DE250 & AE TD12 Speaker Build? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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just exploring my options for potential LCR builds. i have no clue on designing, so if you know of any build threads based on these drivers, please post.

i am already aware of the the 3pi design that uses these, but that cab is 3.0cf. i am looking for something in a 1 to 2cf enclosure.

i have also heard folks built e-waves with these, just can't find any build threads on them.

thanks.
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post #2 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 01:28 PM
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Talk to Wayne Parham about doing a sealed version or smaller ported version of the 3pi. It should be doable, you will just lose extension.

Other than that, you will need to design your own. I don't know of a published design.
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post #3 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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i did, i think he shot me down on that idea.
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post #4 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 02:40 PM
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How about a Geddes Abbey build?

It's based around the DE250, however it uses the B&C 12"(which is quite solid).

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post #5 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 02:41 PM
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Maybe augerpro will finish the passive crossover design for his No Quarters now that Parts Express is selling the QSC waveguide. I believe they use the same drivers.

Varibus Mari Victoria
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post #6 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 03:17 PM
 
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DE250, QSC 152i, TD12; sounds like a winner to me. It seems strange no one has done that yet though?
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post #7 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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i believe some folks have done some sort e-wave variant with the De250 and AE TD12, i just can't find the details.

the 3pi would be great, but the 3cf box is too challenging for my room. something under 2cf would be ideal, or even 1.5cf would be great.
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post #8 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 06:03 PM
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There's absolutely NO reason why the TD12S can't be used in 2cuft sealed. The sealed system produces an F3 of 73hz and with BSC built into the crossover the F3 should drop even lower. I'm not sure what questions you asked Wayne but with any competant sub and an 80hz crossover point, it doesn't get any easier. Here's the response graph

Attachment 216390

Even with generous amounts of power, clearly the system won't exceed Xmax, and i'd run these with no HP filter at all, only a 2nd order filter for the subs, unless they're horns where the high end hash needs a steeper filter.
LL
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post #9 of 39 Old 06-29-2011, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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hey that looks pretty good. sadly, i have no clue about crossovers.

i was hoping to use wayne's prebuilt crossover in a sealed box.
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post #10 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

hey that looks pretty good. sadly, i have no clue about crossovers.

i was hoping to use wayne's prebuilt crossover in a sealed box.

The 'crossover' i mentioned is in the AVR, for the mains to the subwoofer. You would use Wayne's 3 Pi XO unaltered.
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post #11 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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ah, wrong choice of word. i got the 80hz crossover, i meant the filters (2nd order, HP, etc.)
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post #12 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 06:00 AM
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Do you have a link to where you asked Wayne about doing a smaller sealed setup? I know he has customers who have done sealed in the past. I'm just curious to read his reasons against.

Edit: OK, I found your post. It was as I expected. Wayne prefers to utilize the ported design's extension to smooth the bass response by acting as additional sources in the critical 40-100hz range. Others feel this is unnecessary (specifically Geddes as his speakers are sealed).

IMO, you will be just fine running sealed 3Pi's. You can argue which alignment is optimal for the multisub approach (more sources due to the mains being ported vs sealed being easier to integrate). I'm a big fan of Parham, but I think you can be successful with either his approach or Geddes.

Either way, there is always some compromise in a system and I don't think this a bad compromise at all (if it even is one).

You should post your exact design requirements and maybe the group can help figure out a good solution. What are the maximum dimensions for the speakers? You might be able to do a ported 2 cu ft box tuned a little higher. You could even plug the port to see if you prefer sealed.
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post #13 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks coctostan,

i like sealed because they're easier to build and offer a much smaller footprint that i can easily integrate into my room. my room is small and with the front wall being only about 10ft, with an 80inch screen, it mean if have about 2ft on each side to place my speaker.

with sealed, i am not so worry about the LF extension, since i run multi subs to support that area. as long as they can go cleanly down to 50-60hz, they probably can go a little deeper with room gain, then my subs will take over a 80hz.

