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post #1 of 43 Old 08-03-2011, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone seen the new cinema screen array's from JBL? I was looking hard at the 3732's but these can be passive and would be easier to setup for HT. I can not find a price anywhere online. Anyone have any details? Here is the article:
http://harmanpro.com/PressRelease.aspx?fId=133

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post #2 of 43 Old 08-03-2011, 09:09 PM
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nice find. haven't seen them. i don't have any idea what they cost. my guess would be around $2500 ea.

are you building some sort of super system?

the 4722N is probably more than you need and it is passive.

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post #3 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 02:19 AM
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My first thought on seeing the pic, was that you're going to need to sit a long way back from them for the sound to integrate well. Maybe a bit big for ye average living abode.
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post #4 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 03:06 AM
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^^ +1...


Jss
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post #5 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 07:43 AM
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Link to PDF:
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...e=3&docid=1743

Pricing will most likely be around $1200-1500 a piece.

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post #6 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
My first thought on seeing the pic, was that you're going to need to sit a long way back from them for the sound to integrate well. Maybe a bit big for ye average living abode.
Agreed they are made for commercial theaters, but there are a lot of people (and a good number on this forum) who use them with great success. Check out some of the reviews from people who have used similiar JBL screen arrays that have compared them to consumer grade speakers. MKtheater is one who comes to mind.

I will be using some sort of JBL screen array in my upcoming theater. The room is going to be 16x25 so it will be a fairly big room.

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post #7 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
My first thought on seeing the pic, was that you're going to need to sit a long way back from them for the sound to integrate well. Maybe a bit big for ye average living abode.
Yep, this is the problem with the mid horn systems. I'd roughly estimate that you would need to be at least 12-15ft away, although the single mid horn might work fine.

I noticed this speaker a few months ago but I haven't seen a price or availability through online dealers.

If you want to go the JBL pro cinema route, the 4722N is a great way to do it. You could even add the midhorn down the road when JBL parts starts selling it. You would probably need to make a mounting setup but that wouldn't be hard.
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post #8 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auburnu008 View Post
Agreed they are made for commercial theaters, but there are a lot of people (and a good number on this forum) who use them with great success. Check out some of the reviews from people who have used similar JBL screen arrays that have compared them to consumer grade speakers. MKtheater is one who comes to mind.

I will be using some sort of JBL screen array in my upcoming theater. The room is going to be 16x25 so it will be a fairly big room.
I'm not aware of any AVS contributer, HT enthusiast using any of these. Obviously there certainly may be, however as stated above, the integration distance would be a few yards minimum. With elements that distant from one another, it takes some propagation distance prior to a coherent wavefront manifesting itself. One does have the advantage of good pattern control down to 400-500 hz., but as coctostan stated, the 4722 would be a much better choice for HT use. Notnyt uses them, and has nothing but great things to say. Additionally, IMO, the 4722 is as big a bargain as any of the other so-called steals in this hobby. What performance one would achieve for the money with them seems like it would be significant to me.

MKtheater had a different horn, I believe his were the huge bi-radial types, and I believe he's now onto something else (imagine that), stating that they where too much for his room.

This illustrates the beauty of the Danley SH line. Their horns need no, nada integration distance as they are physically co-entrant, and presumably, electronically manipulated in the dividing network as to electrically align as well. It is said that one can approach their horn speaker, (with 2xLF drivers, 6x mids, compression HF) and at any distance up to the mouth of the horn, the sound is ideally integrated. They have several models and the example I gave is merely one type.


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post #9 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auburnu008 View Post
Agreed they are made for commercial theaters, but there are a lot of people (and a good number on this forum) who use them with great success. Check out some of the reviews from people who have used similiar JBL screen arrays that have compared them to consumer grade speakers. MKtheater is one who comes to mind.

I will be using some sort of JBL screen array in my upcoming theater. The room is going to be 16x25 so it will be a fairly big room.
That is not all that large a room, and having had very large horn systems well before probably anyone else here, I strongly disagree. JBL have designed them to work at distances much longer than your room.

But anyway, go ahead and buy what you want: they will at least look impressive.
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post #10 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 10:18 AM
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But anyway, go ahead and buy what you want: they will at least look impressive.
Damn right! That's the most important part.


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post #11 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 12:58 PM
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MK did have a cobbled together ScreenArray 3-way. IIRC he never got it fully setup. I don't know what prevented him from doing that.

I'm aware of three home users with 3-way ScreenArrays. There could be more of course. Two are 2-channel 3731s and one is HT with LCR 3632s.

