AESpeakers TD Series group buy!!! - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by b-mill View Post

If given the choice would you go with the BMS 4550 over the B&C DE250? I'd like to do 7 active TD15M+QSC waveguide+comp driver and with all the builds using the DE250 had assumed it was the driver to beat for cost/performance. But the 4550 is barely more money...

Never played with the DE250. Im ordering one from Wayne P. in the near future (for me that might be a year out ) to build something very similar to his Pi3 speakers, I already have the TD12S drivers now unused.

Honestly I doubt anyone can go wrong with the DE250. Mark and John have their conclusions but we also know that many others like Wayne P., Dr. Geddes have their conclusions too. Wayne has been around a long time and has some experience, he once told me that the H290/DE250 + TD12S (3 Pi upgraded design) is one of the best speakers he has heard ever. Of course , again that is also subjective since I think the TD12M is a better driver then the TD12S.

Sometimes we have to remove/ignore the subjectivity to realize that the DE250 and the BMS series drivers are both damn good drivers in the right design.

For the SEOS build design we have to remember that its throat angle matches the DE250 so I will say that the DE250 should be the driver of choice for that design. I would recommend reading some of Augerpro's thoughts on the QSC and B&C drivers, vs BMS or even higher end Beyma. Look for his "No Quarter" build/discussions thread.

Conclusion,
Its 100% okay for Mark Seaton to choose another driver because he is selling the entire kit. He isnt here to build a DIY XO for the rest of us (even if we want him too )

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post #122 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 09:48 AM
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in for 2 td15x
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post #123 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 09:54 AM
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I'm in for (2) TD15M.
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post #124 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 10:04 AM
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[quote=penngray;21037811]Conclusion,
Its 100% okay for Mark Seaton to choose another driver because he is selling the entire kit. He isnt here to build a DIY XO for the rest of us (even if we want him too )[/
QUOTE]

Exactly! And whatever Mark puts out, it won't be 'cheap'.

From a budget friendly & diy ready point of view, 3pi is the best option available at the moment.

That's where I am heading.
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post #125 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 10:06 AM
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John/Dave,

Did confirmation emails went out? I haven't seen anything. Just want to make sure they didn't show up in my spam box by any chance.
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post #126 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 10:12 AM
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The SEOS was designed to match the DE250's 14.6deg throat angle partly because it is widely available, a good value and well regarded. The other reason was because the 4550 is 14deg and the CP380 is 16deg30min. I'd guess that is well within the margin of manufacturing error. Those are probably the three most likely high-end options. (Penn will probably buy some $2k TADs of course) I don't know what the exit angle on Radian's 1" looks like. I don't recall the CDX1-1745's exit angle which is the best of the mid-priced CDs.

I'll probably snag some 4550's to design for too.
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post #127 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The DE250 will be included in the "others" referred to. My past experience with DE series compression drivers left me more impressed with others like those I mentioned, but I will be comparing and making a call from there. There are plenty of compression drivers which have better extension to 20kHz, and the capability below 2kHz are two things I'll look closely at. While the 20kHz extension isn't hugely audible, breakups and resonances under 20kHz are worth watching out for as they can create some odd behavior when excited. The DE250 could work just fine, but it's hardly the only option. Earl might have declared it equal in the performance he cares about to anything he's tested, but those are the same standards that don't care about anything below 20-25Hz and the creativity that can't figure out how to safely ship a finished, heavy speaker. Most of the pro-audio world consider it a capable driver but hardly the ideal or only value choice.

With so many DIYers already working with the DE250, I would be surprised to not see a few DIY created crossovers. I have to say the specif interests and questions regarding what I've mentioned here has been interesting for sure. I expected from the group here much more interest in the cabinets themselves, leaving DIYers to tinker with parts and crossovers of their liking. The 2nd phase of this effort following up with the ready-to-load, complete kits appears to be of much greater interest. The question now will just be balancing real costs with sustainable pricing.

Not sure cabinets were a huge problem, funky waves has super high end wood cabinets, edesign has pro sound cabinets (though their glossy finishes arent too expensive i think). Acoustic elegance makes pretty fantastic cabinets as well (but not sure what the wait time is like)
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post #128 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

so how many people want TD15Ms????

I will buy 4 if is we are going to hit 50!!! If not I will just buy 2.

Theres zero reason to commit to this right now for most people... i wouldnt want to buy a TD15M based on a kit with no pictures or prices (i understand that this will soon change im just saying thats what most people are waiting on)
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post #129 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The DE250 will be included in the "others" referred to. My past experience with DE series compression drivers left me more impressed with others like those I mentioned, but I will be comparing and making a call from there.

