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post #1 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, I got a hopefully easy question. A buddy of mine stopped by today, and was completely surprised buy my dual opposed build. He is kinda a yuppy, and thought that sound couldn't get any better than his Bose set up.. Needless to say my combination of onkyo,paradigm,Cambridge,and DIY made him reconsider this Veiw point.

He is now tossing the idea around of having me build him a new sub set up. He doesn't want 15's due to his wife's opinion that 15's are to big, but she has no problem with 12's.

Now his idea is this, if we could come up with a design that houses 4 12's but only two can be seen. I know a design like that wouldn't be small, especially since he would prefer the sound of a ported enclosure, (he is mostly a rap, hip hop listener). But if we encorporated the design into a tv stand, or ottoman, that would be doable wouldn't it?

And if we decided to go with 12's, which drivers out there offer the most bang (boom) for your buck??

Thanks guys for everything... And if anyone has any ideas how to put 4 12's in one box and make it all work, I am definatly open to suggestions...

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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post #2 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 10:15 PM
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How come nobody ever lists a budget or room size or if they need amps or not and how big the enclosures can be?
There should really be a sticky mandating this info.

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #3 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 11:27 PM
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if that is what he likes, then how about a little spl subwoofer tuned for hip hop?

a 2 cubic foot enclosure, ported to 37hz (4 inch diameter port, 9 inches long), with an alpine 12 swr-1243d will hit 118db at 40-50hz with 500 watts.


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post #4 of 43 Old 08-05-2011, 11:42 PM
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slot port would be better, but it depends on the form factor of your enclosure as to the dimensions.

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post #5 of 43 Old 08-06-2011, 01:11 AM - Thread Starter
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large room, which is why he was leaning towards 4 twelves.
I think he would like to keep it economy budgeted, say less than 750 (guess)
thinking plate amp....

I am sorry I did not list final demensions, but in the tv stand idea was thinking 72"*24*24 ish...

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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post #6 of 43 Old 08-06-2011, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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So what's a good 12 inch driver, for a vented configuration? Not looking for top of the line, more on the level of best price performance ratio....

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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post #7 of 43 Old 08-06-2011, 09:58 PM
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The TC Sounds Epic 12 models well in 3.5cu ft tuned to 22-25hz w 800watts per driver. Should hit 125db+ @25hz and up with 4 of these. Problem may be getting stock on these drivers and they're just a touch over your budget for 4.
Four Dayton HO 12 in 9 cu gets you nearly flat to tuning 23hz with 1800 watts and 120db+ @ 25hz and up.
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post #8 of 43 Old 08-06-2011, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

The TC Sounds Epic 12 models well in 3.5cu ft tuned to 22-25hz w 800watts per driver. Should hit 125db+ @25hz and up with 4 of these. Problem may be getting stock on these drivers and they're just a touch over your budget for 4.
Four Dayton HO 12 in 9 cu gets you nearly flat to tuning 23hz with 1800 watts and 120db+ @ 25hz and up.

I was gonna say TC sounds epic in 4cf dual opposed with one ep4000 running each box. If he paid for Bose he can pay for this. Just have him sell the Bose on craigslist...his yuppy friends will eat it up
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post #9 of 43 Old 08-07-2011, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

I was gonna say TC sounds epic in 4cf dual opposed with one ep4000 running each box. If he paid for Bose he can pay for this. Just have him sell the Bose on craigslist...his yuppy friends will eat it up

Have an EP4000 run two boxes, one channel per sub. Then he'd only need two amps and he'd have more flexibility with placement because none of his subs would need to be by a plug.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #10 of 43 Old 08-07-2011, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Have an EP4000 run two boxes, one channel per sub. Then he'd only need two amps and he'd have more flexibility with placement because none of his subs would need to be by a plug.

I'm trying to maximize power and space, since the ep4000 only gives out 450 watts at 8 ohms per channel. If we use 1 per enclosure we can use 633 watts per speaker by using two sets of binding posts. If you use one ep4000 then you are only sending 225-250 watts per sub. From what I know about TC sounds is that they are power hungry. I'm sure you could use an ep4000 for all 4 tho.
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post #11 of 43 Old 08-07-2011, 09:53 AM
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As for how to do it SVS had a sub that is similar to what you're thinking.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2003.html

Neat design, but a decidedly non-optimal use of four woofers. Much better to separate them and use them to smooth room modes.

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post #12 of 43 Old 08-07-2011, 11:00 AM
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How about 4 of lilmike's Anarchy subs. I know there not 12' buy your fiend can hide them much easier and get decent output.

