AESpeakers TD Series group buy!!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 768 Old 10-11-2011, 08:09 PM
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John_E_Janowitz:

If you could build your ultimate home theater speaker using your drivers, what would you put together keeping sensitivity, midbass, and dynamics as a high priority?
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post #182 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 02:43 AM
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So with this group buy will that cement John's future in staying alive?

I have always wanted to buy some of these speakers but dont have the money right now. But at $200 roughly wow I would really only have to worry about shipping then. And when ordering many drivers the shipping usually is not to bad.

Hopefully there will be another one in the future.
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post #183 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 04:25 AM
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Would anybody know if picking these drivers up would be an option? I would ask on the aespeakers site but didn't want register, etc.
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post #184 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

What determines the difference between a midwoofer and a woofer? It's all about having enough displacement to get the output you want. You may want to spend $1500 on a single woofer and apply 3000W to it if enclosure volume is a big issue. If you can get away with larger enclosures you could go and buy 2 or 3 woofers with less excursion that would give equal or more output. You would spend much less money and with much less power needed your overall distortion is significantly lower. It's really just about picking what is best for the application.

Some of the best subwoofers I have ever done use the TD woofers. Playing the lowest frequencies is really the easiest part as it's all about moving enough air. Where most subwoofers greatly lack is in the upper end due to high inductance and distortion. This is where the TD woofers excel. The largest recording studio in chicago uses a subwoofer with a pair of TD15H's. It's a vented enclosure tuned to 15Hz and will easily reach 120dB at 15Hz in the room. The hiphop guys love it. Another studio locally here that Mark Seaton and I worked on uses 4 SPB15's (same VC, cone, surround as the TD15) in sealed enclosures. These 4 woofers will reach nearly 120dB at 10hz in the studio and flex the sliding glass doors enough that you would think they are passive radiators moving.

A single TD15H in a 28" external cube with 1.5" thick walls (8.8cf internal) tuned about 17hz will reach 111.7dB at 17hz. The interesting part is that it does this with only 450W. The single 15" woofer and pair of 15" PR's works extremely well for this. If you build 2 and double the power, you're adding 6dB more. Then factor in any gain from your room.

For a music only subwoofer, the original Lambda GOT12 was and is the best I have ever heard. It doesn't play to 15-18hz but it is extremely efficient and detailed and reaches to around 22hz. 3 cubic foot with a TD12H and pair of 15" PR's with 1400grams each. It has a gentle sloped off response that works great with room gain to not be overbearing. Here is an example of the one I had for myself with a dustcapped woofer at the time.





The only limit is displacement. However with 14mm Xmax, the TD woofers still move quite a bit of air. The only ones for midbass use only are the TDM's. With 6mm Xmax they won't let you get very low.

John



John, thanks for pointing out that the TD drivers can go low. I know my TD12S woofers had very good performance down low.

Can you comment any differences between the AV15X vs TD15H in a PR design tuned to 17Hz.


Also, can we have that dust cap instead of the phase plug???

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post #185 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

John_E_Janowitz:

If you could build your ultimate home theater speaker using your drivers, what would you put together keeping sensitivity, midbass, and dynamics as a high priority?

Easy... Depending on your HF choice match any of the TD#M drivers in a small sealed box for midrange with a pair of TD15H/X or TD12H/X for midbass. I suspect John's own pick would be a pair of TD6's + ribbon + 2xTD15. The high octane, ultra high performance I would love to play with some day is a good horn + TD15M in a small sealed box and a pair of TD15 or maybe a single TD18. The cabinet I have isn't too far from the upper section of such a beast, so maybe I will have to do some experimenting there next year.

Mark Seaton
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post #186 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Easy... Depending on your HF choice match any of the TD#M drivers in a small sealed box for midrange with a pair of TD15H/X or TD12H/X for midbass. I suspect John's own pick would be a pair of TD6's + ribbon + 2xTD15. The high octane, ultra high performance I would love to play with some day is a good horn + TD15M in a small sealed box and a pair of TD15 or maybe a single TD18. The cabinet I have isn't too far from the upper section of such a beast, so maybe I will have to do some experimenting there next year.

