Lilmike's Cinema T-6 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 192 Old 09-02-2011, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the T-6.



This is a ~6 cubic-foot tapped horn that can use 8" or 10" drivers. It provides solid performance to 30 Hz. Not much below that - I chose small and loud, so I had to give up low. No bracing, no fancy cuts, and it is quick to build.

As built, mine are 23 7/8" wide, 35 7/8" long, 12 3/4" deep. The design is very flexible - you can run the mouth out the side, like mine, out the end, like the Insubnia, or out the bottom, whatever best suits your placement. The cabinet can be made thinner and use smaller drivers (The Exodus Anarchy works well, as does the Tang Band W6-1139SI).

Here is the 1W 1M groundplane compared to the model:



And - per Bosso - here is a "proper" compression plot measured at 1M groundplane, at 1, 4, 16, 64, and 128 watts.



Mine are built with Tang Band W8-740C drivers, because I had some. The Apex Junior Super 8 also works well, as do a number of other drivers. I'll start that list in the next post.

I've attached a set of instructions, a cutlist, the sketchup files, and a pair of models, one with an 8, one with a 10.

Yes, this looks like the tapped Insubnia. I decided there was too much wood left over after cutting the parts for one of those, and wanted to see how much sub I could get out of a single sheet of 1/2" plywood. So - I made a sub as large as I could and still have it all cut out of a single sheet.

It turned out pretty good. I am currently listening to a pair, loaded with 8s, and I really don't find them to be lacking. I'd have used 10s if I had them, but as I have a number of 8s, buying more drivers was not an option. As it is - I am able to exceed 115 dB at the couch above 30 Hz with the pair.

I strongly suggest running a highpass between 25 and 30 Hz with these. The Tang Bands are at their limits at ~128 watts, and made some noises before that during sine-wave sweeps. I've not noticed any complaints during movies or music though, and I have run them plenty loud.

A good 10 (TC Epic, Kicker CompVX, or similar) will add 6 dBs to what the W8-740s can manage.

Edit 11-1-2011 Added "tarted" version, fixed errors in cutlists.

 

Cinema T-6 Instructions.doc 446k . file

 

Updated T-6 Cutlists.zip 12.154296875k . file

 

T-6 Sketchup.zip 86.9599609375k . file

 

t-6 models.zip 0.75390625k . file

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post #2 of 192 Old 09-02-2011, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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This post will serve as the list of drivers that are known to work in the T-6.


Drivers that have been actually tested and verified:
Tang Band W8-740C 11.75" internal width (This thread)
Apex Junior Super 8 11.75" internal width

Suggested drivers based on modeling follow (in no particular order):

8s:
Dayton Classic 8
Tang Band W8-740C
Apex Junior Super 8

10s:
Kicker 2010 Comp VX 104 (Dual 4)
Kicker SoloClassic 10 (Dual 2)
Alpine Type R 10 SWR1043 (make the cabinet 10-5/8" wide internally)
TC Sounds Epic 10
JBL GTO1014 (make the cabinet 10-5/8" wide internally)
Fi X-10
SSA DCON-10
Dayton Classic 10 DCS255 (100 watts)
Sundown Audio E-10 (Dual 2) - full width

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post #3 of 192 Old 09-02-2011, 08:52 PM
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I've been waiting for this! Awesome stuff as usual.
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post #4 of 192 Old 09-02-2011, 10:19 PM
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Great work again! How would something like the GTO804 do in this box?
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post #5 of 192 Old 09-02-2011, 11:58 PM
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i like how you employ the different expansion rates in order to smooth response.

something about the fold appears to have brought a little bit of the upper bass swing back.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #6 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 04:11 AM
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And here it is...

I will have to build one of these "official" T6's to compare to the early model I built with my daughter. Thanks for that Mike.

They sound awesome. And no, I don't really miss the lower freq's much even when I have something on that I know has great bass. They have been fun with music. So I will have to give another one a go and see if there is much reason to change them out. Perhaps the prototype can go to my kids room for use with their kiddie theater.

If you are tight on space this is a great sub.
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post #7 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 04:19 AM
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Mike, I like the way you've gone to the trouble of documenting it so that others can just build it as well. Great work!

