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post #91 of 661 Old 07-16-2011, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Krbass View Post
This looks insane. My current room is 20x26. 3 of the 4 walls have concrete behind them. My only issue is my ceilings, there is nothing covering them its just the frame. I am considering covering it with drywall but its a ton of work and more money than I wanted to spend. Will I see any gain from putting one up? I plan on having 2 thts in the front corners and the f20s in the rear corners.
Yah, my ceilings are not concrete as well. I finished the ceiling and treated it just like every other wall. I am not sure what it will do but the acoustic treatments help with ceiling reflections and the wall puts a barrier from upstairs.
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post #92 of 661 Old 07-16-2011, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Yah, my ceilings are not concrete as well. I finished the ceiling and treated it just like every other wall. I am not sure what it will do but the acoustic treatments help with ceiling reflections and the wall puts a barrier from upstairs.
How are your ceilings finished?
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post #93 of 661 Old 07-16-2011, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post
Great thread, those things are monsters.

Does anyone on here have an all concrete room (including ceiling)? Next house to do list.
5Hz @ 130dB would hopefully make me sick to my stomach... off to Lowes!
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post #94 of 661 Old 07-16-2011, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by exojam View Post
MK,

Thanks for the response. I thought that was how to tell when compression set in (since I actually think I asked someone else that before). It stinks getting old and forgetting things.

As for your question, I would not be able to answer that. I still remember ol Chuck (amp testing Chas) telling me if I ever had bass questions to go to Bosso for help.

James
Hi James,

The simplest way to see compression in REW is to take the first sweep and shift it up on the graph exactly +15dB (in this case).

But, folks around here like to drive me nuts having to meticulously and tediously copy the first trace and place it on their graph at +15dB above the first trace (in this case).



I have a few questions of my own, while we're at it:

1) Is this compression graph of all of the horns, or just 1 of them?

2) How was the dBSPL calibrated for the THD results? IOW, what is the reference to calibrate against so that you know it's 'x'dB at the mic?

LilMike R-U-L-E-S. Great stuff, Doc.

Bosso
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post #95 of 661 Old 07-16-2011, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post
Hi James,

The simplest way to see compression in REW is to take the first sweep and shift it up on the graph exactly +15dB (in this case).

But, folks around here like to drive me nuts having to meticulously and tediously copy the first trace and place it on their graph at +15dB above the first trace (in this case).



I have a few questions of my own, while we're at it:

1) Is this compression graph of all of the horns, or just 1 of them?

2) How was the dBSPL calibrated for the THD results? IOW, what is the reference to calibrate against so that you know it's 'x'dB at the mic?

LilMike R-U-L-E-S. Great stuff, Doc.

Bosso
Yeah, Lilmike does rule, these things are beast from 20hz and up.
This was the whole system or all 4 subs from the LP now 4 meters away with only a 250 watt per channel amplifier. I did not expect huge numbers at 10hz with continuous sine waves but with movies and dynamic peaks they should be ok for my room. I even took it to 15% distortion and the sound was still pleasant, very weird. I used my rs spl meter c-weighted for db's. I calibrated at 100 db's which rew said was good until 125 dbs.
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post #96 of 661 Old 07-16-2011, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I find something else cool is that I hit 122 db's at 20hz with 4.58% THD at 4 meters with all 4 subs(peak compressed) and if you use just one sub it would be 110 db's(I gained 6 db's with each doubling of sub and power). Now add roughly 6 db's for my 4 meter for a 1 meter measurement I am at 116 db's at 1 meter at 20hz which Lilmike measured outside(115 db's). I just find this pretty cool. Of course I want to be letting these things rip with some movies and try my hand at speclab but the wife does not want me to shake the house yet(at night and new born). Look for something tomorrow though. After listening to some music I think I am going to like these, I mean lots. I have much to do and I will take requests if you guys want me to do certain things, within reason.
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post #97 of 661 Old 07-16-2011, 10:04 PM
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I know people like to say when you are 10dB down that stuff doesn't count, but even 22dB down at 5Hz... 100dB at 5Hz is INSANE even if it supposedly doesn't exhist due to higher harmonics and all that garb. I again, still, stand by what i said... the Towers played down to 5hz very well, I can definitely tell the difference between the manifold and the Towers, but 5Hz-9Hz was still very strong and not masked by harmonics and higher freqs as much as everyone said they did.

