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post #1 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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This is my frist post.
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post #2 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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This my second post.
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post #3 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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This is my third post so now I should be able to get on with it:
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post #4 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello All!

I'm new here so allow me to introduce myself:

My name is Art and I am involved in a few aspects of the music business; primarily as a luthier. I also work for a music festival. Our show happens early August, caters to about 10,000 guests and has 5 concurrently running stages featuring predominantly electronic music. The stage I represent is considerably more varied as we run the gambit from single DJ's right up to 11 piece bands with horns -even a a group of acoustic marimba players this year.

One of the unique things about this event is the fact that it's held on private property and because of this, our stages are permanent installations built from steel, concrete and heavy gauge timbers. This coming year my stage director is planning a major renovation. Allow me to present our current stage:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6654222...7627562724812/

The amphitheater and stage were built in 2005 as was the main roof, which has grown and evolved over the years. The shot with the system on it is the rig we ran this year. That wall of sound contains 8 Labs and 12 shop-built Martin WSX clones. (the two SBT's were not actually in use). The stage itself is 17 feet from the front poles to the back; 12 feet of which I think will be useable for what I am about to propose. It's currently just over a meter high an will probably be raised a bit. For argument's sake let's say the useable depth for volume is 1 meter. Now the really clever out there already know where I'm going with this: HORNS IN THE FLOOR!!

We've dreamt for years of a stage with no visible bass. Since we're going to redo the floor and foundation, why not get SERIOUSLY purpose specific! I've been tasked with the initial feasibility study and cost analysis. To do this I need to work through a significant portion of the design to get an accurate handle on component costs.

As far as horn construction goes, there is one overriding issue for any design: Flooding. Every year the pit spends at least a month under water (often right up to the stage floor). For this reason, concrete and quite possibly bricks and mortar will be the materials of choice. As far as stability and performance go I can't think of a better material; flooding or not. Many of you have already seen this:

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.ht...20TOTAL%20HORN

I want to do that on a larger scale. With MORE horns... (My dream would be to have a TRW-17 fan unit(s) in a large center cavity -but that's at least $20k)

So there's my project, in a nutshell...

I'm here for as much input as I can get! Considering how massive, unique and just down right potentially cool this project is, I want to involve as many minds as possible. If speaker-builder forums are anything like the guitar-builder forums I frequent, then I know there's an unlimited resource of passionate, opinionated and brilliant minds out there that just love to geek out on this kinda stuff...
At the moment I'm reading everything I can get my hands on and would GREATLY appreciate any recommendations. I'm also trying to scrounge up an old PC to learn hornresp and whatever other apps I can find. Again any recommendations or help in this direction would awesome (are there any mac platform simulators out there?) Beyond my own education, I'm looking for ideas! Open your minds and engage that lateral thinking. There's no limitations due to cabinet size here so go crazy! We can zig-zag in any direction, run horizontally across the stage... This is dance music so the lower the better -I'm thinking at least a mid-bass and bass design with a possibility of adding the fan unit to get right down to 5Hz. Where I REALLY need the help is with the industry 'shorthand'; my theoretical knowledge is growing rapidly so I'm looking for real world experience: Driver recommendations, crossover/protection and such -reading ad copy is one thing, but what are you actually using out there in the field? Also design ideas: Bigger horns with bigger/multiple drivers or smaller horns and more of them? These are the opinions I'm after.

I've been looking at every horn design I can find, thinking of what would be the most efficient use of space. I was initially thinking of designing a pair of front loaded horns that could be nested in pairs (think yin-yan or pisces). Most recently I've been considering a tapped horn with a single fold; much like this design, but without the bend at the mouth (the mouth would just flare past the driver).

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/149697.aspx

The idea would be to orient these on their side, mouth to the front of the stage with access panels to the driver(s) for insertion/removal and at the bend for cleaning. (Any sediment deposited by the water will need to be hosed out).. One could fit a lot of these under that floor!


art...
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post #5 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 11:13 AM
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I'm confused. Do you want a typical horn build or do you want a 1/4 acre sized concrete built horn?

If just looking to add some horns, check out the Lab Horn:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/61...woofer-project

Or Wayne Parham's Pi 12 if you have more room and want cleaner output.

