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post #1 of 94 Old 10-20-2011, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok. So I love the way the Empire sounds. I came from a Hsu VTF-3 HO and ED A5-350 among other subs. I LOVE the midbass impact the Empire has. I just want more of it, and deeper extension.

I'm trying to decide if I should keep saving for when another Empire hits the used market for a reasonable price (got mine for $650 shipped) and go duals or sell the Empire now and start putting together parts for a DIY sub. I'm tempted to go dual opposed as my living area is quite limited in space and the corner I use is nearfield for great impact and all subs placed in this spot seem to do quite well overall.

I guess I'm pretty much looking for a Submersive but without the plate amp and possibly even more impressive performance. Plus, I'm not ready to drop $2k+ in one sitting. This will be a part by part process. If I stick with dual 15's should I go TC Sounds? Are there any quality 18's available that don't cost big $$ like the $925 LMS 5400? Amp comes after drivers are selected I realize.

I have zero woodworking experience so cabinets will likely be ordered custom from ED or local shop. I plan to have drivers mounted flush, and extensive bracing where needed.

Living area is under 3100 cubic feet total.

Thanks much guys!
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post #2 of 94 Old 10-20-2011, 11:35 PM
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You can buy a bunch of sealed cabinets from eD and a bunch of dayton woofers for chump change and have very clean subs. ep4000 or inuke 3000 The epik empire has a lot of (inflated) midbass that you might be used to... but the daytons will be more accurate and have lower extension, they will play flat.

Go over to the diy forum if you want and start a thread...

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post #3 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Lol, isn't this the DIY forum?
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post #4 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 12:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Btw, inflated midbass or not, it's what sounds good to my ears, hence the move from the (probably more 'neutral') Hsu VTF-3 subwoofer. If the Dayton's stay clean, neutral, what have you but don't have the impact that I'm looking for then it's a no go.
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post #5 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 01:06 AM
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doh, thought this was subwoofer forum. No replacement for displacement for midbass. Not sure what to tell you. How big do you think these cabinets are going to be exactly? more locations the better.. ~4 cu ft for a single dayton, ~6 or 8cu ft for 2 in the same cabinet.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-190

Also the epik empire probably only sounds good because its playing midbass at levels you havent experienced.

probably would be cheaper to do two dual 6cu ft opposed from eD, get an ep4000, 4 of those woofers.

thats what i would do. Maybe some might recommend a JBL 15" GTi drivers, not sure how those do in a sealed cabinet

Want to measure your subwoofers? check out my dummies guide for a step by step process to Room EQ wizard
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post #6 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for being jumpy.

I can go pretty big on the box. I could've fit two a5-350's side by side in the corner so I definitely have room to work with, as long as that corner is used.

My issue with a driver such as in the link you posted is I occasionally will have little ones over who like to poke around. That would be a problem unless I had some grills made.

I prefer an inverted dust cap cone such as what the TC Sounds drivers have. I was looking at the RE XXX also but again very $$, especially if I'm buying more than one.

Is there another source for good subwoofer drivers for home use other than Parts Express?

Thanks!
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post #7 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 06:29 AM
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you can make your own grills.. its not that hard..
I myself was going to buy an empire, but I went the diy route.

For ideas on a empire clone (kinda) check my signature.. that's my build log..

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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post #8 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 08:01 AM
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The new Mach 5 audio pi 18"ers are a great deal right now. Lots of xmax and great power handling. And carbon fiber cone that looks cool! Think they are like 420 without shipping. Couple of those in a room will make most anyone more than happy. Check out the Mach 5 thread for more info.

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post #9 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 03:21 PM
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Do you have an attic above or a basement below your space?
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post #10 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 04:51 PM
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Erich h has some decent priced 18's coming out sometime soon.

You should really try and build the boxes yourself. Go to a Woodshop and offer them a few bucks to cut it up for ya. 2-4 Daytons with an ep4000 will smoke pretty much anything for even double the price it will cost ya for a commercial sub. Parts express tells you the diameter of the subs so you can spend time building your boxes and searching for used amps on eBay. Please research building a box and you will appreciate the fact you built it yourself. Many people have zero woodworking skills besides playing with themselves and still manage to pull off a decent sub box.
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post #11 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 06:50 PM
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"The epik empire has a lot of (inflated) midbass that you might be used to... but the daytons will be more accurate and have lower extension, they will play flat."

prove this.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #12 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 06:53 PM
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"No replacement for displacement for midbass."

