RSS315HF-4 12" "The Raven" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 11-11-2011, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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So I'm going to be making my first 12" HT subwoofer. I'm hoping this will really excel at music reproduction, delivering tight, deep, musical bass. I've already purchased the driver and will be buying the amp in the next day or 2.

Driver:
Dayton Audio Reference RSS315HF-4 12" 4 ohm subwoofer
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-464

Amplifier:
O-Audio 500W BASH Subwoofer Amplifier
http://www.oaudio.com/500W_SUBAMP.html

Design:
John Krutke "Zaph Audio" (with slight changes) smaller amp external dimensions. Going for 2.2ft^3 net. f3 will be 36.2 Hz anechoic with a Qtc of 0.76. Driver parameters suggest sealed enclosure is optimal (Quality factor is 49)

Construction:
3/4" MDF, Solid Oak internal braces, butt-joinery with biscuits. Sanding sealer coats internal area. 3/4" homogenous (virgin) carpet padding lines the walls. 1/2" chamfer on all external edges (except rear). May have some custom brass feet made, painted black.

Finish: Mutliple coats of sanding sealer, Roll-on black truck-bed liner. Should be all black and stealthy looking.

I've been looking at some small ported enclosure designs as well, but am strongly leaning in this direction. If anyone has any suggestions or calcs to add I'd welcome that.


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post #2 of 43 Old 11-11-2011, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

So I'm going to be making my first 12" HT subwoofer. I'm hoping this will really excel at music reproduction, delivering tight, deep, musical bass. I've already purchased the driver and will be buying the amp in the next day or 2.

Driver:
Dayton Audio Reference RSS315HF-4 12" 4 ohm subwoofer
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-464

Amplifier:
O-Audio 500W BASH Subwoofer Amplifier
http://www.oaudio.com/500W_SUBAMP.html

Design:
John Krunke "Zaph Audio" (with slight changes) smaller amp external dimensions. Going for 2.1 ft^3 net. f3 will be 36.2 Hz anechoic. Driver parameters suggest sealed enclosure is optimal (Quality factor is 49)

Construction:
3/4" MDF, Solid Oak internal braces, butt-joinery with biscuits. Sanding sealer coats internal area. 3/4" homogenous (virgin) carpet padding lines the walls. 1/2" chamfer on all external edges (except rear). May have some custom brass feet made, painted black.

Finish: Mutliple coats of sanding sealer, Roll-on black truck-bed liner. Should be all black and stealthy looking.

I've been looking at some small ported enclosure designs as well, but am strongly leaning in this direction. If anyone has any suggestions or calcs to add I'd welcome that.

For incredible output w/ that setup, build a Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba Home Theater (THT) 15" wide......great output down to around 20-22hz....

Not sure if lilmike has done sims on a narrower F20 for this driver...

JSS
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post #3 of 43 Old 11-11-2011, 02:10 PM
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djk, what kind of performance are you hoping for and how big is your room?

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post #4 of 43 Old 11-11-2011, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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As far as expectations, I hope it will be better than what I have now, which shouldn't be too hard. It's a 9 year old 10" ported Klipsch (about 1 cubic foot) with 100 W amp.

I am hoping for good transient response and decent extension. The room it's in now is huge and is not likely to change for a while until we finish the basement. It's downstairs in an open floor plan, open to the stairs and upstairs hallway. The ceiling in this room is 12', 17', and 8' high (front to back) and it's 13' wide x 17' deep.

Oh, and it can't be TOO large, or my wife will freak. I think maximum dimensions would be like 36 x 20 x 20.


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post #5 of 43 Old 11-11-2011, 07:22 PM
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Isn't there already a subwoofer called "the raven" ?
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post #6 of 43 Old 11-11-2011, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mannoiaj View Post

Isn't there already a subwoofer called "the raven" ?

Yes there is, Bosso's creation.

James
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post #7 of 43 Old 11-11-2011, 07:45 PM
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Thought so. Now we have 2 ;;
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post #8 of 43 Old 11-11-2011, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I was going to name it "SR-71" based on the "stealth fighter looks" that the Dayton Reference Series possesses. But Zaph already has an SR-71 design, and I think there is a SEAS SR-71 driver as well. The Raven was just something I thought up because it's going to be all black. :/

That Tuba HT looks intriguing, but I'd have to know more about the external dimensions before I could build something like that. Sounds like from the design overview it would be 15" wide x 36" tall by 36" deep.


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post #9 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

For incredible output w/ that setup, build a Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba Home Theater (THT) 15" wide......great output down to around 20-22hz....

You crack me up. He says he's going to build a ~2ft box and, in typical AVS fashion, you reply with "but wait, if you build this ~10ft box, it will be even more awesome". Now I am waiting for the multisub folk to come in and recommend he build 3 more, add another 20A circuit for the amps, upgrade his mains to Pi3's, and look into building bass traps, acoustic panels, and skyline diffusers.

djkest: I suggest you leave this forum now before you go broke and deaf...

YID DIY
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post #10 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Yes there is, Bosso's creation.

James



The Raven is retired. The name came from the same thought the OP had, it's all black. I kept the original, which is truly one-of-a-kind. The Tumult MKII-based Raven offered more performance per cubic inch than anything I'm aware of and had the only active conductive-convection driver/box cooling system ever. It easily would have topped Ilkka's all-time CEA 2010 subwoofer list, which included some pretty good subs.

I think continuing the Raven moniker with subsequent DIY builds is a great idea.

Bosso
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post #11 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 11:27 AM
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I've built a sealed design using the same driver and amp in one cubic ft. with very good results.