Fair enough, and potentially good news for me, as I already have 4552ND's.

I compared the 4552ND with the 4550 at the BMS web site, and besides the ferrite magnet the only difference in any spec was that the recommended XO for the 4552ND is 1 kHz vs 800 Hz for the 4550.

Odd, as the electrical spec's and response curves are identical as far as I could see.

Noah
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post #130 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Theres zero reason to commit to this right now for most people... i wouldnt want to buy a TD15M based on a kit with no pictures or prices (i understand that this will soon change im just saying thats what most people are waiting on)

...aside fromt 25-30% off. I'm not sure there is going to be much more info from Seaton before the deadline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Fair enough, and potentially good news for me, as I already have 4552ND's.

I compared the 4552ND with the 4550 at the BMS web site, and besides the ferrite magnet the only difference in any spec was that the recommended XO for the 4552ND is 1 kHz vs 800 Hz for the 4550.

Odd, as the electrical spec's and response curves are identical as far as I could see.

The main concern is the throat angle. They might be identical, but I don't know. I think you can find out by contacting BMS.
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post #131 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

...aside fromt 25-30% off. I'm not sure there is going to be much more info from Seaton before the deadline.
.

i too would find it difficult to commit to an unkown design, without the promise of a x-over.

i did however commited to two TD12S for 3pi builds. i get can x-overs directly from parham, and buy the CD/Horn from other outlets.
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post #132 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

...aside fromt 25-30% off. I'm not sure there is going to be much more info from Seaton before the deadline.

25-30% doesnt mean much to me if cabinets are more than i want to spend and then im stuck with drivers. The whole cost of the project is whats going to decide whether or not the 3pi or TD15M 2way happens. I understand mark seaton will reveal all that in a week or two, thats what im saying people are waiting on
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post #133 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 03:19 PM
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Keep in mind that I'm offering the group buy because there were many people looking at doing their own builds with TD woofers before there was ever any mention of Mark's cabinet/kits. There was a chance to let others in on the same quantity pricing. While Mark's cabinets/kits can be an attractive option for those who have limited tools and/or woodworking ability, they are far from the only build to do with the TD woofers. I've sold thousands of woofers to DIY'ers that weren't building any specific kit and simply building their own DIY project. There are quite a few on AVS who have done so. The joy of that is you can pick any horn, compression driver, cabinet type or size, unique look, etc that you desire. Everything from DIY home theaters to recording studios to live sound systems and $100,000+ hifi systems have used the TD drivers with great success. As Mark mentioned there are many on the forum here who are capable of helping people through an active build if you can do your own cabinet. With the discount on a pair of TD drivers you would save enough to pick up a minidsp and a behringer mic, install RoomEQ Wizard, and be on your way to creating something of your own. Others want a proven design all ready to assemble with little guesswork on their end. Those are the ones who would want to look at Mark's kit/cabinet.

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post #134 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Keep in mind that I'm offering the group buy because there were many people looking at doing their own builds with TD woofers before there was ever any mention of Mark's cabinet/kits. There was a chance to let others in on the same quantity pricing. While Mark's cabinets/kits can be an attractive option for those who have limited tools and/or woodworking ability, they are far from the only build to do with the TD woofers. I've sold thousands of woofers to DIY'ers that weren't building any specific kit and simply building their own DIY project. There are quite a few on AVS who have done so. The joy of that is you can pick any horn, compression driver, cabinet type or size, unique look, etc that you desire. Everything from DIY home theaters to recording studios to live sound systems and $100,000+ hifi systems have used the TD drivers with great success. As Mark mentioned there are many on the forum here who are capable of helping people through an active build if you can do your own cabinet. With the discount on a pair of TD drivers you would save enough to pick up a minidsp and a behringer mic, install RoomEQ Wizard, and be on your way to creating something of your own. Others want a proven design all ready to assemble with little guesswork on their end. Those are the ones who would want to look at Mark's kit/cabinet.

John

With the price of amps w/built in DSP's, active crossovers seem to make the most sense to me. Is there one of the 15's that makes the most sense when going active and crossing in the 60-80hz range?
Anyone have links to active builds that I can begin researching? I won't end up using these drivers until I move into a new house mid 2012, but at this price I can't pass them up!
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post #135 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The SEOS was designed to match the DE250's 14.6deg throat angle partly because it is widely available, a good value and well regarded. The other reason was because the 4550 is 14deg and the CP380 is 16deg30min. I'd guess that is well within the margin of manufacturing error. Those are probably the three most likely high-end options. (Penn will probably buy some $2k TADs of course) I don't know what the exit angle on Radian's 1" looks like. I don't recall the CDX1-1745's exit angle which is the best of the mid-priced CDs.