For a 20Hz horn to get 100dB 2 octaves down at 5Hz, that itself speaks to the idea of the sealed horn.
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post #98 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 01:53 AM
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Just want to hear your thoughts on comparison to your two DTS10 you had. So whatever movies you are familiar with would be good. Tumbler scene, Battlefield L.A. Tron and other movies, BUT when you get the chance.

I have four children and no all about little ones.
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post #99 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

the 20hz is at 4.58%

This has me slightly surprised. Admittedly, I don't really know the details of the relevant principles but I'm seeing less than 3% THD at 90dB--95dB all the way down to a 17.5Hz knee for MFW-15 drivers in a pair of ~300l sonosubs, running off of 300W each.

MKtheater, do you know if are you getting much lower distortion at the 90dB--95dB level?


edit: measurements at 2m distance and with Audyssey eq'ing.
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post #100 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Krbass View Post

How are your ceilings finished?

I have low ceilings so I had to connect the studs(ceiling framing) to the planks above which sucks because it transfers the bass too easily. I filled all the planks with 15 inch insulation and then screwed 1/2 inch sound board. I then used 3/4 dry wall and then again 1/2 sound board. The rest is for looks and sound within the room(acoustic treatments)
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post #101 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

This has me slightly surprised. Admittedly, I don't really know the details of the relevant principles but I'm seeing less than 3% THD at 90dB--95dB all the way down to a 17.5Hz knee for MFW-15 drivers in a pair of ~300l sonosubs, running off of 300W each.

MKtheater, do you know if are you getting much lower distortion at the 90dB--95dB level?


edit: measurements at 2m distance and with Audyssey eq'ing.

Yeah, at below 100 db's I was under 1 %THD with these. What people tend to forget is my room is easy to pressurize but hard to get a tactile experience. My main 4 seats are on concrete floors and 4 meters away which is where I want my bass to be good. Once you move away from that spot and get closer the bass rips your head off. My doors are closer to the front stage then my seats so I don't play anything until everyone is seated.

Krypto, my 8 eD system did 120 db's at 20hz, 120 db's at 15hz, and 122 db's at 10hz for comparison(110 at 5hz). The eD system cost me $3200 and this was much, much cheaper which shows the bang for buck with these things which to me is no comparison. Unfortunately I never took THD graphs for comparison or ran sweeps for compression. I do remember my graphs always getting a little flatter when running very high sine waves so I bet compression was setting in as well, of course this is over reference anyways.
The good news is I have never scene a 0 db all channels plus LFE scene. This means it usually comes from the LFE, mains, or both and requires a 116 db's peak which this can handle(10hz). I am running RMS sine waves which are much harder than peak program.
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post #102 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yeah, at below 100 db's I was under 1 %THD with these.

Thanks for the confirmation, MKtheater.

I saw less than 1% THD almost everywhere, except for a few relatively narrow frequency ranges here and there.

edit: the THD-peaking ranges were more like spikes, really.


In case you measured that densely, too, MKtheater, do you recall if the F-20 displays similar fluctuations?
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post #103 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I need to do more, I just can't wait to test movies. I can tell you that 15% THD sounds more pleasant on these than 7-8% did on my last system. Basically the F_20's sound like the bass just got louder and the last system sounded distressed. I heard no distortion from reference level playback from any scene with my last subs. If I push these too much I would not even know during movies since the bass still sound similar.
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post #104 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I just watched the beginning of the Dark Night, the chase scene(chapter 20), and the end. I also watched the beginning of Transformers 2, and the ending. So far, this system is every bit as good as any other I have watched. They match the DTS-10's low end(since I never needed to max out the danleys) which are the awesome pulse waves, but also match the CHT midbass as well as the eD's visceral blast. They do have a slight resonance at times but I have not even EQ'd them at all. Overall, I would say the performance is better but it has been a while since I heard the eD's. I remember the eD's having better tactile performance over the DTS-10's but kept the DTS-10's due to that awesome pulse I felt. The CS subs had the best midbass and the F-20's seem to combine all of them into one for much less money. The best news is I am running them 3 db's hot. Oh, I am not using any HP filters since my room gain make them much stronger than normal under 20hz which is why I even considered these. Time for some Tron, WOTW, FOTP, and TIH. This is my my opinion and the regular guys will here these soon and I will give their opinion as well. Basically, that have a DTS-10 type of delivery but with better midbass(IMHO).
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post #105 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What people tend to forget is my room is easy to pressurize but hard to get a tactile experience.

