AESpeakers TD Series group buy!!! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Also, if anyone has build threads from previous TD woofer builds, can you either PM them to me or link them so I can get them on my forum?
John


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1141754

TD18 Ported
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post #32 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Are you sure 6 TD18's is enough?

I don't think we will have a problem coming up with 50 total. I know of 10 off the top of my head not including those mentioned here.

Anybody considering a Pi Speaker should jump on their TD12S's now. I'd definitely skip the Pi4 and go Pi3 with these prices.Seaton, do you have any sneak previews on this kit? I assume it will be a horn 2-way, right? Which horn?

Just finished my 4pi, jbl 2226 build and firmly believe I am single handedly responsible for this wonderful opportunity...

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post #33 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Go here for T/S specs:

http://www.aespeakers.com/shop/catalog/

hmm, no TD12M

ah, here it is

http://aespeakers.com/shop/catalog/p...products_id=60

Noah
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post #34 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 02:49 PM
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So, 3pi with the TD12M with upgraded horn, standard crossovers - best bang for the buck right now among DIY speakers? (No offense intended Mark!)
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post #35 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 02:54 PM
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Are this drivers good for HT? I see most are 500W RMS. And another question. If the driver manufacturers recommends to build a 2 cF - 3 cF for a sealed enclosure and you do a 5cF sealed enclosure; does it affects greatly in performance?
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post #36 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 02:56 PM
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upgraded 3pi uses TD12S, DE250, and H290 horn.

however, we'll probably see quite a bit of e-wave/3pi variants once the SEOS, DE250, and TD12's becomes widely available via group buys.
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post #37 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javygonx View Post

Are this drivers good for HT? I see most are 500W RMS.

For HT purposes, i think anywhere from 100w to 250w is more than anyone should ever need, but they'll be wicked for HT. Being larger drivers (except the TD6, which is more of a dedicated midrange in a 3-way) you probably need to mate them to constant directivity horns like the SEOS-8/10/12/15/18 in order to have a smooth transition from drivers. They're all midwoofers, not subwoofers, though. Keep that in mind.

Quote:
And another question. If the driver manufacturers recommends to build a 2 cF - 3 cF for a sealed enclosure and you do a 5cF sealed enclosure; does it affects greatly in performance?

You really want to model it yourself and go for the qtc that you find gives you the best set of compromises.
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post #38 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

upgraded 3pi uses TD12S, DE250, and H290 horn.

however, we'll probably see quite a bit of e-wave/3pi variants once the SEOS, DE250, and TD12's becomes widely available via group buys.

Yes, sorry, you are correct - I had it in my head from the QSC K12 thread that the TD12M was superior - I went back and saw that was Penn's verdict - me, I have no idea, I just want to build a quality speaker!
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post #39 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 03:23 PM
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you can go with the pi3 now. or wait for new designs form Mark Seaton, or someone else once they get their hands on the parts.
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post #40 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speqtre View Post

Yes, sorry, you are correct - I had it in my head from the QSC K12 thread that the TD12M was superior - I went back and saw that was Penn's verdict - me, I have no idea, I just want to build a quality speaker!

If you are okay with 60Hz ported then the TD12M is superior above 400Hz or 600Hz, equal below 400Hz to 80 or 60Hz and has higher sensitivity making it a better match with CDs.

The TD12S is only better at extension!! The measurements and even John Janowitz has confirmed this in the past.

The only question really here would be the "audible differences". We are probably splitting hairs because both probably sound better then most other choices.

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post #41 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javygonx View Post

Are this drivers good for HT? I see most are 500W RMS. And another question. If the driver manufacturers recommends to build a 2 cF - 3 cF for a sealed enclosure and you do a 5cF sealed enclosure; does it affects greatly in performance?

Are they good for HT?? Hell yes!!! Its pretty much the only driver I care to buy outside of finding JBL 2226s for a low cost. Cubic Feet just changes the driver extension/efficiency.


These are best drivers I have found for mid range or main speaker bass. Their measurements agree with my conclusions.