I'll probably snag some 4550's to design for too.

Where did you get the info with the exit angles? I thought Earl had said 13 degrees for DE250. I opened up an old one to measure it and 13 seems about right but it's actually difficult to measure physically.

I've opened up De250 and BMS 4550 as well as a Faital - people might find this interesting:

DE250
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...r-looking.html

BMS 4550
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...on-driver.html

Faital pro HF10TX
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...mpression.html

I've also heard these three comparatively at a couple of waveguide events and also in my own system. It's hard to know if bias is creeping in, but I would say they sound quite similar although I have had a slight preference for DE250. The build quality is certainly average though. The exit tube and phase plug are plastic, not very smooth internally and not well fitted. The means for centring the voice coil is also mediocre. The BMS has a smooth exit tube although it does have a change in angle where the transition could use a smooth radius. DE250 has a more conventional design, but the BMS has an annular diaphragm which radiates backwards first where the phase plug is actually part of the diaphragm assembly. Right at the end of the exit tube there is a 1.6 x 1.6mm gap with the DE250 around the edge.
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post #136 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Theres zero reason to commit to this right now for most people... i wouldnt want to buy a TD15M based on a kit with no pictures or prices (i understand that this will soon change im just saying thats what most people are waiting on)

Im kind of confused about this post because honestly the group buy really has little to do with what Mark is doing IMO.

I doubt the DIY group will even bother with Mark's solution in the end because it will have a VERY steep premium over Wayne's Pi designs considering it includes the cost of expensive DSP amps. We already know the success of Wayne's designs so I see little reason to pay the huge premium for a active Seaton kit. There will be a market for Mark's creations but its hard to justify it in the DIY world.

This group buy is definitely more about buying the TD drivers for QSC, SEOS or Pi speaker DIY projects.

The real reasons to commit to the group buy is that these drivers are 100% the best measured drivers for waveguide solutions. If someone wants a DIY waveguide solution and they want the best woofer/mid-range driver then here is their chance to get the best driver for up to 30% off. That is the reason for the group buy....wondering about Seaton kits is just secondary.

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post #137 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 05:23 PM
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I believe Jzagaja contacted B&C when we were designing the SEOS: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post1991371

I've seen Geddes say 12deg and I've seen others say 13deg. I think we are in the range where these are within the range of manufacturing tolerance for the SEOS.

I think it is hard to do back to back comparisons without making sure there are some controls in place like eq'ing the responses to a very similar target and ensuring the levels are well matched. Many people seem to like the DE250 the best even though it is "old school" and doesn't give the extension you see with some of the others. I can't really explain it. They definitely don't seem to do anything fancy. Then again, some prefer the 4550 or CP380. Maybe it is the waveguide/CD interaction.
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post #138 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

25-30% doesnt mean much to me if cabinets are more than i want to spend and then im stuck with drivers. The whole cost of the project is whats going to decide whether or not the 3pi or TD15M 2way happens. I understand mark seaton will reveal all that in a week or two, thats what im saying people are waiting on

I think we should separate the Seaton kits from this group buy discussion. Its obviously created some confusion already.

No one is ever stuck with a TD series driver. Its like saying people are stuck with Iphones There is always a market and always a project out there that they fit.

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post #139 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 06:22 PM
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The mark seaton kit is a wildcard, i dont see whats confusing. Unless you have already totally made up your mind there is zero reason to not wait until theres more details out from mark seaton if youre in the market for a 12" or 15" waveguide speaker (not you specifically since you tinker around with drivers, but most people looking to just get "a build" done). Thats what im trying to explain. Yeah the kit might cost too much, or it might be really cheap, nobody knows. Most people understand they might be putting their eggs all in one basket by pre-ordering 2+ drivers in anticipation for the mark seaton kit then it turns out they dont want to do it. Its not like you get drivers for cheaper by pre-ordering today as opposed to when theres more details about his kit.

Also i dont think everyone likes having DIY projects floating around, so they would indeed be stuck with AE drivers.