One thing that would be interesting to see, is one of these against the same driver in say a sealed or vented box, max SPL.

Also interesting to note that the sim worked pretty well. How did you get your sim into REW?


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post #8 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 05:59 AM
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Lilmike subs rule.
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post #9 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zora View Post

Great work again! How would something like the GTO804 do in this box?

The GTO 804 has a little bit too much motor for this cabinet, so the response is very peaky.

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post #10 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulspencer View Post

Mike, I like the way you've gone to the trouble of documenting it so that others can just build it as well. Great work!

One thing that would be interesting to see, is one of these against the same driver in say a sealed or vented box, max SPL.

Also interesting to note that the sim worked pretty well. How did you get your sim into REW?

Regarding the comparisons:

The W8-740 is an 84 dB driver at a watt per Tang Band's specifications. A sealed or vented box with the driver as a direct radiator will produce that 84 dB with a watt, provided the cabinet loading allows it.

The T-6 makes ~92 dB at that same watt in above 30 Hz. That's an increase of 8 dB, which is pretty significant. When I model the driver in a ported cabinet with a 30 Hz tune, I get about 86 dB at a watt, and the driver reaches excursion limits/thermal limits at 128 watts, same as in the T-6, which yields about 108 dB at a meter.

When I was pushing things, I've measured peak SPLs of 117 dB 1M groundplane at ~25% THD from one T-6 loaded with the W8-740C. Though I was definitely into power compression at this point, the driver was not complaining.

For plotting, I export the SPL from HornResp, then import it into REW.

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post #11 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Flanery View Post

And here it is...

I will have to build one of these "official" T6's to compare to the early model I built with my daughter. Thanks for that Mike.

They sound awesome. And no, I don't really miss the lower freq's much even when I have something on that I know has great bass. They have been fun with music. So I will have to give another one a go and see if there is much reason to change them out. Perhaps the prototype can go to my kids room for use with their kiddie theater.

If you are tight on space this is a great sub.


If I recall - you got the "fixed" plans, so there should not be any differences between what you built and what I've posted, other than the options for a side mouth and 10" driver.

Seriously - two T-6s more than replaced my Shiva tapped horn. They get a few dB louder and play much cleaner (cause I really did not design the Shiva cabinet correctly...that's what's next on my list....). Sure, they leave the 15 to 25 Hz range on the table, they're 8s, something had to give. They do the rest well enough to where I really don't miss it. Of course - my room response is considerably flatter with a pair of subs in the right places, that has helped a lot too.

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post #12 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 04:27 PM
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Solid work again, Mike. This one fills a good niche. Working on any new 'F' models? I have a 30Hz one that may be in the works...

JSS
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post #13 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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No more "F"s, only "T"s.

Next on deck is a proper tapped horn for the Shiva, and other drivers like it, cause we might not see any more Shivas. After that - probably a proper 15" home theater tapped horn. I have an idea or three I want to try with the 12" version. If any of them work, I'll probably incorporate something similar into the 15" version. If not - I know how to revise plans..... At least plywood is not too expensive.

I've had my T-6s done for a while, just did not get the documentation done till yesterday. I've been listening to the T-6s for over a month now, I am still enjoying them. They are a nice size, and a pair will get plenty loud.

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post #14 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
i like how you employ the different expansion rates in order to smooth response.

something about the fold appears to have brought a little bit of the upper bass swing back.
Thanks.

Some of the dip that is centered at 90 is a result of the side-firing mouth, which shortened the L45 distance a bit, increasing the depth of that dip. My model is of a conventional end-firing design. Compared to the options for placement with the end-firing mouth, I'll take the dip being a dB or two deeper, and enjoy the easier integration into my room. With the new mains, I'm crossing at 80 anyhow.

The longest dimension in this fold is about 80 cm or so, which is short enough to not really affect anything in the sub frequency range (~1/4 wavelength at 100 Hz or so).

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post #15 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 05:59 PM
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This looks like a lot of fun. Thanks, lilmike!!

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #16 of 192 Old 09-03-2011, 08:06 PM
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So Mike, of the drivers you have mentioned, which would be the "ultimate"?

Really thinking about using these to supplement my dual opposed..

