The Othorn tapped horn - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 3Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 154 Old 08-01-2011, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
I did these same types of simulations long ago. There is a pretty big difference IMHO. The sim that you propose is a heavily mistuned alignment. Do not forget that vents take up enclosure volume and the minimum vent size to cope with this driver is a 10" port IMHO. Even that was compressing in the tests I did. That large peak that you show will not hold with power.
Ricci is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 154 Old 08-01-2011, 06:41 PM
Senior Member
 
mwmkravchenko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Perth Ontario Canada
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Hello Josh

I agree that the box is not optimally tuned.

If you play with it you can maneuver things a bit.

The peak actually is the most efficient point in the drivers output in this size of an enclosure.

Put a high pass there and your golden.

Attachment 218928

This is the output at one kilowatt.

Notice the dip in the cone excursion at 30 hz.

Your design is more efficient in that the area where most of the mid-bass transients are. About 3 to 4 db more efficient. No small feat to be sure.
LL

Mark Kravchenko

 

Consultant and Designer

 

www.kravchenko-audio.com

mwmkravchenko is online now  
post #33 of 154 Old 08-01-2011, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
So what are you cooking up next Mark? Something simple for investigation of the "pack up and go home"? Don't you have the prototype SDX15 II?
Ricci is online now  
post #34 of 154 Old 08-01-2011, 06:49 PM
Senior Member
 
mwmkravchenko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Perth Ontario Canada
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:


So what are you cooking up next Mark? Something simple for investigation of the "pack up and go home"? Don't you have the prototype SDX15 II?

I guess I'm a bit thick when I don't get the pack up and go home part.

And my involvement in the SDX15 prototype is advisory. It's not my design. I'm there to make sure another set of experienced eyes looks over the numbers and such.

Mark Kravchenko

 

Consultant and Designer

 

www.kravchenko-audio.com

mwmkravchenko is online now  
post #35 of 154 Old 08-01-2011, 06:54 PM
Senior Member
 
mwmkravchenko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Perth Ontario Canada
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
As for cooking.

All high efficiency stuff.

In the high 90's and up.

So I have some sharp pencils.

And I direct your attention to my first post in this thread.

You did a very good job at what you pulled off.

Mark Kravchenko

 

Consultant and Designer

 

www.kravchenko-audio.com

mwmkravchenko is online now  
post #36 of 154 Old 08-01-2011, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
The horn compression thingie....

Yes. I thought you had one of the prototypes though?
Ricci is online now  
post #37 of 154 Old 08-02-2011, 12:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chrapladm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Arent the Behringers and Peavey's still pretty much vaporware?

I dont exactly know what vaporware is?

I could just get a regular EPX2500 from Behringer and some sort of DSP with Hpas but wondered what you thought would do the trick. I like the Behringer stuff but also like the LG clones. Those are the best deals for me for amplifiers.

I was also confused on the ported sim there on the ported vs TH. I never noticed where the ported was better than the TH?

And how would you move a sub like this Ricci?

I haven't had a big commercial like sub like this in 12 years. I would want to move it every once in awhile. I didn't notice any handles on DSL TH's either so I wondered. Do most just set it up once and then never move it again?(TH)
chrapladm is offline  
post #38 of 154 Old 08-02-2011, 04:52 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
You would figure out what you need as far as moving it. I will end up putting casters on mine possibly and a couple of handles in the back panel. Possibly corner protectors also. Or you could just use a furniture dolly to move it. With 2 people one of these should be an easy move.

Vaporware is a product that is being hyped but it never seems to come to market, or is greatly delayed. The Peavey IPR series has taken forever to get to market. If you want to use an LG clone just get a dcx or something similar for high pass and eq functions.
Ricci is online now  
post #39 of 154 Old 08-02-2011, 03:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

The Peavey IPR series has taken forever to get to market.

Just to be clear, the 1600 and 3000 non-DSP units have been out for some time.

I have a 3000 and like it, and it meets the power spec down to 10 Hz.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #40 of 154 Old 08-02-2011, 03:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,307
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 119
Where's the prototype OTHorn?

JSS
maxmercy is offline  
post #41 of 154 Old 08-02-2011, 06:14 PM
Senior Member
 
mwmkravchenko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Perth Ontario Canada
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
The horn compression thingie....

That's me trying to get the biggest bang out of the smallest buck.

Have a nasty need for a 20hz FLH behind a CBT.

Attachment 219009

Attachment 219010

Like I said. A little busy!

Mark
LL
LL

Mark Kravchenko

 

Consultant and Designer

 

www.kravchenko-audio.com

mwmkravchenko is online now  
post #42 of 154 Old 08-03-2011, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Nice Mark.