1. Built by a designer that knows what it take so to make a high performance driver.

2. Used by many expert designers when they want TOP quality. Those include Salk audio, Pi Speakers, Seaton Sound, etc.

3. Made in the US. Lets face it, its nice to see something in production from America and not sourced out to China!! Please do not take this too far. Im okay with buying products from anywhere but when there is a quality product that has a good price point and its made in the USA, who would balk at that??

Im also okay with anyone labelling me a FANBOY, there simply isnt a better driver choice out there. If there was I would have bought it!!

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post #42 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 04:08 PM
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So has anyone done a Pi3 using the TD12M? I'm happy to sacrifice extension for sensitivity in a dedicated theater with subs.

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post #43 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Are they good for HT?? Hell yes!!! Its pretty much the only driver I care to buy outside of finding JBL 2226s for a low cost.


These are best drivers I have found for mid range or bass. Their measurements agree with my conclusions.

1. Built by a designer that knows what it take so to make a high performance driver.

2. Used by many expert designers when they want TOP quality. Those include Salk audio, Pi Speakers, Seaton Sound, etc.

3. Made in the US. Lets face it, its nice to see something in production from America and not sourced out to China!! Please do not take this too far. Im okay with buying products from anywhere but when there is a quality product that has a good price point and its made in the USA, who would balk at that??

Im also okay with anyone labelling me a FANBOY, there simply isnt a better driver choice out there. If there was I would have bought it!!

Pfft.

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post #44 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

They're all midwoofers, not subwoofers, though. Keep that in mind.

Yeah, these are not really used as subwoofers although The TD18 series is an extremely high performance bass woofer!! It models very well from 25Hz to even past 200hz.

The X series and S series has substantial extension. look at their Xmax so they are perfect for full range speaker designs. These are considered "woofers'

Only the "M" series is designed more for high sensitivity mid range performance, "M" probably meaning "Mid Range", I can not remember why John labelled it M but I always thought it was "Mid-range".

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post #45 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-mill View Post

So has anyone done a Pi3 using the TD12M? I'm happy to sacrifice extension for sensitivity in a dedicated theater with subs.

The Pi3 is specifically designed for the TD12S. The difference between the TD12M and TD12S is significant enough that they cannot be swapped without a pretty significant crossover redesign. You could ask Wayne Parham of Pi Speakers if he would be interested in a redesign, but I think he has turned down that request in the past. I believe he prefers designing speakers with deeper extension because some of his customers go without a subwoofer.
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post #46 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 06:28 PM
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TD18 is an excellent candidate for a Synergy horn! ie the bass part below done more like the original Unity. Had I known this was coming I wouldn't have upgraded my woofers. Hmmmm, still might be tempted and if there are 50, that's a real killer deal.
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post #47 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 07:05 PM
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The biggest benefit seems to be only having to put 50% down for the group buy vs 100% down for a single order. I'd pay 25% more to get the drivers sooner (well, I guess I did), but I totally understand how hard John is working to fill orders already in house. And don't get me wrong, I'm only 10 weeks out on a pair of TD drivers and am in no real hurry, but this looks like a nightmare in the making.

I'd jump in on this group buy, but it seems like this is just going to swamp AE, plus the logistics nightmare of all the shipping to various countries and trying to collect the other 50% of the payment.

I hope it goes well, but I sure hope my order gets built before it hits.
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post #48 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 07:16 PM
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John will get 100% of what he's owned before he ships anything.

So that is not a concern.
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post #49 of 768 Old 09-29-2011, 07:23 PM
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I wasn't implying he wouldn't get 100% of what was (owed), just that having to do all that billing twice is, well, twice the work. It's great that he's willing to knock half off the down payment, but it'd be a lot faster to only have to collect once.
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post #50 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 05:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckAuger View Post

The biggest benefit seems to be only having to put 50% down for the group buy vs 100% down for a single order. I'd pay 25% more to get the drivers sooner (well, I guess I did), but I totally understand how hard John is working to fill orders already in house. And don't get me wrong, I'm only 10 weeks out on a pair of TD drivers and am in no real hurry, but this looks like a nightmare in the making.