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup


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post #17 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 02:33 PM
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Really excited to build one of these loaded with a decent 10 inch sub. Question though : is there any particular parameter and value range of that parameter that I should be looking at when choosing a driver? eg particular vas or qts etc?
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post #18 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

So Mike, of the drivers you have mentioned, which would be the "ultimate"?

Really thinking about using these to supplement my dual opposed..

Ultimate? That's a different project all together. This one was about bang for the buck, and efficient use of a sheet of plywood.....

I have updated post two with a few more drivers based on my models.

If I had it to do again and had to buy drivers, I'd let budget be my guide....

Cheap as possible? Apex Junior 8s if they're still available. This cabinet was initially designed for them, and they do work well in it. The Dayton Classic 8s (DCS205-4) don't look too bad either.

Bang for the buck? Hands down, I'd go with a decent car-audio 10. Kicker's CVX-10, Fi X-10, SSA DCON-10, JBL 1014 or Alpine SWR 1043. With a street price of ~$130 shipped for any of these if you shop, these are pretty hard to beat.

Most performance? TC Epic 10.

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post #19 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 06:27 PM
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That looks like a whole heap of fun Lilmike! If my Mal-x goes belly up, I know what I'm building a pair of... (knock wood)

Best,
Christopher
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post #20 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 07:23 PM
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So being just slightly larger and higher tuned than your Exodus 25hz tapped horn, I'm guessing it's capable of slightly higher SPL?
Assuming the $40 Apex Jr. woofer is used?

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #21 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 07:35 PM
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so would I be correct in assuming that i could use the kicker cvx 10, and wire the dual vc four ohm in series I would get eight ohms. So if I built 2 and wired both horns toghther in parallel, I would be at a final impedance of four ohms, correct?

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post #22 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

So being just slightly larger and higher tuned than your Exodus 25hz tapped horn, I'm guessing it's capable of slightly higher SPL?
Assuming the $40 Apex Jr. woofer is used?

The T-6 is actually over twice the size of the Insubnia. It puts about 6 dB on the Insubnia at a watt, and the Apex will take about twice the power, so the T-6 is considerably louder.

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post #23 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

so would I be correct in assuming that i could use the kicker cvx 10, and wire the dual vc four ohm in series I would get eight ohms. So if I built 2 and wired both horns toghther in parallel, I would be at a final impedance of four ohms, correct?

Yes.

The average impedance will be a bit higher due to the loading the cabinet provides.

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post #24 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

so would I be correct in assuming that i could use the kicker cvx 10, and wire the dual vc four ohm in series I would get eight ohms. So if I built 2 and wired both horns toghther in parallel, I would be at a final impedance of four ohms, correct?

Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

The T-6 is actually over twice the size of the Insubnia. It puts about 6 dB on the Insubnia at a watt, and the Apex will take about twice the power, so the T-6 is considerably louder.

Wow, it doesn't look twice the size on paper.

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post #25 of 192 Old 09-04-2011, 08:09 PM
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Fantastic work lilmike!! I will definitely consider a pair of these...
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post #26 of 192 Old 09-05-2011, 09:15 AM
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So I decided to build one of these for my first diy subwoofer. I have a couple questions. Is 1/2 Baltic birch or MDF sufficient? Everywhere I have read they say to use 3/4 for larger enclosures. I have read that 1/2 may flex? Or is that only for subs with larger drivers?

And also when you install the driver to the hurricane nuts do you need to make a circular seal with silicone or something? Thanks.

Edit: one more question. Is a high pass filter necessary for this build? If so, which one is recommended?
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post #27 of 192 Old 09-05-2011, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGuitar93 View Post

So I decided to build one of these for my first diy subwoofer. I have a couple questions. Is 1/2 Baltic birch or MDF sufficient? Everywhere I have read they say to use 3/4 for larger enclosures. I have read that 1/2 may flex? Or is that only for subs with larger drivers?

And also when you install the driver to the hurricane nuts do you need to make a circular seal with silicone or something? Thanks.

Edit: one more question. Is a high pass filter necessary for this build? If so, which one is recommended?

I used 1/2" thick, 9-ply, shop-grade birch. It worked fine. It cost me about $33 a sheet at my local lumberyard (a real lumberyard - not a chain or big-box store). I would strongly suggest using good plywood instead of MDF.