? what?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #13 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The epik empire has a lot of (inflated) midbass that you might be used to... but the daytons will be more accurate and have lower extension, they will play flat."

prove this.

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/z...seresponse.jpg

Want to measure your subwoofers? check out my dummies guide for a step by step process to Room EQ wizard
http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html
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post #14 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Do you have an attic above or a basement below your space?

Attic, yes. Basement, no.
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post #15 of 94 Old 10-21-2011, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesM228 View Post

Attic, yes. Basement, no.

Then i suggest supplimenting your Epic with an attic installed Infinite Baffle system from 60-70hz on down. Four Acoustic Elegance IB 15's in two manifolds should do the trick.....IF you can get John to build you four of em.
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post #16 of 94 Old 10-22-2011, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm curious what you all think about this one:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=290-575

Also, what about the Dayton SA-1000 amplifier? I found one for $325 shipped. Is it on the same level as the EP4000? It has more features.
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post #17 of 94 Old 10-22-2011, 04:14 AM
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Quote:

I doubt that anyone will be listening to it outside in an open field.
Put it in a proper set up, in an appropriate room, it will look very different.
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post #18 of 94 Old 10-22-2011, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesM228 View Post

I'm curious what you all think about this one:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=290-575

Also, what about the Dayton SA-1000 amplifier? I found one for $325 shipped. Is it on the same level as the EP4000? It has more features.

More 'suited' towards pro audio applications where extreme volume yet extension to only 40hz are the goal. For this to work well in HT, you'd need either a huge enclosure or lots of eQ and power.
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post #19 of 94 Old 10-22-2011, 05:50 AM
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Sounds like what I ended up doing with my build. Essentially copying the "size/shape" of the Empire, but putting the drivers on the shorter width sides vs wider sides, with a boat load more power and better drivers. Unfortunately the AV15Hs aren't ready, though rumours are they might be in Jan/Feb but at $100 or so more per driver.

 

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post #20 of 94 Old 10-22-2011, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Are the TC drivers overpriced? No one suggested these. I was looking at the 15" dual voice coil driver on PE. About $450 each.

I'm about to list the Empire for sale. This will allow me to get started piecing together this project much quicker than saving alone.

Will the Ep4000 be able to drive two robust 15's? I know this depends on box size too.
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post #21 of 94 Old 10-22-2011, 09:24 PM
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Tc's are very expensive. Some of the best out there but you hit that law of diminishing returns. There are better dollar per displacement drivers (fi ib's come to mind). But the tc's and re xxx are the displacement kings. The Mach 5's get close for an amazing price. And the fi's are great drivers!

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post #22 of 94 Old 10-23-2011, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesM228 View Post

Are the TC drivers overpriced? No one suggested these. I was looking at the 15" dual voice coil driver on PE. About $450 each.

I'm about to list the Empire for sale. This will allow me to get started piecing together this project much quicker than saving alone.

Will the Ep4000 be able to drive two robust 15's? I know this depends on box size too.

I drive 4 drivers with the ep4000. It's all relative to the drivers capabilities and the box they are in.
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post #23 of 94 Old 10-23-2011, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesM228 View Post

Are the TC drivers overpriced? No one suggested these. I was looking at the 15" dual voice coil driver on PE. About $450 each.

I'm about to list the Empire for sale. This will allow me to get started piecing together this project much quicker than saving alone.

Will the Ep4000 be able to drive two robust 15's? I know this depends on box size too.

If the rumours that the CSS SDX 15 MKII and AE AV15H drivers are coming back on line in the next 2 to 3 months, you might want to wait for those?

But then, rumours are they've been "coming" for ages...

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #24 of 94 Old 10-24-2011, 01:47 AM - Thread Starter
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What do you guys think about the LMS 18" or Mach 5 18" vs a dual opposed 15" such as the AE drivers or similar? I'm trying to decide if one 18 will mostly beat out the dual 15's or will the two drivers have an advantage?