Krypto, my 8 eD system did 120 db's at 20hz, 120 db's at 15hz, and 122 db's at 10hz for comparison(110 at 5hz). The eD system cost me $3200 and this was much, much cheaper which shows the bang for buck with these things which to me is no comparison. Unfortunately I never took THD graphs for comparison or ran sweeps for compression. I do remember my graphs always getting a little flatter when running very high sine waves so I bet compression was setting in as well, of course this is over reference anyways.

I know what you mean by pressurization vs tactile, and I picture it in my minds eye this way: air as water, my room filled with water. When the tank is sealed up, it is easier to compress and decompress, but when the entryway door and front door are open, the water flows more. Sometimes I think I feel ULF better with the doors open, even if that means dB in itself is lost.

I completely understand the 4 15's in 4 boxes off 500 watts vs 8 18's in 8 enclosures off 16,000 watts (IDK exact numbers, maybe there's 2 15's per cabinet...power IDK) but I know what you mean. I am saying 4 15's (unless it's 8) in a 20Hz horn, sealed or not, 100dB @ 5 Hz is tough.

Furthermore, I think 95% of the people here miss out on single digit bass. Though spectrals may ownly show weak content in single digits, it takes a ton of it to experience it... which is why I hate a flat FR. I watch shows, movies, and listen to music that has plenty of single digit stuff that no one would know it was there.

I think you seem very satisfied ATM with these, but I hope you get restless again and do at least 8 XXX 18's if not more. EQ to 3Hz and show the world the loudest lowest cleanest LFE ever built.
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post #106 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

This is my my opinion and the regular guys will here these soon and I will give their opinion as well. Basically, that have a DTS-10 type of delivery but with better midbass(IMHO).

sounds like you underestimate the weight you carry round here as a critic.. my bad, I forgot to name drop you in my last rant :-P Graham, buddy, I skipped on you too just cuz everyone knows we're buddys mate
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post #107 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

I know what you mean by pressurization vs tactile, and I picture it in my minds eye this way: air as water, my room filled with water. When the tank is sealed up, it is easier to compress and decompress, but when the entryway door and front door are open, the water flows more. Sometimes I think I feel ULF better with the doors open, even if that means dB in itself is lost.

I completely understand the 4 15's in 4 boxes off 500 watts vs 8 18's in 8 enclosures off 16,000 watts (IDK exact numbers, maybe there's 2 15's per cabinet...power IDK) but I know what you mean. I am saying 4 15's (unless it's 8) in a 20Hz horn, sealed or not, 100dB @ 5 Hz is tough.

Furthermore, I think 95% of the people here miss out on single digit bass. Though spectrals may owny show weak content in single digits, it takes a ton of it to experience it... which is why I hate a flat FR. I watch shows, movies, and listen to music that has plenty of single digit stuff that no one would know it was there.

I think you seem very satisfied ATM with these, but I hope you get restless again and do at least 8 XXX 18's if not more. EQ to 3Hz and show the world the loudest lowest cleanest LFE ever built.

8 re XXX-18's would blow my doors off, literally, or break something. I have a feeling I will test them at some point and maybe just add a couple sealed units to my 4 f-20's and bring up the low end a bit. Not needed, but would be interesting nonetheless
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post #108 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

They match the DTS-10's low end(since I never needed to max out the danleys) which are the awesome pulse waves, but also match the CHT midbass as well as the eD's visceral blast.

I remember the eD's having better tactile performance over the DTS-10's but kept the DTS-10's due to that awesome pulse I felt.


MK,

Not sure I follow you. What is the difference between "pulse-tactile-visceral"? It sounds to me like pulse and tactile are the kind of bass that hits you in the chest. Correct? Visceral is more of a full pressurized feeling?.?.?

Everyone has their own adjectives to describe their system. Just trying to see where you are with these.


dbl

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post #109 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dbldare View Post

MK,

Not sure I follow you. What is the difference between "pulse-tactile-visceral"? It sounds to me like pulse and tactile are the kind of bass that hits you in the chest. Correct? Visceral is more of a full pressurized feeling?.?.?

Everyone has their own adjectives to describe their system. Just trying to see where you are with these.


dbl

Sorry, I will decsribe what I call different things.
Tactile-shaking of the room and pants, hair, etc....
Pulse wave- this effect is still tactile but it is silent and you feel is a wave that goes thru you, very cool effect. It happens fast.
Midbass- the region where it hits you hard, punchy, or loud audible bass

I hope this helps in what I am describing. Midbass and the pulse waves are tactile.
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post #110 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

8 re XXX-18's would blow my doors off, literally, or break something. I have a feeling I will test them at some point and maybe just add a couple sealed units to my 4 f-20's and bring up the low end a bit. Not needed, but would be interesting nonetheless

I think a XXX is generally double an eD so 8 XXX would be like16 eD 18s. If you had doubled up your eDs to 16 of them and doubled up on power for 6dB across the board, do you think that would have literally caused structural damage? Assuming the eDs were seriousely LPed so they did 3Hz-19Hz give or take.
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post #111 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Pulse wave- this effect is still tactile but it is silent and you feel is a wave that goes thru you, very cool effect. It happens fast.