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post #13 of 43 Old 08-07-2011, 11:19 AM
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Honestly if your friend is coming from Bose...then two TC sounds epics in separate boxes 2cf each and a 500 watt plate amp on each would be the best option for him in terms of SQ, size, power and keeping it simple.
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post #14 of 43 Old 08-07-2011, 01:54 PM
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"So what's a good 12 inch driver"

for hip hop bass, you really want big 40-50hz. the alpine driver that i suggested actually does quite well for that application in the ported enclosure shown. the 6db peak is equal to having 4 drivers instead of one. the driver costs about $125 or so. that is not a driver/enclosure/tuning that i would suggest for just about anything else, but here it seems like the bang for the buck and bang for the size winner.

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post #15 of 43 Old 08-07-2011, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Can you slot port that enclosure you modeled Lt?

I think if I where to build him two of those he would be tickled...

Maybe just combine two boxes into one, and make it an tv stand....

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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post #16 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 01:25 PM
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"Can you slot port that enclosure you modeled Lt?"

you sure can. the dimension of the slot depend on the dimensions of the enclosure.

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post #17 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 02:14 PM
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For hiphop you're gonna want at least a 30Hz tuning, if not lower. Otherwise it'll simply drop off on the lower notes. That's the difference between a system that is just loud, and a system that is bangin'.

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post #18 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 02:35 PM
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"For hiphop you're gonna want at least a 30Hz tuning, if not lower. Otherwise it'll simply drop off on the lower notes."

this isn't right. the bass line in almost all hip hop runs around 40-50hz. 30hz is really, really low for music. bass mechanik type stuff. but i figured that he would want some good rumble for movies once he gets it all hooked up, so i split the difference between a movie subwoofer and an spl subwoofer and created this:



the picture isn't to scale...hey, i mocked it with microsoft word after all. :-)
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post #19 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 02:53 PM
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here is an example of the spectral content of hip hop. in this case, al kapone - the music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBo8KGWxxVE

you can see that the peak energy is right on 40hz, which is typical of this kind of music.


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post #20 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 03:04 PM
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and another, this time eminem - lose yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TADyXC2K0g&feature=fvst

lower end of the bass energy here is around 38hz.


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post #21 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 03:27 PM
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There's a crapload of hiphop with significant energy in the subbass range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
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post #22 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 04:04 PM
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"There's a crapload of hiphop with significant energy in the subbass range."

what are two or three such tracks?

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post #23 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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You did that all in word? You the man.... seriously, thanks for all your help. Could I just.double the size requirements if he still wants 4 drivers?

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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post #24 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02
here is an example of the spectral content of hip hop. in this case, al kapone - the music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBo8KGWxxVE

you can see that the peak energy is right on 40hz, which is typical of this kind of music.
Does this hold true for metal/hard rock? Like tool or avenged sevenfold? I am not trying to derail the thread. I've just been wondering for a while, seems like a good time to ask. If you know off the top of your head cool, thanks
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post #25 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 05:10 PM
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"seriously, thanks for all your help."

no prob. seems like a fun build and i like to see friends help out each other.

"Could I just double the size requirements if he still wants 4 drivers?"

yes, kind of. one cab with the port on the right and another mirror image cab with the port on the left. for one big enclosure, just sandwich them.
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post #26 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 05:15 PM
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"Does this hold true for metal/hard rock?"

NO! that is a mistake many folks have made including me. for that kind of music you need much wider bandwidth. you need high spl up to at least 350hz. this means good subs but also insanely good mains.

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post #27 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02
"Does this hold true for metal/hard rock?"

NO! that is a mistake many folks have made including me. for that kind of music you need much wider bandwidth. you need high spl up to at least 350hz. this means good subs but also insanely good mains.
Wasn't expecting that! I now have another avenue to research/obsess. Thanks for the quick answer - Tank
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post #28 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 05:28 PM
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love her or hate her, joan jett rocks. not just for a girl, but for a rocker period. here is 'i love rock n roll'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdDl7MSFYuQ

you can see while bass power does not extend much below 40hz, the power of the sound extends easily up to 350hz, which is way out of the subwoofer region.

this is very different from hip hop type music. for kick arse rock, you need high spl to at least 350hz or so (so the guitars rip through you), which means using the big 'ole mains that one might find from jbl, klipsch, tannoy, in the 1970's!


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post #29 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 05:30 PM
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just a footnote: the green line is peak spl, the red line is average sound power.

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post #30 of 43 Old 08-08-2011, 05:41 PM
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and metallica - sandman for another data point...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY3LAFJbKyY

sound power very important up to at least ~350hz or so...


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