John helped me a great deal with my first high end HT design (Mark, so did you!!) . It ended up being the TD12S/PHL1120/NEOPRO5i design. I know John also recommended the RAALs and at the time the $$$ wasnt as good. I instead purchased the Neopro5is and TD12S through time. The TD6 designs didnt exist then.

Mark, do you have a time frame on knowing your ballpark Pricing? Also if someone has the drivers (through this discount) will you remove them off the kit?? Or is the kit an all or nothing choice??

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post #187 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark seaton View Post

the high octane, ultra high performance i would love to play with some day is a good horn + td15m in a small sealed box and a pair of td15 or maybe a single td18. The cabinet i have isn't too far from the upper section of such a beast, so maybe i will have to do some experimenting there next year.


LL
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post #188 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 08:17 AM
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^^^ nice.....is there a build thread?
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post #189 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Mark, do you have a time frame on knowing your ballpark Pricing? Also if someone has the drivers (through this discount) will you remove them off the kit?? Or is the kit an all or nothing choice??

Good question since I was under the impression that the cabinet was the "kit" until a passive crossover was designed. Considering Mark has been posting in the AE group buy thread I assumed the driver/horn/CD would be separately purchased. But you know how assumptions go...
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post #190 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Mark, do you have a time frame on knowing your ballpark Pricing? Also if someone has the drivers (through this discount) will you remove them off the kit?? Or is the kit an all or nothing choice??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Good question since I was under the impression that the cabinet was the "kit" until a passive crossover was designed. Considering Mark has been posting in the AE group buy thread I assumed the driver/horn/CD would be separately purchased. But you know how assumptions go...

The parts can be purchased separately including the TD woofers through the group buy. The cabinet will be available for direct purchase on its own. When I get around to the passive crossover they will only be available fully assembled, but will be available separately. I'm still mulling over the many possibilities for an active option. Pricing will be available by Friday when we display the cabinets at RMAF (main floor, should be near PE's setup).

Mark Seaton
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post #191 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Easy... Depending on your HF choice match any of the TD#M drivers in a small sealed box for midrange with a pair of TD15H/X or TD12H/X for midbass. I suspect John's own pick would be a pair of TD6's + ribbon + 2xTD15. The high octane, ultra high performance I would love to play with some day is a good horn + TD15M in a small sealed box and a pair of TD15 or maybe a single TD18. The cabinet I have isn't too far from the upper section of such a beast, so maybe I will have to do some experimenting there next year.

Mark,
Since you have some experience with TD drivers, what is your opinion about a healthy operating ranges of the TD12 or 15M. For example, would you demand a TD15M or TD12M to cross at 1.5k in a personal design? Or would you choose a horn/CD combination that would cross lower? Which avenue would you be more comfortable with given the performance of these AE drivers.
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post #192 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 09:42 AM
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Thanks Mark! Your 15" cabinet design looks great and is my current top choice for LCR, but I am concerned about a matching surround design. I know its early in the process, but if I were to invest in some 10's for surround duty do you have any near future(~6 mo.) plans to design a 10" cabinet?

Thanks
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post #193 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Thanks Mark! Your 15" cabinet design looks great and is my current top choice for LCR, but I am concerned about a matching surround design. I know its early in the process, but if I were to invest in some 10's for surround duty do you have any near future(~6 mo.) plans to design a 10" cabinet?

Thanks

There will definitely be a 10" + waveguide enclosure as I had mentioned on the AE forum:
Quote:


"I've read in various places that the 15/12" question has come up a few times related to any kit or cabinet I might offer. I wanted to confirm that I will make available a cabinet for the TD-15" & TD-12" drivers with the QSC horn available through Parts Express. If a suitable SEOS horn is available, we'll make at least one combo with a 15/12" also available. I will also confirm that I will work up a similar design with one of the potential SEOS or eighteen sound XT1086 waveguides with a TD10."

I won't make any promises yet on passive crossovers, but interest, availability and demand will dictate what I develop in the limited time I have available. With the discussion of DIYers with a basic measurement setup shouldn't have to work too hard if there are related passive crossover designs already out there for the same waveguide/CD combo.

