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post #61 of 79 Old 09-16-2011, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blindbug View Post

The bracing in these things looks great! Wish I had a workshop to pull something like this off... actually, I wish I had the woodworking skills to pull this off!

I'm with you here! I have NO wood working skills as of yet. I will one day try my hand at building a simple subwoofer and see how it turns out.

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That's what I used to think, but doing a decent job even with little expertise isn't has hard as you would think!

Great looking speakers DB ... did Nathan provide any sweeps without the 90hz pass? Curious how these drivers perform beyond 100hz?

Thanks! No he didn't. I'll take a sweep the best I can for now and see what they can do above 100hz. I think I'm going to buy the Behringer ECM8000 and a preamp to take measurements. I want something more accurate than my dinky SPL meter.

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post #62 of 79 Old 09-16-2011, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

I think I'm going to buy the Behringer ECM8000 and a preamp to take measurements. I want something more accurate than my dinky SPL meter.

I would get the Dayton EMM-6 over the Behringer.
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post #63 of 79 Old 09-16-2011, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

I would get the Dayton EMM-6 over the Behringer.

Interesting. Because of the price, accuracy, bandwidth, or something else?

Edit: Scratch the price part. They seem to be about the same price.

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post #64 of 79 Old 09-16-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Interesting. Because of the price, accuracy, bandwidth, or something else?

Accuracy.

WMAX had this to say:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...68&postcount=5
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post #65 of 79 Old 09-16-2011, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Accuracy.

WMAX had this to say:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...68&postcount=5

Ok. I'll look into both and weigh the options. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention.

David Budo
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post #66 of 79 Old 09-16-2011, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Ok. I'll look into both and weigh the options. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention.

Herb at Cross-Spectrum has confirmed P-E's included mic specific calibration file for the EMM-6 is accurate for on axis duty if you're only measuring 20-20K. Of course, he'll gladly provide you with 5-25K and 45°/90° calibrations for an additional fee. Since you're specifically interested in measuring your subs, you might want to research how much typical correction the EMM-6 needs below 20Hz in making your decision...I don't remember off the top of my head. The 90° curve is pretty much a necessity if you want see what Audyssey/YPAO/MCACC is doing in your room, IMO.

The Behringer doesn't include any calibration data. A little Google-fu should turn up pages overlaying multiple ECM8000 measurements samples. Their (lack of) consistency should convince you not to trust the generic calibration files available online.

-Brent
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post #67 of 79 Old 09-17-2011, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

Herb at Cross-Spectrum has confirmed P-E's included mic specific calibration file for the EMM-6 is accurate for on axis duty if you're only measuring 20-20K. Of course, he'll gladly provide you with 5-25K and 45°/90° calibrations for an additional fee. Since you're specifically interested in measuring your subs, you might want to research how much typical correction the EMM-6 needs below 20Hz in making your decision...I don't remember off the top of my head. The 90° curve is pretty much a necessity if you want see what Audyssey/YPAO/MCACC is doing in your room, IMO.

The Behringer doesn't include any calibration data. A little Google-fu should turn up pages overlaying multiple ECM8000 measurements samples. Their (lack of) consistency should convince you not to trust the generic calibration files available online.

-Brent

Thanks for the info! That, combined with 2 other recommendations has made me choose the Dayton over the Behringer. I'm also going to get the M-Audio Mobile Pre. Then, if need be, I'll get a Mini DSP.

David Budo
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post #68 of 79 Old 09-17-2011, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Accuracy.

WMAX had this to say:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...68&postcount=5

A calibrated ECM 8000 is just as accurate. Wmax, opinion not with standing because any product can fail. I have the calibrated ECM 8000 and have used it for many years now without issue (so have 100s of other DIYers).

Granted, the Dayton EMM-6 is fine too and a cheaper choice.

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Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

The Behringer doesn't include any calibration data. A little Google-fu should turn up pages overlaying multiple ECM8000 measurements samples. Their (lack of) consistency should convince you not to trust the generic calibration files available online.

-Brent


FWIW, no one is buying an uncalibrated ECM-8000 mic so there should not even be a discussion about generic calibration files. There is definitely an assumption that when purchasing any Mic that there is a professional calibration that comes with it.

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post #69 of 79 Old 09-17-2011, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

A calibrated ECM 8000 is just as accurate. Wmax, opinion not with standing because any product can fail. I have the calibrated ECM 8000 and have used it for many years now without issue (so have 100s of other DIYers).

Granted, the Dayton EMM-6 is fine too and a cheaper choice.




FWIW, no one is buying an uncalibrated ECM-8000 mic so there should not even be a discussion about generic calibration files. There is definitely an assumption that when purchasing any Mic that there is a professional calibration that comes with it.