MaxMercy,

I haven't actually built these yet. (Funds) Looks like someone else might actually beat me to it. Either way I will have a pair of these built as soon as I can.
Ricci is online now  
post #43 of 154 Old 08-03-2011, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Playing with Dave's new additions to HR.

Looks like there are some pretty viscious forces inside this guy. I already knew that from looking at the Akabak data, but yeah... With the theoretical 120v max input The response peak at 110hz results in 14,355pa or 177.1db at the throat. Looking further down into the bass range at 29hz the throat is experiencing 11,122pa or 174.9db. At 100hz the particle velocity gets up to 20.7ms.

Must...Add...More...Bracing...Titanium...Help...


Actually I ran the Gjallerhorn too and it gets even crazier internal forces.





Attachment 219087

Attachment 219088

Attachment 219089
LL
LL
LL
Ricci is online now  
post #44 of 154 Old 08-03-2011, 04:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NEO Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 2,978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I was looking at a revision of one of my designs and this made me
LL

Regards,
Dan
NEO Dan is offline  
post #45 of 154 Old 08-03-2011, 05:24 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post
I was looking at a revision of one of my designs and this made me
Hmm, I thought max theoretical efficiency of a horn was 50%, but maybe resonance can exceed that at specific freq.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #46 of 154 Old 08-03-2011, 06:17 PM
Senior Member
 
mwmkravchenko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Perth Ontario Canada
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Looks like there are some pretty viscious forces inside this guy. I already knew that from looking at the Akabak data, but yeah... With the theoretical 120v max input The response peak at 110hz results in 14,355pa or 177.1db at the throat. Looking further down into the bass range at 29hz the throat is experiencing 11,122pa or 174.9db. At 100hz the particle velocity gets up to 20.7ms.

Must...Add...More...Bracing...Titanium...Help...
Ouch!

On a front loaded horn with a properly sized rear enclosure you end up with a balancing pressure. It works a little better in some ways.

With a tapped horn your on your own. The woofer will be shredded wheat at those pressures.

Methinks that the theoretical maximums should have a talk with the pressure maximums and come up with some sort of compromise.

Then they can all be happy together.

Keep this in mind.

We have a very powerfull piece of kit here in the new additions.

Many designs that look good to begin with will take a beating.

But you still squeezed out about 3 to 4 db out of the drivers passband where the greatest bass transients are located in real music. So figure out where the maximums are there and you still have a really killer sub.

Mark

Mark Kravchenko

 

Consultant and Designer

 

www.kravchenko-audio.com

mwmkravchenko is online now  
post #47 of 154 Old 08-03-2011, 07:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NEO Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 2,978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Hmm, I thought max theoretical efficiency of a horn was 50%, but maybe resonance can exceed that at specific freq.
The <20% in the passband was the cause of

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post
Methinks that the theoretical maximums should have a talk with the pressure maximums and come up with some sort of compromise.
As it turns out, I think it's OK.
LL
LL

Regards,
Dan
NEO Dan is offline  
post #48 of 154 Old 08-03-2011, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Playing with 0.5pi Dan? That will boost up the shown system efficiency nicely.
Ricci is online now  
post #49 of 154 Old 08-03-2011, 09:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NEO Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 2,978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Playing with 0.5pi Dan? That will boost up the shown system efficiency nicely.

Nope, that's a 2pi graph.
It's not so good if you mouth cannot support the pathlength, so this is 4 100+dB/W subs v-plated.

Regards,
Dan
NEO Dan is offline  
post #50 of 154 Old 08-04-2011, 04:21 AM
Senior Member
 
mwmkravchenko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Perth Ontario Canada
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:


Looks like there are some pretty viscious forces inside this guy. I already knew that from looking at the Akabak data, but yeah... With the theoretical 120v max input The response peak at 110hz results in 14,355pa or 177.1db at the throat. Looking further down into the bass range at 29hz the throat is experiencing 11,122pa or 174.9db. At 100hz the particle velocity gets up to 20.7ms.

Must...Add...More...Bracing...Titanium...Help...


Actually I ran the Gjallerhorn too and it gets even crazier internal forces.

I have some good news for you Josh.


1 pascal = 0.000145037738 pounds per square inch.

Your pressure is not that high. Not all that bad.

2.08 PSI peak. Surely that overgrown cone can handle that!

Mark

Mark Kravchenko

 

Consultant and Designer

 

www.kravchenko-audio.com

mwmkravchenko is online now  
post #51 of 154 Old 08-04-2011, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

Nope, that's a 2pi graph.
It's not so good if you mouth cannot support the pathlength, so this is 4 100+dB/W subs v-plated.