I'd jump in on this group buy, but it seems like this is just going to swamp AE, plus the logistics nightmare of all the shipping to various countries and trying to collect the other 50% of the payment.

I hope it goes well, but I sure hope my order gets built before it hits.

FWIW, this started on DIYAudio.com forums ( I think) a member there started a group buy TD woofer thread and appoarched John Janowitz with the idea.

And if you read the thread on John's forum you would see this....

Quote:


Offering this group buy now is ideal as it allows me to add some quantity to the current order and pass on that discount to those getting in on the group buy. Currently parts are scheduled to be leaving China at the end of October.

I do think its important for everyone to understand the ETA of this group buy so I will ask John for an estimation.

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post #51 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 05:43 AM
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Would dual TD15m's be an upgrade from my current dual JBL2035's (4622) and use the existing network?
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post #52 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

FWIW, this started on DIYAudio.com forums ( I think) a member there started a group buy TD woofer thread and appoarched John Janowitz with the idea.

And if you read the thread on John's forum you would see this....



I do think its important for everyone to understand the ETA of this group buy so I will ask John for an estimation.

I believe Dnewma04 originally started talking about it on AudioKarma and then started the GB thread on DIYA.

I'm also curious about what John says about an ETA. I'm not in a hurry myself. I'd imagine he is planning to clear his plate before this starts up and will probably dedicate everything to the GB.

IMO, this is a better business model for him. It allows him to plan his labor and materials better and work on a large batch instead. It should allow for a slimmer operation and hopefully steadier both in regards to revenue and output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

Would dual TD15m's be an upgrade from my current dual JBL2035's (4622) and use the existing network?

Yes, the TD15Ms would be upgrades. You are using passives right? If so, they would need to reworked. An active setup would be easier, but would also need tweaking. I'm also not sure the TD15Ms would be the right driver for the job. It might be the S, X or H variant if you want to keep the same box tuning.

If you are running active, you could seal the ports and go with the TD15M's. Then eq the response to your liking. This is the route I prefer and use with my dual 2226Js right now. You can also go sealed with passive but you won't be able to extend the output if needed. The dual TD15Ms have an F3 of 80hz in 8 cu ft.
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post #53 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 06:30 AM
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looks like Mark put up some CNC pics of the kit's cab? anyone got link?


"...The CNC pics you post look really great. I can only wait and see...."
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post #54 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Seaton, do you have any sneak previews on this kit? I assume it will be a horn 2-way, right? Which horn?


"QSC waveguide available from PE and any TD15 driver (X/H/M)."

While in Indianapolis for Cedia, Mark Seaton and I had a nice chance to meet and discuss many aspects of his products, in addition to discussing all things audio. What a pleasure it was having the opportunity to bend his ear, and allow him to elaborate on his design priorities, and subsequent engineering choices made. We covered many, many topics,...and suffice it to say, the guy is phenomenally talented.

I got an extended listening session, and my first chance to hear an all Seaton Catalyst based 7.1 (7.4,...4 Submersives) system at the Conrad Datasat demo. The following day we again discussed more things audio, and he explained this kit release that was imminent. He did feel there perhaps was a market opportunity, for a very high quality, kit based, high sens./high output/low distortion, two-way. He explained the cabinet would be similar to the mfg. of his current products,...which, as you can see in the link below,.... is all good.
"A level of polish and design maturity is what I see a lack of for such designs, and I feel that is where we can offer something different."

Exciting stuff.

Quote:


looks like Mark put up some CNC pics of the kit's cab? anyone got link?

Here is the thread discussing his cabinet maker.

Thanks

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post #55 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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From John wrt to delivery time....

Quote:
Originally Posted by stryke View Post

penngray, I updated the first post in the thread. If parts arrive the end of November we will machine the required parts right away and get them off to plating within a week. They should be back between 3-14 days later and the first drivers can begin shipping within a few days of that point.

John


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post #56 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

"QSC waveguide available from PE and any TD15 driver (X/H/M)."

I saw that and was under the impression everyone used that WG with a 12" driver due to similar directivity control. Personally I'd rather use a 15" with those WG's and I already have four of them (WG's that is).