HT: http://monolith-theater.net/hal/?page_id=2

This is an awesome setup. It appears that he sits about 18-20ft away. I love this pic:



First 2-channel room - http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ht=screenarray

They are 3731s and he sits at 4.5m (~14-15ft). He said it works as close as about 11-12ft.

The last guy is just using the mid and hf sections above an Altec woofer:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...-JBL-2402h#top

----------

There are few significant differences between the 3730 and the 3731/3632/3732. The most significant difference is that the HF horn is a 1" threaded horn with a much cheaper CD (JBL 2414H) that crosses around 2khz vs the others using a large format 1.5" exit CD that crosses around 1.2khz. Beyond general sound quality issues due to the different CD (who knows the cheaper one might actually do better above 2khz) you will have some lobing issues. I'd estimate the CTC distance at about 16" and at a 2khz cross you will have nulls 24deg apart. That isn't very wide especially with close seating. You would definitely want to steer the lobe with active delay.

It might be counterintuitive, but the dual mid-woofer options probably work better at closer distances than the single mid 3730. Why did JBL design something that would have nulls intruding on their controlled pattern? Because it is not as significant the farther away you are and cost. This speaker will cost about half that of the 3731 and they do this by using a much cheaper CD, only one mid and cheaper woofers. It is an insane value for commercial theaters trying to pinch pennies.

Another issue is the overall height of the speaker due to the dual woofers. It would be pretty tough to sit on the vertical axis of the HF horn even with its downward tilt. The whole speaker would need to tilt down. It would probably be wise to buy just the 3730M/HF portion and use your own woofer below that.

Frankly, I think a great setup would the 3730 single midhorn crossed to the 1.5" HF horn from the 3731/4722 around 1-1.2khz with a single high quality woofer below it. You could save money on the woofer by going with something like a Peavey LR18 or go all out with a 21SW152 or TD18H. This would work well in a home and you could probably sit about 10ft away with no issues.
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post #12 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

HT: http://monolith-theater.net/hal/?page_id=2
I love this pic:



Me too. So much so that I have had it bookmarked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post


Frankly, I think a great setup would the 3730 single midhorn crossed to the 1.5" HF horn from the 3731/4722 around 1-1.2khz with a single high quality woofer below it. You could save money on the woofer by going with something like a Peavey LR18 or go all out with a 21SW152 or TD18H. This would work well in a home and you could probably sit about 10ft away with no issues.

That's sort of like what I plan to do if my mega mains don't work out well with quad JBL 2226's per channel. The TD18H or B&C21SW152 would replace the 2226's if that were the case.


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post #13 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 01:21 PM
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That's sort of like what I plan to do if my mega mains don't work out well with quad JBL 2226's per channel. The TD18H or B&C21SW152 would replace the 2226's if that were the case.

4 2226's per channel? That would be far more trouble than its worth in a home setting. Duals is about the right amount of overkill, IMO. What are your tops?
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post #14 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 02:01 PM
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They will all be sealed so pretty much equal to dual vented 2226's but with no need for high pass. 12dB/oct rolloff plus room gain ftw!!

Tops will be JBL 2445's on 2380's and I'm thinking about this one Beyma slot tweeter but I'm still shopping around.


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post #15 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

They will all be sealed so pretty much equal to dual vented 2226's but with no need for high pass. 12dB/oct rolloff plus room gain ftw!!

Tops will be JBL 2445's on 2380's and I'm thinking about this one Beyma slot tweeter but I'm still shopping around.

be sure with those to not play the brown note, you will most definitely cause some issues across your entire neighborhood

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post #16 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 05:21 PM
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Max-
You jumped in front again. I was looking for that link.

I sit 12 ft. from my three 4622N's. There is a DTS-10 to the left. All are behind my SMX screen.

I also have an AM6215/95, which is an awesome speaker. If I had three, I wonder which set up would be better. Any thoughts Max?
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post #17 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 06:26 PM
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If somebody wanted to get really crazy, a great setup would be a clone of the JBL AM4200/95 crossed to a nice 18" woofer around 400hz. The AM4200/95 is a M/HF waveguide which uses the JBL branded BMS 4540ND for the HF and a JBL 165H 6.5" woofer that uses their compression mid technology. It is one piece and about 18" square. You could use the stock mid-high crossover and go active to the bass or do a passive 3-way.

There are a bunch of parts to order. The main parts are the WG (~$185), mid driver (~$130) hf driver (~$150) and crossover ($60). You would also need the little parts like the HF adapter, mid phase plug, mid rear can and gaskets.

Put this on top of an LR18 for another ~$200 and you have an insanely capable system for maybe $6-700/channel. I wouldn't be surprised if it would best the 3730, especially in the home. The 3730 doesn't utilize the CMCD mid technology and its HF isn't as good.