Hmm..I've been reading more into the LMS 18 and many folks with experience say the Ep4000 isn't nearly enough amp for it. And, if the amp is going to need a 220 volt input to work its best I think I'd probably pass on that particular setup. Would the same go for the Mach 5 Audio driver?

The ep4000 can be had pretty cheap. Do the fan mod and throw some quality 15's dual opposed in a proper sized box, should be pretty potent, no? I just want to be very happy with the sub, and not wishing I had more the next week.
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post #25 of 94 Old 10-24-2011, 07:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbuzz View Post

I doubt that anyone will be listening to it outside in an open field.
Put it in a proper set up, in an appropriate room, it will look very different.

Compared to a properly designed sealed sub in an outdoor measurement, it's lacking substantially. So yes, properly setup in-room it will look very different considering the Submersive here will be flat in a lot of rooms. The final response will change in-room, but the red gap, the difference between the two responses will remain the same in-room and it's not looking good:



18dB at 10Hz is an enormous chasm.
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post #26 of 94 Old 10-24-2011, 10:39 AM
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You guys make far too much of the Empire's top end response. Far too much. Flat anechoic response is great and all but it isn't a deal killer if the sub has a roll off or something. I'd be much more interested in the high pass filter they applied to it than the fact that it is 9db down at 20hz. It's still within +/-4.5dB from 20-300Hz.


What happens when you add an 80 or 100hz low pass to the Empire? What about when you add the effects of room acoustics and gain?
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post #27 of 94 Old 10-24-2011, 12:32 PM
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ahh, i see the point of confusion. you are comparing an equalized frequency response in the epik (big bass boost around 20hz) with another equalized frequency response in the submerrsive (designed to be pretty flat from about 20h to 200z, the -6db points) with the UN-equalized frequency response of a raw driver.

these things are not comparable.

both the epik and the submersive are dual sealed systems with reasonably strong motored drivers. eq'd the same, i'd expect them to sound more similar than different. where they will start to sound different is at their limits (excursion, power, etc.) and that doesn't show up in a simple frequency response.

if you put two drivers with reasonably strong motors in a sealed system, you can apply eq to have either response.

you can use drivers with a little less motor, but you will need a little larger box and you will lose some top end sensitivity in favor of some bottom end sensitivity.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #28 of 94 Old 10-24-2011, 12:39 PM
 
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Ricci, I think that's more what I was going for. Forget the top end, apply your 80Hz LPF as a crossover and PEQ down whatever upper end peak remains on the Empire so that they're both flat to 20Hz. You've still got a 15dB disparity at 10Hz which is enormous.

Quote:


What about when you add the effects of room acoustics and gain?

It will apply to both in-room, the low end performance gap remains the same.
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post #29 of 94 Old 10-24-2011, 01:01 PM
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I just wanted to add how great dual opposed setups are. During the exciting times of all the mfw builds I also jumped on the band wagon. I find dual opposed easier to build as well because of how the baffles line up the entire box. It's also a great way to save space. My dual opposed reach 10hz in my 2400cf room. That definitely is not at reference levels but still pretty cool either way. If your still considering building a sub I would say definitely go with a dual opposed set up no matter what driver you end up using. It seems like that is the plan already? Also I think you can use less expensive drivers and get similar results such as using something like a single LMS Ultra. Cheaper drivers are also much cheaper to power. The ultra seems very power hungry and something simple like 8x 15" DVC Daytons.

8x 15" DVC Daytons or 8x 15" Dayton HF drivers in 4 dual opposed enclosures, if you have the room, powered by 2 EP4000's will really rock the house and give you a very flat response with proper placement. That is my vote and you can get those 8 drivers for the cost of one LMS Ultra.

Just my $.02...let us know what you decide and please don't buy a sub. You will appreciate it more if you build it yourself.
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post #30 of 94 Old 10-24-2011, 02:07 PM
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Hence this comment I made. "I'd be much more interested in the high pass filter they applied to it than the fact that it is 9db down at 20hz."
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