told me that just the act of screwing the panels on would make for a very tight fit. I was not certain how much tighter the clamps would make the fit on top of the screws.

The pictures you saw were with clamps and screws, right? They probably used the clamps to hold the panels in place while they attached the panels with screws. They would then remove the clamps and let the screws hold the box together while the glue dried.

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post #39 of 585 Old 06-24-2011, 01:04 PM
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Can anyone provide guidance on sub placement in the floorplans above? I understand that using a meter would be ideal, but I cannot have these monsters just sitting anywhere. They need to be out of sight as much as possible. I have to keep telling myself, we are putting a theater in a winery; not a winery into a theater. :-)

With four of them and your placement restrictions, I would suggest putting one as close to each corner of the main room (the large 'ball room/seating area') as you can. You will have one right next to the spiral stairs and the one across from it will have to be pulled out to make room for the kitchen door. I would not put them on the stage.

You could probably disguise them as columns - Stand them up and make them look like they are built into the wall. Put them on the right wall in your original picture far enough away from the stairs/door to avoid blocking those areas with the mouths pointed into the corners. Mirror them on the left wall, again with the mouths pointed into the corners.

Several home theater build have had very good results with four subs placed in the four corners of a rectangular room.

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post #40 of 585 Old 07-03-2011, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Decided to go with the Dayton RS-15 driver for my F20 builds. The first one should arrive from Parts express sometime mid-week. I figured I only need one right now in order to get the cabinets built. I will buy all of the pricey electronics only after my LCR and F20 enclosures are built. Plenty of cheap stuff to keep me busy until my major funding comes through in about 4-6 weeks.
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post #41 of 585 Old 07-08-2011, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post
Decided to go with the Dayton RS-15 driver for my F20 builds. The first one should arrive from Parts express sometime mid-week. I figured I only need one right now in order to get the cabinets built. I will buy all of the pricey electronics only after my LCR and F20 enclosures are built. Plenty of cheap stuff to keep me busy until my major funding comes through in about 4-6 weeks.
Just a heads-up, the prices of the Dayton woofers just went up 8%.

Oh, I noticed you edited your build post on the first page to include more recent pictures. As for your 1/8", is it because the board is warped or because the board in the mouth of the horn that it's glued to wasn't cut right?

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post #42 of 585 Old 07-09-2011, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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As it turns out, I was worried over nothing. I think that panel 1 was ever so slightly warped that when I pulled on the panel(s) that were leaning in, it took almost no effort to remove the 1/8" anomaly. In the end, everything was flush and square. :-)

I thought it would be easier for people to follow if I kept the continuity of pictures on the same post, as opposed to making people scroll through several pages to see everything.
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post #43 of 585 Old 07-11-2011, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I opened a dialogue with Alex and Elemental Designs where MkTheater had the F20 programmed into their CNC. Alex is going to provide me with a few quotes depending on which wood I want to go with. While everyone knows that baltic birch is the best, it might be past the point of diminishing returns on quality of sound for me since these subs will be concealed behind a wall in our application. Fortunately for me, ED is a mere 5 MINUTES out of my way as I drive to our winery from my house. So I will not have any shipping cost, whereas others who might order a "flat pack" from ED would have associated S/H. For the benefit of everyone, I will post pricing on lilmike's original Cinema F20 page once I have the prices for the various woods that ED can get.
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post #44 of 585 Old 07-11-2011, 06:29 PM
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Sweet! Let us know how it turns out!

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #45 of 585 Old 07-11-2011, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I am almost done with the first F20. I updated the build post with more pictures tonight. I painted the enclosure with a black epoxy that is designed for coating garage floors. I thought this thick paint would have sealant qualities that normal paint wouldn't (not to mention it just applies better than regular paint and needs fewer coats). I realize that these subs will be concealed, but it just didn't seem right leaving the wood unfinished. Perhaps this paint will just protect the wood against moisture as well, though I am not sure how it would ever be exposed to moisture.
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post #46 of 585 Old 07-11-2011, 08:40 PM
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if your barn doors are ever open (no pun intended), this will still certainly help out with preserving the cabs for a much longer time than leaving them Nekkid

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #47 of 585 Old 07-12-2011, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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if your barn doors are ever open (no pun intended), this will still certainly help out with preserving the cabs for a much longer time than leaving them Nekkid

What barn doors?
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post #48 of 585 Old 07-12-2011, 08:37 AM
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What barn doors?

Slightly joking. With it being a "reception" area, wasnt sure whether it would have free air moving through it during events. In that case, the benefit of extra protection would be nice

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post #49 of 585 Old 07-12-2011, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I believe the learning curve for the construction of the F20s is over, and the next three will be.a matter of routine (especially if I get flat packs for them).

