AESpeakers TD Series group buy!!! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 768 Old 10-02-2011, 05:59 PM
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I'd possibly be interested in a pair of TD6H, but I'm concerned about the reported dip in the frequency response...

John J, any news about the cause of this?
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post #92 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:02 AM
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Just a quick update that the total number of drivers are currently at 30. Dave Newman should be getting to the email soon. I setup the email on my server to make it easy but he will be monitoring it. He'll get a response to confirm orders and then pass on a complete listing of all the orders and quantities at the end.

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post #93 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by findbuddha View Post

I'd possibly be interested in a pair of TD6H, but I'm concerned about the reported dip in the frequency response...

John J, any news about the cause of this?

Honestly I haven't had much time to look into it more. The original spiders did have an issue that was removed by changing to a different spider. I've since seen a dip in a sealed enclosure where the dimensions within the box could have easily been the cause. This happens with all drivers though. I measured on a 4ft x 4ft open baffle and didn't measure any dip.

I have a local customer using them in line array boxes for live sound use. He has 8 6.5" and 8 ribbon tweeters per side. The 6.5" are in vented enclosures tuned around 60hz and we measured no dip either in the individual boxes or in the combined array. As a side note, I even had someone who used to work for SLS come and check out the line arrays. His comment was that he's never heard midrange that could come close to what these can do. I do plan to look into it more in the future, but from all the responses I've had from people, if there is something there, it's not an audible factor so I just can't put too much time into it right now.

John

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post #94 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Just a quick update that the total number of drivers are currently at 30. Dave Newman should be getting to the email soon. I setup the email on my server to make it easy but he will be monitoring it. He'll get a response to confirm orders and then pass on a complete listing of all the orders and quantities at the end.

John

wow...i am a little suprise by that numbers.

did Dave N. went though all the emails, or are there still a bunch of emails to be looked at?
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post #95 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

wow...i am a little suprise by that numbers.

did Dave N. went though all the emails, or are there still a bunch of emails to be looked at?

Surprised at so many or so few? Don't forget that most DIYers and purchasers in general are procrastinators. In past pre-orders or group buys I've had or talked to others who have run them, easily 50% can come in the last 1-3 days.

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post #96 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:35 AM
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^^^^^so few

based on the interests shown on this thread alone, there should be at least 20 diyers here (that's somewhere around 40-60 units).

but i guess you're right, many folks like to get throug in hour 24.
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post #97 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:38 AM
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I would imagine most of those procarstinators are waiting for the Seaton kit as well as other soon to be mentioned projects to come out before they make their purchase.
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post #98 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:38 AM
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I'm still figuring out how many I want to order...procrastinator! I know it will be at least 5 TD15Ms, but I might sneak a few more in.

It might help when Mark reveals more details about his boxes.
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post #99 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:40 AM
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In past group buys I have run, 75% of my orders would come in within the last 36 hours. Most everyone who has expressed interest here or in PM's has yet to order. Many are debating between TD12M's and TD15M's based on the cabinets Mark will have available. Many are corresponding about the best option for what they need, etc. I'm hoping, and I expect the quantity will get up to around 100 drivers.

John

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post #100 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:43 AM
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You can count me in for at least 5 more drivers. I was going to send in an email but have come to a slight dilema.

I plan on building 2 way mains using the beyma TPL-150H AMT driver and was eyeballing the TD12M as the midbass driver ran all the way up to around 1.5k (at the highest). Now I am reading the TD15M might be a better option for crossing this high.

I am much more concerned with interactions in the upper midbass region than LF extension. I plan on building bass bins for that using TD15Hs anyways.

Can John or anyone else shed some light on the matter . Which driver would be best suited for my situation?

It appears the DIY community is going to be making great leaps here in the near future. Great time to be get into the game
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post #101 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 09:53 AM
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Would any of the TDs be a close match to the 15" Tempest X2 from Exodus? I would like to put together another 15" sub in a 4.75 cf vented enclosure.
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post #102 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

I would imagine most of those procarstinators are waiting for the Seaton kit as well as other soon to be mentioned projects to come out before they make their purchase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'm still figuring out how many I want to order...procrastinator! I know it will be at least 5 TD15Ms, but I might sneak a few more in.

It might help when Mark reveals more details about his boxes.