Beyond that, this clone could be about 40" tall and 22" wide and 25" deep making for a very cool home speaker. If I didn't have too many damn speakers laying around I'd build some for my office.

Edit: Here's the parts list and JBL's spec sheet:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE%...4200,95-WH.pdf
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...pe=3&docid=644

Pic:

They are discontinued, but I found some site selling them for $1350 and that is just the mid/hf section.
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post #18 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 07:36 PM
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coctostan, this is pretty much what I have in mind.


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post #19 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

If somebody wanted to get really crazy, a great setup would be a clone of the JBL AM4200/95 crossed to a nice 18" woofer around 400hz. The AM4200/95 is a M/HF waveguide which uses the JBL branded BMS 4540ND for the HF and a JBL 165H 6.5" woofer that uses their compression mid technology. It is one piece and about 18" square. You could use the stock mid-high crossover and go active to the bass or do a passive 3-way.

There are a bunch of parts to order. The main parts are the WG (~$185), mid driver (~$130) hf driver (~$150) and crossover ($60). You would also need the little parts like the HF adapter, mid phase plug, mid rear can and gaskets.

Put this on top of an LR18 for another ~$200 and you have an insanely capable system for maybe $6-700/channel. I wouldn't be surprised if it would best the 3730, especially in the home. The 3730 doesn't utilize the CMCD mid technology and its HF isn't as good.

Beyond that, this clone could be about 40" tall and 22" wide and 25" deep making for a very cool home speaker. If I didn't have too many damn speakers laying around I'd build some for my office.

Edit: Here's the parts list and JBL's spec sheet:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE%...4200,95-WH.pdf
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...pe=3&docid=644

Pic:

They are discontinued, but I found some site selling them for $1350 and that is just the mid/hf section.

That HF module looks an awful like the PT waveguide used in E-Wave designs...

JSS
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post #20 of 43 Old 08-04-2011, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by auburnu008 View Post

I will be using some sort of JBL screen array in my upcoming theater. The room is going to be 16x25 so it will be a fairly big room.

I assume your screenwall is the 16' length. So keep in mind that the [audiophile] rule of thumb is to either sit 1/3 in or 2/3 back in the room. That means the ideal seating location will either be 8.3' or 16.6' back from the screen.

My room is 16' x 27'. I sit 1/3 back. Forget about the middle of the room, it's just a huge bass void there. A pair of 15" 2226H Econowave were enough to [cleanly] overpower my room. Somewhere around 3500 cu3^ and also leads to an open kitchen & stairway.

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post #21 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 09:31 AM
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coctostan, this is pretty much what I have in mind.

Sell your 2380's and go down this path. It is a better solution. I'd be more than happy to help design it. You could even sell half your 2226's to make up for the cost.

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That HF module looks an awful like the PT waveguide used in E-Wave designs...

JSS

It is a PT wg. I'm not sure if it is identical, but I think it is very similar. Actually Zilch played with these a while back. There are even less expensive HF CDs that will work on there for the budget minded. I think there is even an audax mid that will work too. That would knock about ~$150 off each speaker although the crossover would need to be tweaked.

The mid WG holds pattern down to around ~500hz which is awesome. It plays well down to 300hz. IMO, this would have been a better solution than Penn's Iwata's with 2" CDs.

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I assume your screenwall is the 16' length. So keep in mind that the [audiophile] rule of thumb is to either sit 1/3 in or 2/3 back in the room. That means the ideal seating location will either be 8.3' or 16.6' back from the screen.

My room is 16' x 27'. I sit 1/3 back. Forget about the middle of the room, it's just a huge bass void there. A pair of 15" 2226H Econowave were enough to [cleanly] overpower my room. Somewhere around 3500 cu3^ and also leads to an open kitchen & stairway.

Or you can ignore that rule and use a multisub setup which can eleviate the mid-room issues.

I agree that a single pro 15 per channel like the 2226 is more than adequate for home use. Many commercial theaters only use 1 per channel.
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post #22 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 09:38 AM
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Sell your 2380's and go down this path. It is a better solution. I'd be more than happy to help design it. You could even sell half your 2226's to make up for the cost.

Thanks but I am too close now to give up and this has been a path traveled for 2 years now. Not gonna skip the marathon to catch a movie when I only have 100m left to run.

I only sort of know what I am doing so it may all turn out to be a huge failure so we will see what happens after that.