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post #194 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Easy... Depending on your HF choice match any of the TD#M drivers in a small sealed box for midrange with a pair of TD15H/X or TD12H/X for midbass. I suspect John's own pick would be a pair of TD6's + ribbon + 2xTD15. The high octane, ultra high performance I would love to play with some day is a good horn + TD15M in a small sealed box and a pair of TD15 or maybe a single TD18. The cabinet I have isn't too far from the upper section of such a beast, so maybe I will have to do some experimenting there next year.

Thanks for the response Mark.

I believe your are not far from what John would like considereing the work you both did with Nick Barnett's studio and his(John) recommendation to someone over at his forum about a WMTMW combination comprised of TD12S-TD6M-TPL150-TD6M-TD12S or you could substitute the 12's for 15's. John apparently likes ribbons.

I like both ideas!

What HF horn/CD would you choose Mark?
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post #195 of 768 Old 10-12-2011, 11:58 PM
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^^^ nice.....is there a build thread?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1177051

Not much detail really though.....
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post #196 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 09:23 AM
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Way off topic here...

John (or Mark I guess),

I'm thinking about picking up a TD18 (or 2) with the intention of using it for a bass guitar rig. Currently I am thinking roughly 6cu ft net vented to the 30-35Hz range. I would run it full range with no filtering. 5 or 6 string basses, detuned sometimes, fretless occassionally, the usual stuff. What are your thoughts on this? Will the top end be ok up to the 2-4K range? Most factory bass cabs are terrible at both extremes really so I figure it ought to be atleast as good up top worst case and way better on the low end.

Is the TD18 available in a 4ohm config?

I thought about using the 15" but for some reason the TD18 just really says use me for this app.
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post #197 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The parts can be purchased separately including the TD woofers through the group buy. The cabinet will be available for direct purchase on its own. When I get around to the passive crossover they will only be available fully assembled, but will be available separately. I'm still mulling over the many possibilities for an active option. Pricing will be available by Friday when we display the cabinets at RMAF (main floor, should be near PE's setup).

Mark,
You're planning to work around the TD15M correct? I want to put my order in for drivers in the next day or so, but want to make sure I go in the right direction. Were the boxes you built for RMAF sealed or ported?
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post #198 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

Mark,
You're planning to work around the TD15M correct? I want to put my order in for drivers in the next day or so, but want to make sure I go in the right direction. Were the boxes you built for RMAF sealed or ported?

Correct. TD15M sealed.

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post #199 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Correct. TD15M sealed.

What sealed volume are you using? I don't need to go very low, what can you get to with a 15M sealed? 50Hz easy enough?

Looks like my 12M project isn't going to pan out, but I have a pair of 15Ms I could slap into something.

Thanks.
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post #200 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 06:24 PM
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Mark what kind of extension do you expect from the TD15M in a sealed cabinet?
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post #201 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckAuger View Post

What sealed volume are you using? I don't need to go very low, what can you get to with a 15M sealed? 50Hz easy enough?

Looks like my 12M project isn't going to pan out, but I have a pair of 15Ms I could slap into something.

Thanks.

You might be able to get to 50hz with some boost if you are running active. Without eq, the TD15M will only get you an F3 around 70-80hz. I don't recall what size Seaton's boxes will be.
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post #202 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

You might be able to get to 50hz with some boost if you are running active. Without eq, the TD15M will only get you an F3 around 70-80hz. I don't recall what size Seaton's boxes will be.

Active, but analog active-no DSP on the mains. I have DSP on the subs and can run them up to 80Hz easy enough. I'm a 2 chan guy, not HT. I was hoping to build a "high octane, high performance" active 4-way this fall with the TD12M as the mid bass driver. Now it looks like "cobble together a 3-way before winter hits" Hopefully things will be back on track by spring and I can give it another go (my garage isn't heated or cooled, so I have 2 narrow windows of comfort to build).

I guess I need to poke the 15M TS into WinISD and see what's cooking, volume-wise.
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post #203 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckAuger View Post

Active, but analog active-no DSP on the mains. I have DSP on the subs and can run them up to 80Hz easy enough. I'm a 2 chan guy, not HT. I was hoping to build a "high octane, high performance" active 4-way this fall with the TD12M as the mid bass driver. Now it looks like "cobble together a 3-way before winter hits" Hopefully things will be back on track by spring and I can give it another go (my garage isn't heated or cooled, so I have 2 narrow windows of comfort to build).