Any words on when Mark is going to put out his new designs?
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post #103 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

In past group buys I have run, 75% of my orders would come in within the last 36 hours. Most everyone who has expressed interest here or in PM's has yet to order. Many are debating between TD12M's and TD15M's based on the cabinets Mark will have available. Many are corresponding about the best option for what they need, etc. I'm hoping, and I expect the quantity will get up to around 100 drivers.

John

hooray, does that mean a 60% discount?

50 = 30%

2 x 30% = 60% ?

sorry, my math is really bad.

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post #104 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 10:43 AM
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I'm in for at least 3 drivers just debating on the 12's in 3pi's or 15's in Mark's design.
I would gladly be persuaded to go with the 18's if someone has a good two way design for those instead though!
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post #105 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 10:47 AM
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30 drivers, so far. It looks like there may be interest in a half dozen dipole drivers, so far. A couple of more batches of 8 or so dipole drivers and we'll be nearing the 25% off mark on those. For the participants in this thread with interest, please make sure you send an email to the tdgroupbuy email listed on John's post on his site.
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post #106 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 10:57 AM
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I'm in for 7 of something...I suspect it will be TD15Ms.

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post #107 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Will there be any SQ advantage to going the active route vs. the passive crossover?

I already have a 400x7 amp and I'm trying to decide if I should consider abandoning passive and move to active. I have space and WAF considerations that makes integrating 5 or 7 iNuke DSP amps a fairly difficult proposition. I know moving to an active setup would confer significant advantages for tweaking and future speaker options, but my immediate question is specifically whether you think the passive crossover you're designing will have the same SQ as an active design?

With compression drivers, active is most often a superior approach. The reality is that you need to add 2-3 passive components to deal with every response deviation you want to correct. The only practical limitation with an active crossover is the noise floor and overall quality of the DSP crossover and the amplifiers used.

The main hurdle I have to keep an eye on is insuring the time and effort is sustainable in my business. As is clear by all the responses and questions, the component/driver selection, box design, and most importantly crossover design represent the biggest value I'm adding, and is in significant demand. While I'm not out to gouge enthusiasts with audio-cable profits, it can't loose money if I want to support customers down the road and keep adding to such offerings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-mill View Post

Mark, will the passive crossover design be available for those of us who would prefer to do all the construction ourselves?

An assembled crossover will likely be made available once complete, but I haven't yet settled on a compression driver. I'm leaning toward a Radian or BMS, but will be testing others as well. That said, if the cabinet differs much, the response and driver behavior can/will change. The raw MDF version of the cabinets often can come at significant savings due to the labor/time involved in finishing and cheaper sheet material costs vs. the pre-veneered material. While some will then ask why not just build the whole box, I can only attest to the huge luxury of dealing with clean, mitered corners with no MDF end grain, not dealing with non-90 deg wall construction, along with perfectly cut recesses and pre-installed T-Nuts located by a CNC.

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post #108 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Would any of the TDs be a close match to the 15" Tempest X2 from Exodus? I would like to put together another 15" sub in a 4.75 cf vented enclosure.

The TD drivers are not subwoofers. They are midbass/midrange drivers and are not similar to the Tempest.

John, does the directivity of the TD15M differ from a typical 15" woofer? In other words, does it beam to ~90deg at a frequency higher than 1200-1300hz? I've seen some comments that might indicate that.

Also, does the TD15M use a different cone profile than the TD15X?
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post #109 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 11:20 AM
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AFAIK, The TD15 series all use the same cone profile, the difference is the surround. The measurements and experience I have seen/heard have shown me that the TD15M does, in fact, extend a little higher off-axis than other alternatives on the market. A combination of the phase plug and cone profile at work, I suspect. They seem to be good for a couple of hundred extra hertz.
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post #110 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

In past group buys I have run, 75% of my orders would come in within the last 36 hours. Most everyone who has expressed interest here or in PM's has yet to order. Many are debating between TD12M's and TD15M's based on the cabinets Mark will have available. Many are corresponding about the best option for what they need, etc. I'm hoping, and I expect the quantity will get up to around 100 drivers.

John

To help a little in confirming what is certain, I just posted to the group buy thread on AE's forum. I wanted to confirm that I will make available a cabinet for the TD-15" & TD-12" drivers with the QSC horn available through Parts Express. If a suitable SEOS horn is available, we'll make at least one combo each with a 15/12" also available. I will also confirm that I will work up a similar design with one of the potential SEOS or eighteen sound XT1086 waveguides with a TD10.