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post #23 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 10:14 AM
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I had 3 different cinema screen arrays and it was not too much for my room, the 4675's were too deep for my room because I wanted to change subwoofers. They just would not fit. I talked to JBL before any cinema purchase and they said the minimum distance for their screen arrays were 12 feet. This goes for the 3731. Here are the 3 different cinema speakers I owned and they were all great.

JBL pro 3622N's



JBL 3731(changed the woofer and sealed it)



jbl 4675



Here is something I put together that actually sound really good

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post #24 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 11:14 AM
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Thanks but I am too close now to give up and this has been a path traveled for 2 years now. Not gonna skip the marathon to catch a movie when I only have 100m left to run.

I only sort of know what I am doing so it may all turn out to be a huge failure so we will see what happens after that.

You'll be fine. I was just trying to recruit a guinea pig since I have too many projects to take another one on.

Another neat combo would be a 3-way with a JBL midhorn below a Beyma TPL-150h crossed between 1.5-2khz. Directivity would be solid and both drivers would be playing comfortably within their ranges.
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post #25 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 11:15 AM
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You'll be fine. I was just trying to recruit a guinea pig since I have too many projects to take another one on.

Another neat combo would be a 3-way with a JBL midhorn below a Beyma TPL-150h crossed between 1.5-2khz. Directivity would be solid and both drivers would be playing comfortably within their ranges.

That's exactly what I am doing but I will let the JBL mid go up to 5-7khz and use the Beyma as a supertweeter for the very top octave or two.

It's going to be all fully active so I have plenty of options and can play around with virtually any setting. So I can try that too.

I was looking at that ribbon as a first choice but it is way out of my price range, right now. I'm going to try with this first: BEYMA CP21/F


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post #26 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

That's exactly what I am doing but I will let the JBL mid go up to 5-7khz and use the Beyma as a supertweeter for the very top octave or two.

It's going to be all fully active so I have plenty of options and can play around with virtually any setting. So I can try that too.

I was looking at that ribbon as a first choice but it is way out of my price range, right now. I'm going to try with this first: BEYMA CP21/F

Where are you placing the Beyma relative to the 2380? It is 11" tall, right? So lets say a spacing of 7"? At 5khz your lobes are at +/- 10deg. That is very narrow. I'd want some very steep slopes.

Do you have the Beyma's yet? If you don't mind, I think I have a better solution for less money.

Use the econowave WG ($15) with something like a JBL 2414H which I think is about $70 (you could also use the BMS 4540nd or JBL 2406 thru 2408 but they are more money). Those all play down very nicely to ~2khz and would give you much better pattern control than the Beyma (or the 2380 for that matter). I'm not a big fan of those slot tweeters. I think there is a reason they are no longer used.

You could cross the 2380 to the Ewave anywhere from 2khz to 2.5khz. At 2khz (estimating a 9" spacing), your nulls are at +/- 22deg which is pretty good.

This is closer to what JBL does with the AM4200 and AM6200. Are you placing your 4 2226's in a square pattern below the 2380? My guess is that will work pretty well crossed at ~500hz.
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post #27 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 02:24 PM
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Yes. A quad, very tightly packed cube directly underneath the 2380. The C-C will be WAY closer than anything that JBL builds, themselves. This is kind of a proof of concept build so it's definitely NOT going to be perfect project/speaker system and I do not intend it to be... for the most part anyway. Looks like I will be using the DCX for the crossover and that supports 48dB/oct filters if I indeed need that steep a slope. I've got a lot of options.

No, haven't bought the Beyma's yet. Still shopping around but all the stuff that I'm interested in is too expensive. I do know that I want the 2445/2380 combo to operate as wide as possible. That means I'll cross the sealed quad 15's at ~600hz, let the 2445 operate up to the end of the midrange/bottom treble. That is not going to change, not until I can listen to the system, myself.

I'm sure the JBL AM's are awesomely great speakers but this is what I plan to build. It may suck though so I'll definitely need some help fixing it if it sucks ass. Heh.


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post #28 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 02:48 PM
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I agree with one of the above posters, the value is extraordinary of any of these for HT. From a 4722, to an offering from the AE series, to the big Screen Array stuff. I'm no JBL fanboy, but they've done so much R&D that the entire industry benefits from. These designs offer so much performance for the money, it's incredible. Low distortion, high output, pattern control.....so many people would be better served going down this road as apposed to a significant amount of other marginal struff out there for HT.



Nice trip down memory lane there with MK's stuff. I forgot about those big 3 ways of his.

Thanks

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post #29 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 03:03 PM
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Yup. Well said, FOH.

I think my relationship with traditional HT speaker systems is over for good.


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post #30 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 03:10 PM
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Mine too, as well as melted tweeters!
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