My personal rule of thumb (based on my experience making and breaking cabinets over the last 25 years or so) is that cabinets for 12s and larger get made of 3/4" ply, and get braced when they are over ~18" wide internally. Cabinets for smaller drivers (6.5s, 8s, and 10s) get made of 1/2" ply, and get braced when they're over ~12" wide internally.

For the T-6, I drew my plans based on 1/2" material, using 3/4" would require a new set of plans, and I'm not drawing those up. Since it is only 11-3/4" internally, I skipped the bracing. Living on the edge??? Maybe. Did it work? Certainly. The T-6s vibrate less than the F-20.

I recommend Duct Seal to seal the driver to the baffle. It is like the speaker caulk you can get at PE, but you can get it at Lowes, Home Depot, or your local hardware store. It is usually found in the electrical aisle, and it is sold in 1-pound bricks. One brick is probably a lifetime supply if you're making speakers on a DIY basis, unless you're a nutjob like me that makes a dozen or more cabinets in a typical year. You don't need a lot of it, just a thin strip around the mounting surface. I thought I mentioned using that in the instructions. Not sure - might need to proof-read them....

Using a highpass somewhere between 20 and 30 Hz is recommended, the driver is not well-loaded by the horn below tune, just like in a ported box. Most plate amps will have a built in highpass, though it may require modification. My BASH 500 is running my pair of T-6s (wired in series) with the highpass modified to 20 Hz, no complaints from the drivers so far with about 125 watts to each. Even with my new ewaves, I am still running out of mains (power and distortion-limited) before I run out of sub (but I'm not running the LFE hot).

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post #28 of 192 Old 09-05-2011, 10:10 AM
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"Even with my new ewaves..."

what woof are you running, what amp?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #29 of 192 Old 09-05-2011, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

Yep.



Wow, it doesn't look twice the size on paper.

Insubnia is 30" tall, 20.125" wide and 8.5" deep, which is just a hair under 3 cubic feet.

T-6 is 35.875" tall, 23.875" wide, and 12.75" deep, which is 6.3 cubic feet.

A couple inches here, a couple there, and the cabinet is twice the size....

Hornresp Tutorials (By amateurs, for amateurs!)


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lilmike is offline  
post #30 of 192 Old 09-05-2011, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post


I used 1/2" thick, 9-ply, shop-grade birch. It worked fine. It cost me about $33 a sheet at my local lumberyard (a real lumberyard - not a chain or big-box store). I would strongly suggest using good plywood instead of MDF.

My personal rule of thumb (based on my experience making and breaking cabinets over the last 25 years or so) is that cabinets for 12s and larger get made of 3/4" ply, and get braced when they are over ~18" wide internally. Cabinets for smaller drivers (6.5s, 8s, and 10s) get made of 1/2" ply, and get braced when they're over ~12" wide internally.

For the T-6, I drew my plans based on 1/2" material, using 3/4" would require a new set of plans, and I'm not drawing those up. Since it is only 11-3/4" internally, I skipped the bracing. Living on the edge??? Maybe. Did it work? Certainly. The T-6s vibrate less than the F-20.

I recommend Duct Seal to seal the driver to the baffle. It is like the speaker caulk you can get at PE, but you can get it at Lowes, Home Depot, or your local hardware store. It is usually found in the electrical aisle, and it is sold in 1-pound bricks. One brick is probably a lifetime supply if you're making speakers on a DIY basis, unless you're a nutjob like me that makes a dozen or more cabinets in a typical year. You don't need a lot of it, just a thin strip around the mounting surface. I thought I mentioned using that in the instructions. Not sure - might need to proof-read them....

Using a highpass somewhere between 20 and 30 Hz is recommended, the driver is not well-loaded by the horn below tune, just like in a ported box. Most plate amps will have a built in highpass, though it may require modification. My BASH 500 is running my pair of T-6s (wired in series) with the highpass modified to 20 Hz, no complaints from the drivers so far with about 125 watts to each. Even with my new ewaves, I am still running out of mains (power and distortion-limited) before I run out of sub (but I'm not running the LFE hot).

Thanks!

Would this work as a high pass?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=266-246

And is a dayton 240 a good amp to use?
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