Frankly youre probably accurate about the price and most people not going for it, but then they can decide to probably do 3pis.
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post #140 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I guess I was trying to say that the group buy was created because there was a preception of high interest online for TD drivers. Several sites had many discussions (other forums had lists long before Seaton created the idea of a kit). We started talking about woofers for the SEOS project and obviously a group buy lowers that cost. Maybe the short term timing isnt helpful for the SEOS group since we do not hve a final product yet but with several other waveguide projects going on and the QSC being offered on PE then it might be good timing for a group buy.

I guess Im saying that there was interested completely outside of anything Mark was doing. Group buy was set in motion and would exist if Mark Seaton didnt offer anything. I have no idea how Mark will price it or allow pieces to be purchased outside of it so Im not sure that his kit has any impact on the group buy at all.

In the end everyone has a choice to get the driver for 25% off or not. Again, if anyone is going to build a speaker with that requires the best woofer there is simply no logic in waiting and missing the 25% off. Its pretty simple, if someone is building DIY waveguide designs in the next year then why not save $$$ on the top drivers?

I think you also missed my point about the Iphone reference, no one is has ever been stuck with the drivers. They sell used in days....always a high demand. After the group buy anyone could sell them for what they bought them for, I have no doubts about that considering what I have seen in the past.

Of course if you believe Mark's kit is the only viable design for the TD series then you do have to wait for details.

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post #141 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 07:58 PM
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I think a large group got sucked into this mark seaton thing, basically like i said, in the past couple of months ive been eyeing 12-15" AE woofers for a 2 way, but now i dont want to commit to 12" or 15" without knowing what this mark seaton thing is. I have no doubt a lot of people are in my same position and that we will EASILY surpass 50 pre-orders.
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post #142 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 09:02 PM
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This new kit sounds like a semi-fancy Econowave Deluxe with no passive XO. But Zilch used the trap cabs to purposefully keep cost down.

Buy some woofers and build a better system when the SEOS's are ready, they aren't going to depreciate at these prices.


Still waiting for the TD8's to be released
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post #143 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

The mark seaton kit is a wildcard, i dont see whats confusing. Unless you have already totally made up your mind there is zero reason to not wait until theres more details out from mark seaton if youre in the market for a 12" or 15" waveguide speaker (not you specifically since you tinker around with drivers, but most people looking to just get "a build" done). Thats what im trying to explain. Yeah the kit might cost too much, or it might be really cheap, nobody knows. Most people understand they might be putting their eggs all in one basket by pre-ordering 2+ drivers in anticipation for the mark seaton kit then it turns out they dont want to do it. Its not like you get drivers for cheaper by pre-ordering today as opposed to when theres more details about his kit.

Also i dont think everyone likes having DIY projects floating around, so they would indeed be stuck with AE drivers.

Frankly youre probably accurate about the price and most people not going for it, but then they can decide to probably do 3pis.

Wow, tough crowd.

As you point out, with the 3pi kit available, the cheap option is already there. I didn't do much searching, but I seem to recall augerpro had some info up of a version of his No Quarter project with the TD12M & QSC horn. It also sounds like plenty of skilled DIYers have plans for SEOS horns and 10, 12 or 15" TD drivers.

I'm starting to think it would have been much less hassle to not say a thing until the cabinets are on display next week at RMAF. I figured some additional options could help a few more think about jumping on the group buy. For those who might not be excited about the woodworking or construction aspects (plenty do get excited about such projects), the cabinets I just posted some pics of on the AE forum might be an intriguing option, even if a little more expensive than bargain options that require much more work. Once available, these will also have the benefit of being able to ship in 4-10 business days, with more than enough production capacity.

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"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #144 of 768 Old 10-04-2011, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Wow, tough crowd.

As you point out, with the 3pi kit available, the cheap option is already there. I didn't do much searching, but I seem to recall augerpro had some info up of a version of his No Quarter project with the TD12M & QSC horn. It also sounds like plenty of skilled DIYers have plans for SEOS horns and 10, 12 or 15" TD drivers.

I'm starting to think it would have been much less hassle to not say a thing until the cabinets are on display next week at RMAF. I figured some additional options could help a few more think about jumping on the group buy. For those who might not be excited about the woodworking or construction aspects (plenty do get excited about such projects), the cabinets I just posted some pics of on the AE forum might be an intriguing option, even if a little more expensive than bargain options that require much more work. Once available, these will also have the benefit of being able to ship in 4-10 business days, with more than enough production capacity.

the DIY crowd is cut throat... from the new pics the cabinets have potential, but a lot of people stain plywood and seem to be happy with it (which i personally think looks awful), so im not sure how big of a market there is on avs for well done veneered cabinets.
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post #145 of 768 Old 10-05-2011, 01:39 AM
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Perhaps there needs to be a separate thread for the Mark Seaton cabinets. Also lets remember that there will be a whole line of inexpensive flat packs (thanks to Erich H) available for the SEOS project and more.