Moving on to the electronic guts of the sub...

I believe I will learn this quickly, but bear with me as I begin this step from a position of ignorance. The topics of "high pass", "cross overs", etc have been touched on from time to time. Educate me on how this is done, what it's done with, and how I should begin.

On a side note, I am going to ask ED out of Newton if they will test my first F20 with the Reference HF in it. Perhaps some real world testing will help us in determining the best hardware and settings for the combination of his driver and cabinet?
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post #50 of 585 Old 07-12-2011, 10:20 AM
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There was a lot more discussion of highpasses than I really thought necessary in the original F-20 thread. My opinion is that quite simply - asking a bandwidth-limited sub to perform outside of its intended bandwidth is a bad idea. At a minimum, distortion increases. In some cases, driver excursion increases.

Simple way around it? Only amplify the signal that the sub can reproduce.

While I am not going to argue the presence of recorded information well into the single digits (I know it is there, I have measured it) in some source material, you've got to decide where to get off the train. That means leaving something on the table, it is all about what represents an acceptable compromise. As you've chosen the F-20, I'd suggest that the appropriate station for you to get off the train is 20 Hz.

Seriously, while there is content below 20 Hz in some signals, and the driver will not likely damage itself trying to reproduce it at reasonable levels, the nature of a horn is such that it increases the distortion level to where distortion equals the fundamental within ~1/2 octave below the tuning point. As I am after low distortion reproduction of the original signal, I'd rather not have the speaker distorting unnecessarily. This is my personal preference and opinion, based on measurements I have collected.

How to go about it depends a lot on the rest of the equipment. Plate amps will often have a suitable highpass built in, several have been recommended in this and the original F-20 thread. Rack-mount or pro amps often do not, but there are suitable alternatives. I like the MiniDSP. No, it is not perfect, but it sure is cool. In addition to highpass, it provides a lot of equalization to help fix room problems.

If you're planning to run pro amps (which I'd strongly suggest), the Behringer iNuke DSP series (I'm not making this name up) offers a combination amp/crossover/EQ solution that may be perfect, but they are still vaporware - I have not actually seen one or read an end-user review yet. They are due to be released shortly. Unless something has changed recently, the DSP in the Crown XTi and Peavey IPR series of amps does not offer a low enough highpass for home theater use.

In a nutshell - I choose to highpass my subs that have limited bandwidth (to be honest, that includes nearly everything I have built in the last 25 years...). I typically do so with the filter in the plate amplifier or an outboard DSP solution. I place and phase the subs to minimize nulls in the response. Finally, I EQ the sub to correct room issues to the degree possible by shaving off the peaks in the response.

Measurements of your subs in your room are a fundamental part of this process.

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post #51 of 585 Old 07-12-2011, 01:34 PM
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Just to make things complicated, a person could use a dynamic EQ, which would change the amount of cut depending on the volume (in/output voltage of the pre/pro). At low volumes, there may be no cut or highpassing at all. At ever increasing levels, the amount of cut would increase proportionately. This could be used for <20hz and the 35-45hz area where excursion would be a problem with a lot of power.

The DEQ2496 has this feature, but I have never used it as an ever increasing amount of slope below 20hz, so I don't know how that would work. I'm sure with enough fiddling, a person could make it work.

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post #52 of 585 Old 07-12-2011, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Simple way around it? Only amplify the signal that the sub can reproduce.

If you're planning to run pro amps (which I'd strongly suggest), the Behringer iNuke DSP series (I'm not making this name up) offers a combination amp/crossover/EQ solution that may be perfect, but they are still vaporware - I have not actually seen one or read an end-user review yet. They are due to be released shortly. Unless something has changed recently, the DSP in the Crown XTi and Peavey IPR series of amps does not offer a low enough highpass for home theater use.
I get it now; the only "electronic guts" in the sub itself is the driver. Everything else is regulated from an amp/EQ, right?

Looking at the Behringer you mention, it looks like that would be 880W per channel @ 4 ohm?
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post #53 of 585 Old 07-14-2011, 09:57 AM
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post #54 of 585 Old 07-14-2011, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Just wait until we have floors and the walls can't be seen through! ;-) Everyone in the AVS forum is truely helping this space realize its full potential. I am lightyears from where I started!