this is mainly an HT setup, so running them 'full range' is not a priority and probably not needed.
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post #14 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 07:00 AM
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I ran a sim with the TD12S in a 2cu ft enclosure ported to 40hz and I think it looks good. You could build it ported and then plug that port for comparison. Do you know Wayne's spec'd tuning and box size? I'm curious what his target curve is.
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post #15 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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sorry, i don't know the details of Wayne's tuning.

can you post the graph of this ported enclosure? thanks
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post #16 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

thanks coctostan,

i like sealed because they're easier to build and offer a much smaller footprint that i can easily integrate into my room. my room is small and with the front wall being only about 10ft, with an 80inch screen, it mean if have about 2ft on each side to place my speaker.

with sealed, i am not so worry about the LF extension, since i run multi subs to support that area. as long as they can go cleanly down to 50-60hz, they probably can go a little deeper with room gain, then my subs will take over a 80hz.

this is mainly an HT setup, so running them 'full range' is not a priority and probably not needed.

sounds like you and I both need to get going on an AT screen build, then speaker size wont matter!

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post #17 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 08:57 AM
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Here are the sims. The red line is my guess as to Wayne's setup. He likes slightly overdamped (bigger and tune just below Fs).

The differences are not huge and they are all really tradeoffs that can be argued both ways. I saw your discussion with Wayne where he mentions standing waves. With stuffing in a box that size, you will be fine. I'd use some loosened up fiberglass or cotton insulation. If you go vented, stick to lined walls.

For flexibility, I'd probably go vented 2 cu ft with the ability to plug the port. Take measurements both ways to see which looks better and give each a listen. In all likelihood the differences will be very small.

Go for it!!!
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post #18 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 11:16 AM
 
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Doesn't the TD12S limit the design to ~93dB?
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post #19 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Here are the sims. The red line is my guess as to Wayne's setup. He likes slightly overdamped (bigger and tune just below Fs).

The differences are not huge and they are all really tradeoffs that can be argued both ways. I saw your discussion with Wayne where he mentions standing waves. With stuffing in a box that size, you will be fine. I'd use some loosened up fiberglass or cotton insulation. If you go vented, stick to lined walls.

For flexibility, I'd probably go vented 2 cu ft with the ability to plug the port. Take measurements both ways to see which looks better and give each a listen. In all likelihood the differences will be very small.

Go for it!!!

In the case of the sealed variant, you'll get a much 'easier' blend setup to a subwoofer and the advantage of not having to HP the mains at all. I was surprised to see the modeled F3 of 70hz for the sealed variant which is quite a bit better that that of the Gedded B&C equipped designs.

I say go sealed and never look back or as you stated, add a port with the option to plug/unplug at will BUT don't ignore the phase issues that go along with ported designs/sub integration.
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post #20 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Wayne prefers to utilize the ported design's extension to smooth the bass response by acting as additional sources in the critical 40-100hz range.

The trouble with using the mains to smooth bass is that their bass signals are indeterminate and won't necessarily sum to the response expected by feeding the same bass signal to them and the subs.

You can also still port a sealed sized cabinet and get useful extension.


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Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

In the case of the sealed variant, you'll get a much 'easier' blend setup to a subwoofer and the advantage of not having to HP the mains at all.

How do you not HP the mains w/o setting the pre/pro to sub= no?

And why would you want to waste the main amps' power and add extra heat to the mains voice coils by giving them bass signals that produce no usable output?

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post #21 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

Doesn't the TD12S limit the design to ~93dB?

It limits the efficiency to 93db/1w/1m. That is still pretty high. Higher than most commercial designs. It's not as good as the 4pi, but the dynamics will not be lacking. Dynamic capability is not solely a function of sensitivity.

BTW, with ~15w, the speakers will do 105db in half space...not shabby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

In the case of the sealed variant, you'll get a much 'easier' blend setup to a subwoofer and the advantage of not having to HP the mains at all. I was surprised to see the modeled F3 of 70hz for the sealed variant which is quite a bit better that that of the Gedded B&C equipped designs.

I say go sealed and never look back or as you stated, add a port with the option to plug/unplug at will BUT don't ignore the phase issues that go along with ported designs/sub integration.