For those wanting a more finished kit the Seaton cabinets will be an option and deserves its own thread to sort out the particulars leaving the AE group buy thread to focus on topic.
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post #146 of 768 Old 10-05-2011, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Fair enough, and potentially good news for me, as I already have 4552ND's.

I compared the 4552ND with the 4550 at the BMS web site, and besides the ferrite magnet the only difference in any spec was that the recommended XO for the 4552ND is 1 kHz vs 800 Hz for the 4550.

Odd, as the electrical spec's and response curves are identical as far as I could see.

I have both and I think the 4550 is more likely to show the c. 19kHz spike. I have not tried both on the QSC, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Never played with the DE250. Im ordering one from Wayne P. in the near future (for me that might be a year out ) to build something very similar to his Pi3 speakers, I already have the TD12S drivers now unused.

Honestly I doubt anyone can go wrong with the DE250. Mark and John have their conclusions but we also know that many others like Wayne P., Dr. Geddes have their conclusions too. Wayne has been around a long time and has some experience, he once told me that the H290/DE250 + TD12S (3 Pi upgraded design) is one of the best speakers he has heard ever. Of course , again that is also subjective since I think the TD12M is a better driver then the TD12S.

Sometimes we have to remove/ignore the subjectivity to realize that the DE250 and the BMS series drivers are both damn good drivers in the right design.

For the SEOS build design we have to remember that its throat angle matches the DE250 so I will say that the DE250 should be the driver of choice for that design. I would recommend reading some of Augerpro's thoughts on the QSC and B&C drivers, vs BMS or even higher end Beyma. Look for his "No Quarter" build/discussions thread.

Conclusion,
Its 100% okay for Mark Seaton to choose another driver because he is selling the entire kit. He isnt here to build a DIY XO for the rest of us (even if we want him too )

Penngray, are you aware of any FR graphs for the TD12S/H/X series? I know Brandon has documented the M. I'm trying to decide between the 3 foam surround versions.
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post #147 of 768 Old 10-05-2011, 11:47 PM
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I'm in for eight.

I can't decide if I will build 12" or 15" speakers for my LCR, so I ordered both. And a pair of 10" for surrounds, or maybe some smaller monitors for another room (to be used with a sub).

qty3 TD15M 8ohm
qty3 TD12M
qty2 TD10M

After living with my 12"+QSC econowave SRs in my livingroom for a month, I'm coming around to thinking that I can make speakers with 15" drivers "work", aesthetically. My latest idea is to get some wood slabs that are wide enough to mount a waveguide and 15" driver and build towers with an "invisible" black enclosure on the back that is not quite as wide as the slab. I know that it would present some acoustic tuning challenges, but it might even be cool to have "rough" sides on the slab rather than straight cuts.

-Max
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post #148 of 768 Old 10-06-2011, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywave-Rider View Post

Penngray, are you aware of any FR graphs for the TD12S/H/X series? I know Brandon has documented the M. I'm trying to decide between the 3 foam surround versions.

I can not remember if there are any 3rd party measurements out there for these difference choices. You could ask on AESpeakers.com if they have some.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #149 of 768 Old 10-06-2011, 08:19 AM
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I'm interested in a 12", paypal at the ready. Can somebody explain the difference between the S, H, M and X? I'm planning on doing a sealed enclosure and a 500 watt OAudio BASH amp. Thanks in advance for any advice.
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post #150 of 768 Old 10-06-2011, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubwerks View Post

I'm interested in a 12", paypal at the ready. Can somebody explain the difference between the S, H, M and X? I'm planning on doing a sealed enclosure and a 500 watt OAudio BASH amp. Thanks in advance for any advice.

These are not dedicated subwoofer drivers, they are midwoofers.

M has less xmax, highest sensitivity, and best measurable midrange performance thanks to its cloth surround.

S/X/H are all different tradeoffs between bass depth, box tuning, and sensitivity. They use a foam surround so they still have world class midrange performance. Try modeling them.

There does also exist a custom modified version of the H with about 22mm of xmax if you're looking for a low sensitivity dedicated woofer for a traditional 3-way. It would probably do well as a subwoofer but i am not sure if John would include it in the group buy. ask him about it.
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