Question on the bandwidth range for the subs...I am more than satisfied with 20Hz on the low end. Where does everyone recommend I set the high end for the F20s? Keep in mind I will be using 4pis with the upgraded horns and woofers for the LCRs. I would imagine the subs will serve some music duties as well.
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post #55 of 585 Old 07-14-2011, 10:55 AM
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That's likely something you'll have to experiment with. 60hz, 70hz, 80? Try them each and see which one integrates the best.

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post #56 of 585 Old 07-14-2011, 11:29 AM
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Though MK chose to have it done that way, there is really no need to rabbet or groove the sides like that. The instructions do not call for it. If you do that - remember to account for the width of the interior panels that gets "lost" in the rabbets. I have built subs both ways. Rabbeting certainly makes things easier to build once the grooves are cut, and may make things slightly stronger, but cutting the rabbets perfectly for several cabinets really requires a template and some strong router kung-fu, or a CNC router. Since I don't have a CNC router, I had to lean on the template and router kung-fu, which worked out OK in the end, but it certainly was not easy or fast.

Honestly, the F-20 is not a hard horn sub to build. I tried to make this one as simple as I could. Read the directions - it should all be in there. There is more detail on the access panel in my design thread.

Accuracy is critical. Just keep the layout accurate, make your cuts accurately, and use enough (but not too much) PL and screws, things will turn out fine.

Good luck with your builds.

Hey guys, sorry about any confusion here. I had eD originially groove out the F-20's like the DTS-10's so I could easily line up the panels for a quick install. I then changed my mind and had them just build them for me. I have finished putting them together and all I had to do was screw in the woofer, wire it to the binding post, and screw in the panel, done!!!! Again, sorry for any confusion. I was trying to get this F-20 like a dts-10 kit which I owned.
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post #57 of 585 Old 07-14-2011, 12:18 PM
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That's likely something you'll have to experiment with. 60hz, 70hz, 80? Try them each and see which one integrates the best.

the four pi's should be fine down to any of those but the higher the setting, the better I would say, that is up till the 80's where then you start getting into a large response dip between 90-100 on the f-20. Ive got mine at 79hz and feel it is a perfect xover point for my particular combo.

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post #58 of 585 Old 07-14-2011, 12:29 PM
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BTW, I have 4 f-20's and had 2 dts-10's, I will measure and let you guys know which one does what better!!!
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post #59 of 585 Old 07-14-2011, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I went to Lowes to get the 13ply birch they have in order to build my first 4pi speaker (again). After spending 20 minutes looking for one that had little or no voids and didn't have plys coming apart I realized I was in the wrong store, having pulled 14 sheets out. I looked at the lumber guy and said, "I am sure you will have about as much fun putting them back as I had taking them out. By the way, can you recommend a good lumber store?"

They actually did recommend a store they thought would have a better selection of plywood. Turns out the store they recommended carried the 5' x 5' "Triple B" Baltic Birch @ $60/sheet...and it was 5 blocks from my house! They claimed it is the best Baltic Birch that can be bought. How did I not know this place existed? I dunno.

Needless to say after seeing the Baltic Birch, my thoughts of MDF or going with a lower quality ply faded quickly. After all; if I am going to throw $600 worth of components into a 4pi speaker, why squabble over a mere $15 difference in price between crappy Lowes plywood and the good stuff? Seems like a no-brainer.

That said, the 7ply "oak" ply that I used on the first F20 got at Lowes was actually pretty good. It had almost no voids, and none of the sheets in the stack were warped nor had plys coming apart. If I do not have Elemental Designs out of Newton CNC the next three I will probably stick with the this "oak" stuff for the F20s. THAT said, I am probably going to have ED use their CNC for the other three. They quoted me the following (per F20 cabinet):

$175 for 7 Ply Birch
$190 for 13 Ply Birch
$240 for 14 Ply Baltic Birch

I should note that they count the veneers as a ply. These prices include the lumber and the cutting. Since it is a mere 5 minute detour in my drive to the winery, I cant image this not being considered a good value. The actual putting together of the panels is fairly simple, so I will not have ED do that for me like MKtheater did (I have no idea how much they charged you for assembly...perhaps that could be a good cost benefit too?).

This whole time I thought those preaching Baltic Birch about the 4pis were just being snobs. It turns out I was wrong (or I have become a snob too).
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post #60 of 585 Old 07-14-2011, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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P.S. Anyone who has ever said it sucks to be me living in Iowa seems to be wrong. I have a quality lumber store 5 blocks from my house, a custom speaker maker with a CNC machine 15 minutes from the winery, and all of this stuff seems to be reasonably priced. Starting to get into different facets of business, you would be surprised how many nationwide, and even worldwide companies are headquartered out of the Des Moines Metro area. All of the benefits without any of the location location location costs associated with it. :-)
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