This is related to the above 93db sensitivity. The TD12S gives better bass response with its lower Fs and gives up some sensitivity. I think it is a pretty good compromise in this case. Wayne uses the TD12S for the improved bass extension instead of the TD12M which is more sensitive and has a few other advantages.

The Geddes speakers, IMO require a sub that plays better up into the 120-150hz range than what most people use. I bet Audyssey will want to set a crossover in the 50-60hz range for these TD12S's sealed mode. There will be some boundary gain which will raise the f3.
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post #22 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The trouble with using the mains to smooth bass is that their bass signals are indeterminate and won't necessarily sum to the response expected by feeding the same bass signal to them and the subs.

That depends on the bass management of your receiver, but I agree that might be an issue if you can't redirect a summed bass signal to all drivers producing content in the modal region. My Denon is capable of sending the summed content to both my LFE channel and any of my other 7 speakers. I like the feature. I don't know if it is a common feature though.

The extent to which this is an issue is also related to the content mix and how different the bass mix is between the channels in the modal region. This will vary by recording and I've never bothered to look into how prevalent differences between channels are.
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post #23 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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now i just need the group buy on the AK forum to happens, or perhaps Erich can step in and start one if there's enough interest.
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post #24 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
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now i just need the group buy on the AK forum to happens, or perhaps Erich can step in and start one if there's enough interest.

What GB is that?

Definitely go for it. You will not regret it. Wayne's designs are commercial grade. He has put many many years into it. The 3Pi with TD12S and DE250 will be awesome.
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post #25 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

My Denon is capable of sending the summed content to both my LFE channel and any of my other 7 speakers.

Interesting; so it will send the same bass signal up to 120 Hz (or whatever LFE is set to) to mains and subs?

But I still can't imagine why you'd want to subject the mains and their amps to the same demanding ULF as the subs.

Noah
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post #26 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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someone in the Zilch's thread over at AK was trying/attempting to put together a group by for the TD12 drivers, if that happens i am definitely in.
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post #27 of 39 Old 06-30-2011, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Interesting; so it will send the same bass signal up to 120 Hz (or whatever LFE is set to) to mains and subs?

But I still can't imagine why you'd want to subject the mains and their amps to the same demanding ULF as the subs.
There's always a compromise somewhere Noah. Given 110db output levels from the mains with the TD12 well below Xmax with no HP and running the subs with a 120hz LP 2nd order filter, you get plenty of overlap in the midbass passband without phase cancellations from port output and no bothersome 3rd order rolloff below FB, whatever that may be...which.....would require a filter at these levels. So the amps are working a bit harder on the LCR channels............? I run my current TMM's just this way with a pair of sealed 12's and a 15 handling LFE. Room is smallish, like the OP's. With 92db mains, it only gets better for the OP and jis AVR.

My concern is his sub(s) and if they're horns........If so this plan is fubar anyways as a horn isn't going to play smoothly to 120hz.
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post #28 of 39 Old 07-01-2011, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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i have 4x sealed 15" subs, that goes flat down to 12hz in my room. so i wouldn't be too concern with them handling the lfe.
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post #29 of 39 Old 07-01-2011, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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curious, can someone model the Eminence 12LF in 2.0cf sealed?

just in case the TD12 group buy doesn't happen. thanks



Specifications: • Power handling: 500 watts RMS • VCdia: 2.5" • Le: 1.45 mH • Impedance: 8 ohms • Re: 6.06 ohms • Frequency range: 44-3,000 Hz • Magnet weight: 56 oz. • Fs: 51 Hz • SPL: 94.6 dB 1W/1m • Vas: 2.4 cu. ft. • Qms: 7.28 • Qes: 0.51 • Qts: 0.47 • Xmax: 4.8 mm • Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 12.03", Cutout Diameter: 10.95", Mounting Depth: 5.35".
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post #30 of 39 Old 07-01-2011, 11:36 AM
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Attachment 216524

The AE performs better on the top and bottom and has more linear travel. The Kappalight is more efficient...............and the winner is?

The Kappa does very well in 2cuft ported and tuned to 40hz though.
LL
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