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #6 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 12:47 PM
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What I gathered from reading all that is he is trying to make the front of a current stage into a bunch of customized horn subs made primarily from brick.
So I guess we need to know what low frequency response he is looking for, what drivers he wants to use and how much area and dimensions he is looking for for each horn before we could even guess at it.
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post #7 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 12:51 PM
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What's your budget?

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post #8 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 02:16 PM
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I'll echo CZ and say a quad or octet of LABhorns or 12pi.

Problem solved. Next?
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post #9 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 02:28 PM
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Why would you want fan subs for music?

Also, you know they don't work outside, right?
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post #10 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Why would you want fan subs for music?

Also, you know they don't work outside, right?
Thats exactly what I was thinking. They only pressurize enclosures.
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post #11 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Let's try this again...

The stage is being renovated. -This means we'll have a large foundation to build.

This foundation could be mostly open space. We want to make use of this open space by using cementitious materials to construct Sub horns. Like this:

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm

or this:




We want to build the LF into the stage. We can make use of the full depth and width of this area.

Think of this design; but lying flat, built into the foundation (the mouth would be straight, not bent 90 degrees):

http://www.volvotreter.de/pics/TH/th_v1.jpg

Now picture a row of these along the width of the stage, exiting out the front... (they can be as deep as the stage and run all the way to the rear)


@blackoper We want to Eq down to 30Hz. As for individual horn dimensions here's what I said in the original post:
" Where I REALLY need the help is with the industry 'shorthand'; my theoretical knowledge is growing rapidly so I'm looking for real world experience: Driver recommendations, crossover/protection and such -reading ad copy is one thing, but what are you actually using out there in the field? Also design ideas: Bigger horns with bigger/multiple drivers or smaller horns and more of them? These are the opinions I'm after."

This is what I asking: If you were going to build your ultimate horn, where box size and weight wasn't an issue, where you could be free to use any driver you want and mate it to whatever horn design you want where would you start? Single and big, like the posts above? Multiple smaller horns?

@Mbentz Budget! good question and very dependent on the quality of my proposal! Minimum of 10K the first year with future additions. This could mean adding a few horns per year (going with a modular construction), building them all initially then loading components in stages That's what this feasibility study is all about.
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post #12 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I'm html challenged the second link should be::


http://s128.photobucket.com/albums/p...borg/ravehorn/
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post #13 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 03:07 PM
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OK, I missed that you already had the LABs, but what you need to consider is that there have probably been a half dozen such projects ever executed. So almost no one has the experience of designing or building them. You will need to start from scratch and design it with Horn resp either as a single horn or stacked multiples depending upon the architect's structural rquirements and how you actually need to build it.

I would suggest starting with all the parameters you can for the ravehorn you linked, sim that and use it as a baseline to develop from there. You'll also need to define far more of the parameters of the design than you have laid out so far such as the expected Fl and the SPL expectations.

Once you have a design you like, then you get the fun job of folding it to fit into the required volume and ensuring that you can acces the drivers for maintenance.
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post #14 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artavox View Post
Budget! good question and very dependent on the quality of my proposal! Minimum of 10K the first year with future additions. This could mean adding a few horns per year (going with a modular construction), building them all initially then loading components in stages That's what this feasibility study is all about.
I would recommend pouring all the concrete at the beginning when you build the stage, and then just make the driver injection points modular...the physics of horns aren't going to change and it's not going to cost extra to pour everything at the same time.

It sounds like the drivers need to be modular anyway due to the flooding and cleaning issues.

I'd be more than willing to help you on this project, but I'm not a big fan of design by committee. The elegance in the engineering tradeoffs usually gets lost in those situations.

Btw, you would get a lot further if you posted dimensions of the stage.

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post #15 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Why would you want fan subs for music?

Also, you know they don't work outside, right?
Of course they do; why do you think otherwise?

Noah
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post #16 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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The rough dimensions, as previously mentioned are a working depth of about a meter (call it 40" for simplicity) a front to back length of 12 feet. I gapped on the width; if we call it 25', things should fit easily.

Mike, I'd love your input. I'll get some more specific info together and send you a message.