Ahhhh. Gotcha.
Is it something you are going to build?
Ricci is online now  
post #52 of 154 Old 08-04-2011, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post

I have some good news for you Josh.


1 pascal = 0.000145037738 pounds per square inch.

Your pressure is not that high. Not all that bad.

2.08 PSI peak. Surely that overgrown cone can handle that!

Mark

Well they already did a couple of times. The only thing to worry about now would be long term fatigue, but typical use is a far cry from those power levels.
Ricci is online now  
post #53 of 154 Old 08-04-2011, 08:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NEO Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 2,978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Ahhhh. Gotcha.
Is it something you are going to build?

I've had a pair of the first generation running since late last year. I can hardly imagine adding the second pair and the slightly stronger/deeper lows it will bring. This second generation is to clean up the corners and add handles, wheels, and feet. If it turns out as expected, I may try to get a flat pack kit produced.

I am using this as a oppertunity to earn my CNC merit badge

Regards,
Dan
NEO Dan is offline  
post #54 of 154 Old 08-05-2011, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

I've had a pair of the first generation running since late last year. I can hardly imagine adding the second pair and the slightly stronger/deeper lows it will bring. This second generation is to clean up the corners and add handles, wheels, and feet. If it turns out as expected, I may try to get a flat pack kit produced.

I am using this as a oppertunity to earn my CNC merit badge

Cool.
Build/design thread?
Ricci is online now  
post #55 of 154 Old 08-05-2011, 10:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NEO Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 2,978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Cool.
Build/design thread?

If it turns out good it's a possibility, but it'll be a while before the details are settled.

Regards,
Dan
NEO Dan is offline  
post #56 of 154 Old 08-06-2011, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

If it turns out good it's a possibility, but it'll be a while before the details are settled.

Good deal.
Ricci is online now  
post #57 of 154 Old 08-24-2011, 11:39 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,924
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Liked: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post

Attachment 218917


One to one. Same internally sized enclosure.

There is a gain in your design. Just not that much.

The trough in the vented design can be massaged a bit by vent tuning.

The inputs are below:

Attachment 218921

r u sure? what max voltage and excursions are you comparing?

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #58 of 154 Old 08-25-2011, 07:20 AM
Member
 
Garric33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Ricci, would the B&C 21SW115-4 be suitable ?
Garric33 is offline  
post #59 of 154 Old 08-25-2011, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garric33 View Post

Ricci, would the B&C 21SW115-4 be suitable ?

Garric33,
Unfortunately no that particular driver does not look that great in this particular cabinet design.

All of these look acceptable in this cab...

TC Sounds Pro5100
18Sound 21NLW9600
18Sound 21NLW9000C
18Sound 18NLW9600
18Sound 18NLW9600C
B&C 18NW100
B&C 18PZB100
B&C 18SW115
B&C 21SW150
B&C 21SW152-4 (Cab was designed for this driver.)
B&C 21sw152-8
Beyma 18SW1600ND
Faital 18XL1500
Faital 18XL1600 (This one doesn't look as good as the 1500 but it could be a new model.)
JBL 2242HPL
Fi Car Audio BTL N2 18d2 ( It does not look as smooth as some of the others and it is a little less sensitive, but excursion would never be an issue with its 30mm xmax and 40mm xmech. Might be worth trying if someone is crazy enough.)
SSA Zcon 18d2 (See BTL notes above.)
Ricci is online now  
post #60 of 154 Old 08-25-2011, 09:11 AM
Senior Member
 
mwmkravchenko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Perth Ontario Canada
Posts: 459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:


r u sure? what max voltage and excursions are you comparing?

Not rocket science.

You are perfectly capable of duplicating what I did.

Take the box volumes internally and port it to the same Fs.

Then run the sims.

Yes there is a large peak on the low end.

But that is to be expected in a grossly undersized enclosure.

WHat the usefullness of such an exercise is to prove or disprove the basic merits of a design.

That Ricci was able to attain a good response curve and keep the size as small as he did was one thing to be happy about.

The second thing to praise is the gain of 3 to 4 db.

That is a doubling in efficiency over a vented enclosure the same size.

Overall a good compromise in gain over enclosure size.

My only criticism comes from the standpoint of horn versus vented box. I have a self imposed rules that to call something a horn requires about 7 db of gain. Most tappered quater wavelength designs will cough up 3 db in gain.

Mark

Mark Kravchenko

 

Consultant and Designer

 

www.kravchenko-audio.com

mwmkravchenko is online now  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off