I guess I need to poke the 15M TS into WinISD and see what's cooking, volume-wise.

If you are using separate subs, IMO you should just go with a TD15M + Horn 2-way. Of course that is assuming you can handle the width of the TD15M. There is no advantage to the TD12M aside from size.

In a 3 cu ft box you get a Q of ~.7 and F3 of ~80hz. I think that is perfect.

What are you using for an analog active crossover? Frankly, I think you will be disappointed in that. It is usually pretty difficult to get a good transfer function from an off-the-shelf analog crossover. It just isn't as simple as setting two 1200hz LR24 crossovers and having it sum flat. Or are you planning to model your own active analog design and build it?

I'd go either DSP active or passive frankly.
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post #204 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 07:46 PM
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did anyone modeled TD12M in a sealed or ported 2cf enclosure?
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post #205 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 07:58 PM
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"with the intention of using it for a bass guitar rig."

you know better than anybody that guitar cabs are more like musical instruments than sound reproduction devices.

a guitar cab is what they want it to sound like.

a home audio system tries to recreate that sound.

you know all this, so what is the question?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #206 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 08:09 PM
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"did anyone modeled TD12M in a sealed or ported 2cf enclosure?"

here are some rough models, sealed and ported for that drive.

either can be made into a reference quality sound system.
LL

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post #207 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

What are you using for an analog active crossover? Frankly, I think you will be disappointed in that.

Yeah, it's a Pass XVR1. It's a compromise since none of my amps have gain attenuators, and I'm trying to stay away from the additional ADC-DAC on the digital crossovers. It is what it is, and the DEQX is in a box in the closet.

Quote:


It is usually pretty difficult to get a good transfer function from an off-the-shelf analog crossover. It just isn't as simple as setting two 1200hz LR24 crossovers and having it sum flat. Or are you planning to model your own active analog design and build it?

I'd go either DSP active or passive frankly.

Thanks for your concern, I'll muddle along somehow.

Quote:


If you are using separate subs, IMO you should just go with a TD15M + Horn 2-way. Of course that is assuming you can handle the width of the TD15M. There is no advantage to the TD12M aside from size.

The original plan was for a 18" woofer, 12" midbass, 2" compression driver/horn, tweeter. Then subs to smooth that out. I'm not a fan of 2 ways. It's all been measured/modeled except the 12" was originally a 2206H. And I might do that yet, but I sort of had my heart set on the TD12M. Just haven't been able to get one to measure, or 2 to build. Totally my fault for not planning ahead, but I didn't change the plan to the TD12M until July. Just not enough time.

I can go 15"-2"CD-tweeter just as easily, I was just planning on two 9ft^3 cabs and smaller subs tucked away. Not a big deal.
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post #208 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"with the intention of using it for a bass guitar rig."

you know better than anybody that guitar cabs are more like musical instruments than sound reproduction devices.

a guitar cab is what they want it to sound like.

a home audio system tries to recreate that sound.

you know all this, so what is the question?


I'm thinking its about control. Today's electronics for instruments can can create all the distortion, slap, fuzz, etc you need. Maybe a cab with something like a TD, he can take the variable of the hardware out of the picture and have something he can count on to to what he wants every time.

This is a WAG on my part, so if I'm wrong, just file under /ignore.

BTW I'm all for distortion I couldn't imagine Van Halen "Aint talkin bout love" all cleaned up.

Yes I'm old
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post #209 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"did anyone modeled TD12M in a sealed or ported 2cf enclosure?"

here are some rough models, sealed and ported for that drive.

either can be made into a reference quality sound system.

thanks.

is that .725 cf sealed and 1cf ported?

can you do 2cf?
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post #210 of 768 Old 10-13-2011, 08:45 PM
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What do you guys think???



TD 15H
TD 6M
Ribbon
Td 6M
Td 15H

THUMPS UP or DOWN, could this work? or is post #187 better???
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