I'm not making any such promises of crossovers (especially passive), but do remember that active crossovers are developed much more efficiently. There are also plenty of forum members who have been very generous with their time and knowledge to work up designs using various parts. There is nothing holding back anyone from doing similar using these cabinets and the parts of their choosing.

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post #111 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnewma04 View Post

AFAIK, The TD15 series all use the same cone profile, the difference is the surround. The measurements and experience I have seen/heard have shown me that the TD15M does, in fact, extend a little higher off-axis than other alternatives on the market. A combination of the phase plug and cone profile at work, I suspect. They seem to be good for a couple of hundred extra hertz.

When I look at AugerPro's measurements of the TD15X vs the B&C 15NW76, it seems to beam to 80deg at about the same frequency ~1300hz. The advantage of the curvilinear cone seems to be that 40 deg response stays pretty solid up to 2khz and beyond whereas the B&C falls apart around 2khz.

I've attached the charts. The red is on-axis, green is 40deg beamwidth and blue is 80deg beamwidth. I've marked what I see as the approximate -6db down frequency for 80deg.
LL
LL
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post #112 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

... I haven't yet settled on a compression driver. I'm leaning toward a Radian or BMS, but will be testing others as well.

Curious why not the B&C DE250, which is tried and true, and I think the least expensive.

Noah
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post #113 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Curious why not the B&C DE250, which is tried and true, and I think the least expensive.

The B&C De250 is like the high sensitivity of Dayton RS drivers...

...overused...
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post #114 of 768 Old 10-03-2011, 03:02 PM
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I don't know what that means

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

The B&C De250 is like the high sensitivity of Dayton RS drivers...

...overused...


Noah
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post #115 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

... I haven't yet settled on a compression driver. I'm leaning toward a Radian or BMS, but will be testing others as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Curious why not the B&C DE250, which is tried and true, and I think the least expensive.

The DE250 will be included in the "others" referred to. My past experience with DE series compression drivers left me more impressed with others like those I mentioned, but I will be comparing and making a call from there. There are plenty of compression drivers which have better extension to 20kHz, and the capability below 2kHz are two things I'll look closely at. While the 20kHz extension isn't hugely audible, breakups and resonances under 20kHz are worth watching out for as they can create some odd behavior when excited. The DE250 could work just fine, but it's hardly the only option. Earl might have declared it equal in the performance he cares about to anything he's tested, but those are the same standards that don't care about anything below 20-25Hz and the creativity that can't figure out how to safely ship a finished, heavy speaker. Most of the pro-audio world consider it a capable driver but hardly the ideal or only value choice.

With so many DIYers already working with the DE250, I would be surprised to not see a few DIY created crossovers. I have to say the specif interests and questions regarding what I've mentioned here has been interesting for sure. I expected from the group here much more interest in the cabinets themselves, leaving DIYers to tinker with parts and crossovers of their liking. The 2nd phase of this effort following up with the ready-to-load, complete kits appears to be of much greater interest. The question now will just be balancing real costs with sustainable pricing.

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post #116 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 07:43 AM
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Just to confirm what Mark stated, while the DE250 is an option out there it is definitely not "the" option. I've worked with several compression drivers on the pro systems here and there are many that can give good results. We've experimented with B&C, 18sound, BMS, Selenium, and a few others. I have found the 1" BMS to be the most neutral sounding and the least free from harsh breakups. I would select it before the DE250 in almost every case.

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post #117 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Im definitely a fan of the BMS 4550 driver since I used it in my QSC build with the TD12M.

It would be interesting to see if Mark uses that driver and findout what the XO was for him....I know, I know..IP and I will never see it!!! A Hack like me can dream though

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post #118 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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so how many people want TD15Ms????

I will buy 4 if is we are going to hit 50!!! If not I will just buy 2.

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post #119 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
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Im definitely a fan of the BMS 4550 driver since I used it in my QSC build with the TD12M.

It would be interesting to see if Mark uses that driver and findout what the XO was for him....I know, I know..IP and I will never see it!!! A Hack like me can dream though

If given the choice would you go with the BMS 4550 over the B&C DE250? I'd like to do 7 active TD15M+QSC waveguide+comp driver and with all the builds using the DE250 had assumed it was the driver to beat for cost/performance. But the 4550 is barely more money...

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post #120 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 09:27 AM
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Is the exit angle of the BMS 4550 similar to the DE250? I believe that the SEOS series was designed with the DE250 as the model CD.
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