Ok, now I'm confused. Does the ECM8000 come calibrated if I buy it from a store. The reason I ask is that there's a store really close to my place selling them and I'd be able to pick it up ASAP, without having to deal with any shipping. It would be around $62 with taxes. Is that worth it, or should I get the Dayton for $46 from PE plus shipping?

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post #70 of 79 Old 09-17-2011, 07:39 AM
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You can buy a non-calibrated ECM8000 but that isnt really needed. You need to search to find a source for ECM8000 calibrated mics. There are a couple of popular ones, I just don't have the links.

Anyways, from previous discussions just get the EMM-6 for $46 from PE. There is absolutely nothing you are going to be doing that requires this much discussion or thought over either choices so pick the lower cost solution.

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post #71 of 79 Old 09-17-2011, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

A calibrated ECM 8000 is just as accurate.

Key word calibrated. The dayton mic comes at the very least with a parts express calibration file. Albeit not down to 5hz.

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Wmax, opinion not with standing because any product can fail.


You must have misread that party of his post, that's exactly what he was saying. He used to be a big advocate of the behringer mics.

Quote:


There is definitely an assumption that when purchasing any Mic that there is a professional calibration that comes with it.

I was under the impression OP was looking at an uncalibrated ECM8000, hence why I recommend the dayton mic. I'm sure a calibrated unit would be a great choice, especially if accuracy down to 5hz is necessary, but I don't know if I really would pay the extra cost for measuring infrasonics beyond "there" and "not there"
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post #72 of 79 Old 09-17-2011, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You can buy a non-calibrated ECM8000 but that isnt really needed. You need to search to find a source for ECM8000 calibrated mics. There are a couple of popular ones, I just don't have the links.

Anyways, from previous discussions just get the EMM-6 for $46 from PE. There is absolutely nothing you are going to be doing that requires this much discussion or thought over either choices so pick the lower cost solution.

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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Key word calibrated. The dayton mic comes at the very least with a parts express calibration file. Albeit not down to 5hz.

You must have misread that party of his post, that's exactly what he was saying. He used to be a big advocate of the behringer mics.

I was under the impression OP was looking at an uncalibrated ECM8000, hence why I recommend the dayton mic. I'm sure a calibrated unit would be a great choice, especially if accuracy down to 5hz is necessary, but I don't know if I really would pay the extra cost for measuring infrasonics beyond "there" and "not there"

Alright, EMM-6 it is! Thanks a bunch guys. I really only need accurate measurements down to 20hz for now. I'll get another mic as soon as I get my dual opposed 18" subs when we move. Then I'll need a mic that's accurate below 10hz.

David Budo
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post #73 of 79 Old 09-17-2011, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Alright, EMM-6 it is! Thanks a bunch guys. I really only need accurate measurements down to 20hz for now. I'll get another mic as soon as I get my dual opposed 18" subs when we move. Then I'll need a mic that's accurate below 10hz.

No reason to buy another mic later, unless you're looking to upgrade to Earthworks or B&K quality. Herb (Cross Spectrum), or any other calibration service, can do an extended calibration on pretty much any mic. Herb has just taken the step of stocking EMM-6 and ECM8000 mics so that he can ship them out with various levels of extended calibration instead of someone first having to buy from vendor A, ship it to him, and then ship it back. So, if you prefer not to pay the extra $40-50 now for an extended calibration services, you can ship out your EMM-6/ECM8000 in the future and get an extended cal done...albeit by spending slightly more than if you'd simply purchased the mic w/cal together in the first place.

-Brent
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post #74 of 79 Old 09-19-2011, 03:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

No reason to buy another mic later, unless you're looking to upgrade to Earthworks or B&K quality. Herb (Cross Spectrum), or any other calibration service, can do an extended calibration on pretty much any mic. Herb has just taken the step of stocking EMM-6 and ECM8000 mics so that he can ship them out with various levels of extended calibration instead of someone first having to buy from vendor A, ship it to him, and then ship it back. So, if you prefer not to pay the extra $40-50 now for an extended calibration services, you can ship out your EMM-6/ECM8000 in the future and get an extended cal done...albeit by spending slightly more than if you'd simply purchased the mic w/cal together in the first place.

-Brent

Thanks for the info. So you're saying Herb, someone I'm learning about for the first time, is buying units, calibrating them and selling them? I will move up to a higher quality mic in the future that can measure below 10hz.

David Budo
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post #75 of 79 Old 09-19-2011, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Thanks for the info. So you're saying Herb, someone I'm learning about for the first time, is buying units, calibrating them and selling them? I will move up to a higher quality mic in the future that can measure below 10hz.

As I stated earlier, Herb is Cross-Spectrum Labs. He also goes by "anechoic" here, HTGuide, TechTalk, and HTS...probably other places as well.

To summarize the most popular options again.