Is what most don't experience, single digit. It is what i used to jump up and grab the camera and make 100 videos off. My personal favorite.
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post #112 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 10:56 AM
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great stuff mk. thanks always for sharing. your threads sure are fun.

the distortion might be less problematic because, at a point, folded horns serve as a little bit of a low pass filter, so the higher harmonics (distortions) get attenuated more than the fundamental. who really knows though, as you have several moving parts in your confuguration vs. the previous setups.

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post #113 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

great stuff mk. thanks always for sharing. your threads sure are fun.

the distortion might be less problematic because, at a point, folded horns serve as a little bit of a low pass filter, so the higher harmonics (distortions) get attenuated more than the fundamental. who really knows though, as you have several moving parts in your confuguration vs. the previous setups.

Thanks, I am really just having fun as usual. The first time I ever heard harmonics was when I tested the CHT subs with sine waves. Every system I owned never had a problem with movies at reference. Playing with sine waves taught me what 10% and higher distortion sounds like(10, 15, and 20hz). I then listened to the harmonics on the F-20's and it was different. Again, 15% distortion did not sound bad at all with them where 7-8% on the CS subs was bad sounding.

Krypto, the 8 eD system cracked marble upstairs that I had to repair because it's low frequencies were great.

BTW guys, with a little EQ and SPL management I could get most of these systems to sound the same during movies. This is what makes the F-20's great, they are cheap.

Lilmike, what about a RE-XXX F-20!!!! That could be the biggest monster sub here!
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post #114 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 07:49 PM
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Oh yeah! I forgot about the marble! IMHO, if you **only** get 4 XXX 18's, that will basically be very similar to the 8 eDs... therefore you may as well have kept them. SQ, EQing, all that may change...but sheer displacement...similar.

Eh-hem... Ricci? Lilmike and Ricci team up... cuz Ricci macked up some XXX 12's in a behemouth horn or two IIRC.
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post #115 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

Oh yeah! I forgot about the marble! IMHO, if you **only** get 4 XXX 18's, that will basically be very similar to the 8 eDs... therefore you may as well have kept them. SQ, EQing, all that may change...but sheer displacement...similar.

Eh-hem... Ricci? Lilmike and Ricci team up... cuz Ricci macked up some XXX 12's in a behemouth horn or two IIRC.

BTW, I think 4 RE XXX is more than 8 eD's. 216 mm x-max vs 176. 4 vs 8.
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post #116 of 661 Old 07-17-2011, 10:57 PM
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I was just guestimating that Xmax and Xmech of eD was 1/2 XXX, 56mm Xmax XXX maybe 28mm eD guess thats high. 60mm Xmech XXX vs 30mm Xmech.

Do 4 then! I know you won't have them too long, you never do, shoot me a price used and I'll sell my van after a comp or 3 to buy them and upgrade my electrical!
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post #117 of 661 Old 07-18-2011, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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LOL!

After watching some Transformers yesterday I may not care about trying out XXX's. I know I want to though.
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post #118 of 661 Old 07-18-2011, 06:34 AM
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LOL!

After watching some Transformers yesterday I may not care about trying out XXX's. I know I want to though.

You could always fit two more F20's stacked horizontally on top of the other four.
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post #119 of 661 Old 07-18-2011, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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You could always fit two more F20's stacked horizontally on top of the other four.

That is true.

BTW, I wonder if the distortion I am getting is more of the room shaking and not the subs because they sound too good with 15% distortion.
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post #120 of 661 Old 07-18-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

LOL!

After watching some Transformers yesterday I may not care about trying out XXX's. I know I want to though.

I've been trying to get 06' XXX's since they were being designed in 05'. You are my only hope now, Ricci won't sell... I have a direct connect with the R&D at RE... he will only shoot me links to their authorized sites, so $800/ea give or take. You know you want to! You liked that 5Hz material, you sorta miss it, but you know it takes 10X cost, 10X power, 10X product, 10X the work, and 10X the headache... and when you do get it... the body still perceives it as 10X less than just 1 octave up!
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