SPL expectations? I'd have to see if anybody was measuring but imagine 8 LAB's plus 10 Martin WSX's being Pushed. The village stage, run by PK Sound, had 21 of these in a space for about out 2000 bodies:

PK-CX800.pdf
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post #17 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 05:20 PM
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a horn design is possible. a big horn design is possible. a horn design that works underwater is possible, but would be tricky. did i read that right, the horn will actually be underwater for a month or so each year?

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post #18 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 06:13 PM
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My 0.02... Start by contacting those few folks who have tried this kind of thing before, to get their input. I would be tempted to redesign the stage so it is about 4 feet higher than it is now. That will give you enough height to install drainage channels around the perimeter to prevent flooding of the sub channels. The horns can then be built above ground level using cinder block (assuming you aren't planning on using poured concrete).
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post #19 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

a horn design is possible. a big horn design is possible. a horn design that works underwater is possible, but would be tricky. did i read that right, the horn will actually be underwater for a month or so each year?

It's underwater during spring flood but is dry when in use.
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post #20 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 07:14 PM
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are you planning to remove the drivers or hoping for something that can survive underwater?

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post #21 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 10:38 PM
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So in metric ... 1m high x 3.6m deep x 7.5m wide.

Are you going to take the drivers out when not in use? You could install them so that they are on baffles that can be lifted out. That could save a lot of work in setting up some kind of drainage system to avoid flooding.

Do you have an SPL target? ie 110 db @ 30m @ 30 Hz? A target helps. Also consider how high up it needs to go. Many of the solutions can be limited in their top end. 80 Hz? 120 Hz?

Have you seen the Danley Matterhorn? It uses 40 large sub drivers and was made for military applications - 40 kw of power and it's a tapped horn in a shipping container. It had to hit a certain target at some distance.

I haven't built something like this, very few could say that they have. But what I would be doing is designing for your LF cutoff, putting in a high pass at that point. Then when it comes to the final built version do some tests, one of them being sending a very low signal, turning it up and making sure that your filtering is doing what is needed. If you get it right then your amps will reach their limits but the drivers will never reach their mechanical excursion limits. One challenge with a project like this is being able to build a test box before laying bricks.

So how about some targets and some info?

1. Extension - 30 Hz?
2. Availalable amp power? Using current amps?
3. Can the drivers be removed when not in use?
4. Output target at what distance?
5. Upper extension desired
6. Are you willing to build prototypes first?

In terms of the overall approach, there's a stack of ways you could do it. First that comes to mind is build a front loaded horn where the entire front area is the mouth. It has that "extreme project appeal" and perhaps even novelty. Also you might end up with a pit with some removeable baffles like the Royal Devices. Easy to remove the drivers. Prototypes are hard to do, and expensive due to size. Also doesn't quite suit the modular approach, unless you make some kind of allowance for more drivers being added.

The opposite approach is simply a modular one. You make a lot of horns, front loaded, tapped or both. You don't have to build a giant horn to find out how well it performs. Doesn't have the extreme appeal, but in many ways it's practical. The flood issue isn't a strong point, because you either have to eliminate the flooding or install the horns again each time they are used. You could rig up a hoist to lift them up onto the stage.

I did a quick sim of a horn with a mouth 1 x 7.5m with B&C TBX100, a pro 18" driver $294. 1kw input. You get 137 db down to 30 Hz, it's nice and flat and extended in response and with the right high pass, excursion no problem. It takes up less than a third of the space under the stage. One driver. To meet output targets you could add more drivers. One way to do it could be to first work out what you need with one giant horn like this, then break it down into smaller modules. So let's say you plan to do 8 drivers. You work out the design with one horn with the 8 drivers. Then build a prototype with just one driver, keep the length the same but scale down the mouth and throat to 1/8 size. Now you have something you can build to test it out. You build it, measure it, and see how close it is to the sims. Then if happy you can either build the 8 smaller versions, or just build one giant version.

With this much space to play with, I would probably go with the giant single horn and lots of drivers on baffles that can be removed. Then you just have a hatch to access them. One person can remove a baffle with 4 x 18" drivers easily and not much space is required to store them.

Some quick numbers. 8 of the above with 1kw to each driver hits 147 db and goes down to 30 Hz. This is at one metre of course.