DIY a Panasonic capsule based mic: Needs calibration if you want absolute response numbers. Otherwise, like an RS SPL meter, it can still be used to show before/after changes simply by analyzing relative changes. Accuracy for subwoofer measurements down to 20Hz is probably pretty good without a cal, but the capsules are subject to some manufacturing variability and the user's ability to build/provide a suitable preamp will also be a factor.

ECM8000: Available from any number of vendors. Doesn't include a calibration file. Generic cal files are available on the internet, but of questionable value since a number of folks have compiled enough data to show a decent amount of unit to unit variation.

EMM-6: P-E includes a 20-20kHz on axis (0°) cal file unique to each mic, S/N traceable. Herb, and likely other cal services, will provide more data points (higher resolution) across that range. After doing hundreds of these mics, Herb has recommended the P-E cal file as good enough if you only want to measure on axis from 20-20kHz. IIRC, the biggest variation is usually in the 12-15kHz area, where Herb's extra resolution will provide more accuracy and a smoother curve.

Purchase a calibrated ECM8000/EMM-6: Herb/Cross-Spectrum will sell you either and has options for different levels of calibration. I linked you to his EMM-6 page in an earlier post. Penn suggested there are other retailers selling calibrated ECM8000s, but I'm not aware of who he's referring to. Herb's cheapest cal option is on axis from 5-25Khz. He also has options for 45°/90° axis, polar response, and sensitivity. Full boat cal for an EMM-6 is $99 to a US address; the ECM8000 runs about $10 more. He will ship internationally.

Buy the mic of your choice from the vendor of your choice and send it out for calibration. Cross-Spectrum and Kim Giardin (sp?) are probably the most well known to the DIY community. Google should turn up others.

-Brent
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post #76 of 79 Old 09-19-2011, 03:32 PM
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^nice, informative post. Thanks
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post #77 of 79 Old 09-20-2011, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post

As I stated earlier, Herb is Cross-Spectrum Labs. He also goes by "anechoic" here, HTGuide, TechTalk, and HTS...probably other places as well.

To summarize the most popular options again.

DIY a Panasonic capsule based mic: Needs calibration if you want absolute response numbers. Otherwise, like an RS SPL meter, it can still be used to show before/after changes simply by analyzing relative changes. Accuracy for subwoofer measurements down to 20Hz is probably pretty good without a cal, but the capsules are subject to some manufacturing variability and the user's ability to build/provide a suitable preamp will also be a factor.

ECM8000: Available from any number of vendors. Doesn't include a calibration file. Generic cal files are available on the internet, but of questionable value since a number of folks have compiled enough data to show a decent amount of unit to unit variation.

EMM-6: P-E includes a 20-20kHz on axis (0°) cal file unique to each mic, S/N traceable. Herb, and likely other cal services, will provide more data points (higher resolution) across that range. After doing hundreds of these mics, Herb has recommended the P-E cal file as good enough if you only want to measure on axis from 20-20kHz. IIRC, the biggest variation is usually in the 12-15kHz area, where Herb's extra resolution will provide more accuracy and a smoother curve.

Purchase a calibrated ECM8000/EMM-6: Herb/Cross-Spectrum will sell you either and has options for different levels of calibration. I linked you to his EMM-6 page in an earlier post. Penn suggested there are other retailers selling calibrated ECM8000s, but I'm not aware of who he's referring to. Herb's cheapest cal option is on axis from 5-25Khz. He also has options for 45°/90° axis, polar response, and sensitivity. Full boat cal for an EMM-6 is $99 to a US address; the ECM8000 runs about $10 more. He will ship internationally.

Buy the mic of your choice from the vendor of your choice and send it out for calibration. Cross-Spectrum and Kim Giardin (sp?) are probably the most well known to the DIY community. Google should turn up others.

-Brent

Fantastic post! Thank you very much Brent. Well, I'm going to purchase the calibrated ECM8000 from them. That's pretty much the max I wanted to spend right now, and I'll get the most out of the product that way. I also want to see how my Triple 8HT's measure in my room.

David Budo
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post #78 of 79 Old 01-26-2013, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Well it has been a year and a half with these subs and I really love them. Very tight sound with clear definition of both the lower and upper frequencies. I'll probably never get rid of them. Most likely I'll get a JTR Cap S2 and place these around the room to tame room modes once I move. So many crazy things have happened over the last couple years, but life only gets better and better for me. smile.gif

By the way, Nathan was right on the driver excursion being greater than the rated specs. I watched the drivers during Tron: Legacy where the carriers lift off and they easily traveled 20mm at least, which is much more than the rated 12.5mm xmax. And there wasn't any odd noises or anything strained sounding. I didn't get around to getting the measurement equipment. The do play well over 140hz. I just don't know how high they go.

David Budo
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post #79 of 79 Old 01-26-2013, 06:58 PM
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Good to hear. Keep enjoying them. smile.gif
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