Side note:
thread created a little over 24hrs ago and there's already over 1250 view.

YID DIY
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post #57 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckAuger View Post

I'd jump in on this group buy, but it seems like this is just going to swamp AE, plus the logistics nightmare of all the shipping to various countries and trying to collect the other 50% of the payment.

I hope it goes well, but I sure hope my order gets built before it hits.

One of the reasons I agreed to do the group buy is really that it allows me to get things in a better position to be deliverable in the future as well. The larger quantity of DIY orders coming in at once allows me the opportunity to get Tom coming to work here. This is something we've been planning for over a year but the timing just hasn't been right. With a large amount of orders coming at one time and money to be collected, it really gives me a boost to get him started.

Secondly, the current process for making TD woofers starts with ordering steel from the US. While this has allowed me to get drivers out, it is not efficient. A piece of 6" diameter round bar stock and a piece of 2" diameter round bar stock are combined to make each T-yoke. There is nearly an hour of manual machining time to turn these 2 pieces into a completed T-yoke with copper added. The top plates are made from a piece of 6" bar stock as well. There is at least a half hour of machining into each top plate as well. When I have 100 T-yokes and 100 top plates to make, that accounts for almost a month of full time machining if I'm doing nothing else. With the rest of the daily work load factored in, that can easily stretch to two months. To give you an idea of the amount of work done, imagine drilling a hole through 8feet of solid steel with a 1/2" bit, then a 1" bit, and then a 1-3/4" bit. That is just the first step in the process. The longest lead times end up happening when someone orders just as I run out of T-yokes and all the machining is ahead of me.

The same T-yoke can be forged as one piece and rough machined in China for less cost than the raw steel plate in the US. The quality of the steel is as good or better than the US steel. The main benefit though is in the time savings. All that is required is the final tolerance work on the critical dimensions and the application of the copper. This takes around 5 minutes per T-yoke. It takes about 2 minutes per top plate to bore the ID to correct tolerances. The time is cut to 7minutes per woofer instead of 90 minutes. This is around 12 hours of machining time vs 150 hours to do parts for 100 woofers.

The group buy allows me to get the steel in from China so it can be quickly machined for the orders from the group buy. At the same time it allows me to order extra steel so I can keep parts in stock in the future. Not only should I be able to deliver the group buy woofers quickly, but this should allow me to keep things deliverable in the future as well.

There won't be too much extra work with multiple payments and international shipping. I would guess that at least 40% of all orders come from overseas right now. Currently one payment comes in for the drivers and a second payment comes in at the time of completion for the shipping cost. In this case the second payment would be the final 50% plus shipping cost, so it will still be the same amount of work. Paypal lets you easily duplicate an invoice so the second one can be issued with little work. I do have someone able to handle all that invoicing end to keep the work load off of myself also.

John

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post #58 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 09:25 AM
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That sounds great John. IMO, small businesses such as yours need to get creative in sales, procurement and manufacturing. You have a great product, but that alone isn't enough to be successful. I know you've gone through quite an ordeal recently and I admire that you've kept your head above water and are going strong again.

I think this approach will better allow you to meet the demands of your different customer groups (OEMs, DIYers who can wait, and DIYers that want it now). It sounds like you will even be able to make more money while charging us less. Awesome!
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post #59 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

looks like Mark put up some CNC pics of the kit's cab? anyone got link?


"...The CNC pics you post look really great. I can only wait and see...."

Probably won't see the cabinets until later next week. The "CNC pics" were from the shop of my cabinet builder who will be building and delivering these and a few other cabinets. The specific pictures are from a large quantity SubMersive build.

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post #60 of 768 Old 09-30-2011, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

That sounds great John. IMO, small businesses such as yours need to get creative in sales, procurement and manufacturing. You have a great product, but that alone isn't enough to be successful. I know you've gone through quite an ordeal recently and I admire that you've kept your head above water and are going strong again.

I think this approach will better allow you to meet the demands of your different customer groups (OEMs, DIYers who can wait, and DIYers that want it now). It sounds like you will even be able to make more money while charging us less. Awesome!

best business model i have ever seen....

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