147 db @ 1m
141 - 2m
135 - 4
129 - 8
123 - 16
117 - 32
111 dB @ 64m

less 5db (power compression)
half space max output down to 30 Hz with 8 x 18" drivers, $2.4k driver cost, 8kw of power

The nice thing about a very large FLH like this is that the response is smooth and extended. At 300 Hz it's still nice and smooth. With a tapped horn you get big sharp peaks most of the time at the top end which can limit how high they can run. Here you have some nice flexibility.
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post #22 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 10:47 PM
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post #23 of 32 Old 08-31-2011, 11:17 PM
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So what happens if you want to get the same result with tapped horns? Same driver?

Here is just one:





Build 16 of them and you get the same output and extension and they both take up the same volume. The front horn needs 16kw into 8 drivers and the tapped horn needs 4.8kw into 60 drivers. You might get a bit more out of the tapped horns because each driver only sees 300w, while the front horn has 2kw into each. Power compression puts the tapped horns out in front by perhaps 3 db, but if it were me, I think I'd prefer to build one huge horn with bricks than 16 large boxes, each big enough to be hard to work on due to their weight. With bricks, you lift just one at a time.

Those might not be optimal, and probably not the best shot at it. But it's a good driver, easy to get, good price and does illustrate some choices. Bang for buck is there. If you change the driver to AE TD18H then the output goes up to nearly 150 db for the FLH and power compression is probably better. It's extra excursion comes in handy with a TH and with some sacrifice to extension it almost hits 130 db.
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post #24 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 12:45 AM
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mmd should be closer to 314 vs. 3.14...actually 186 is what i calc.

also, watch your watts. be sure to enter re of the driver for 1w.

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post #25 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 01:43 AM
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I was wondering if anyone would pick that - good catch. Fixed it but it doesn't seem to be critical.
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post #26 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 01:46 AM
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i was monkeying around with a conical offset design, but i'm not sure if the hornresp model is actually modeling the design. perhaps somebody could check this.

there is a minor error in that lrc is obviously too short, but don't focus on that. i'm interested to know if the offset driver schematic matches the drawing in the first image for general configuration.

it is a top view of the stage. drivers are stacked 2 high, so 8 total. 1/2 of vrc on each side.
LL
LL
LL

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post #27 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 01:47 AM
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as that gives this freq resp
LL

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post #28 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 03:33 AM
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or this one? is s1 measured in between the drivers?
LL
LL
LL

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post #29 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 03:34 AM
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which gives this freq resp.
LL

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post #30 of 32 Old 02-02-2013, 01:28 PM
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@Artavox -

I'm curious why you don't stick with something from PK. I went to the Excision show in Portland last night, and the PK Sound rig was as good as I've ever heard. And I've been to a LOT of electronic shows. (I'm not your typical attendee at these things - I'm 42yrs old and have been going to events since they first started popping up in LA in the early 90s, back when i was in college.)

I love horns, have built a ton of them, but horns have no fundamental advantage at ultra low frequency. (Basically a back loaded horn behaves like a sealed box as it gets closer and closer to it's F3.)

As I see it, the PK Sound solution offers the following advantages:

1) It's proven. If there is a better option for dubstep shows, I'm not aware of it.
2) I don't know what the CX 800s cost, but based on the technology, I can't imagine it's a lot. (IE, it's not an uber complex box. It's a pair of 18Sound18s with a gigantic class D plate amp.)
3) Considering the output levels, the CX 800 is pretty darn small.


If I were in your situation, the only reason that I'd opt for a tapped or front loaded horn is if you want to do something 'different.' IE, horns definitely *sound* different, and your audience might appreciate a stage that sound different at Shambhala.

But I really have a hard time making that argument; I don't think people are that discerning at these events. They DO appreciate LOUD and the CX800 delivers that.


Also, one downside to horns is they don't deliver that massive 'pressure wave' you get from the CX800. For instance, a the Portland show last night the CX 800s were practically pushing the air out of my lungs. A big part of that 'effect' is simply the high displacement of the woofers. Sixteen 18" woofers can move a lot of air; but if you build a HORN with that many woofers, the horn is going to be the size of a small apartment.

Of course, you might have that much space to play with; Shambhala is a big festival after all. If you DO have that type of space, I will gladly buy a ticket and fly to your show!
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