Selah Audio

Thinking Inside the Box...
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post #12 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 12:31 PM
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Bosso,

Since two minds were thinking the same thing, maybe this is a type of sign for djkest to start him on a quest to make very nice subs also. If he comes close to your Ravens someday that would be a nice success.

James
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post #13 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

You crack me up. He says he's going to build a ~2ft box and, in typical AVS fashion, you reply with "but wait, if you build this ~10ft box, it will be even more awesome". Now I am waiting for the multisub folk to come in and recommend he build 3 more, add another 20A circuit for the amps, upgrade his mains to Pi3's, and look into building bass traps, acoustic panels, and skyline diffusers.

djkest: I suggest you leave this forum now before you go broke and deaf...


Only reason I suggested it is because I have modeled it in the past. I didn't say he had to build it. If he wants lots of output out of a 12" driver, it's an OPTION...in other words, he can consider it...

And your contribution is? I don't see one other than critique. Nice....

AVS forum is known for the notnyt and MK and other systems....he could just as easily have asked this at HTShack and PE Tech Talk and gotten an answer which would have probably made you happier...


djkest,

Yes, outer dimensions of a THT optimized for that driver will be 36"x36"x15". Placement for aesthetic's sake would only work well up against a wall, and could "blend in" with some fake cabinet doors in the front....if it's a tough sell...

If you want to go the sealed route, a 2 cuft box will get you a Q of around 0.7.....and provide a very friendly freq response. The driver will take about 250W before reaching Xmax at 20Hz (and below), about 108dB from 60Hz on up before boundary and room gain. Just as you said, you'd be 3dB down from that at 36.2Hz...If you highpass, you can go louder with more power. With the OAudio's 25Hz subsonic filter engaged, you can get another dB or so before running into Xmax again.

If you go vented, a ~4 cu ft box will get you more output down to 20Hz. OAudio's 300W amp would work well with it's built in 20Hz highpass for a vented box, as the driver will take 300W and just reach Xmax, and the highpass would be necessary to prevent overexcursion below 20Hz. You'd get around 109dB and extend the -3dB point down to 20Hz, again before boundary gain or room gain.

The THT will get you more output than either one, but it comes at the price of space and complexity to build. Without a highpass, it will give 112dB with 150W. Highpass at 25Hz, and that gets you to to 115dB with around 300W.

Those are the options I see with that driver and amp, I'm sure someone can model up a bandpass box with ease....

For low to medium volume music (around 75-85dB), the sealed would be a good way to go. If you see yourself wanting more volume (spl), just build another for an extra 6dB.

If you want the most output, build the horn....

For something in-between, the vented box is an option.


JSS
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post #14 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

You crack me up. He says he's going to build a ~2ft box and, in typical AVS fashion, you reply with "but wait, if you build this ~10ft box, it will be even more awesome". Now I am waiting for the multisub folk to come in and recommend he build 3 more, add another 20A circuit for the amps, upgrade his mains to Pi3's, and look into building bass traps, acoustic panels, and skyline diffusers.

ROFLZ!!!

I do sound that bad.


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post #15 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 03:37 PM
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"The room it's in now is huge..."

i would suggest a change of plans. you won't benefit from any room pressurization in a large room and with only a single sub to work with, the added extension of a sealed sub will simply be lost.

you want a ported sub because it will produce 6db or so more spl in the 25-30hz region, which is what you are probably really missing right now.

of course, the driver that you selected isn't the best for a ported design. the dayton dvc-385 will be ok with ported and with 500 watts, this will get you 116db at 30hz.

here is a 5 cubic foot enclosure with one 6 inch port that is 20 inches long which gives a tuning of 25hz. at 500 watts input, the cone moves 13mm, which is fine.

"As far as expectations, I hope it will be better than what I have now, which shouldn't be too hard. It's a 9 year old 10" ported Klipsch (about 1 cubic foot) with 100 W amp."

this will knock the snot out of what you have now. my best guess for what you have now is the red line.

"I think maximum dimensions would be like 36 x 20 x 20"

that is plenty big to build the above design and have some space left over, but not much. :-)
LL

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post #16 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

And your contribution is? I don't see one other than critique. Nice...

Wrong. My only contribution was sarcasm and funnies...but only for scott I guess.

I'll try to be funny next weekend.

YID DIY
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post #17 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Not sure if lilmike has done sims on a narrower F20 for this driver...

JSS

13" internally, 14.5" external looks like it works pretty well.

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post #18 of 43 Old 11-12-2011, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Wrong. My only contribution was sarcasm and funnies...but only for scott I guess.

I'll try to be funny next weekend.

Horrible day at work.....stain on me. Shouldn't bring it home, I guess....

Yeah, we tend to advise people on the hi side of things, much to the chagrin of well done drywall work.

JSS
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post #19 of 43 Old 11-13-2011, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the suggestions, guys!

I think the 2 cubic feet (as Zaph suggested) is nearly ideal for sealed- it gives a Q of roughly 0.76. If I go sealed that will be the size I go with.

On tech talk someone suggested 2.7 cubic feet tuned to 25-26 Hz. That gives an F3 of 25 Hz with a 2.4 dB peak I believe around 45 Hz.
I do like the idea of low, low bass though so even though this driver is more suited to sealed use, it would be great if I could get decent output in the 20s with a ported design. An advantage to this size at well is you could do the HSU thing and plug the port, turning it into a good sealed design (Qtc: 0.71) when you wanted that type of tuning instead. Like a Hybrid subwoofer. I still don't fully understand port tuning. Also from my limited understanding and reading an article by Curt Campbell, a small ported enclosure doesn't give up a lot in transient response as compared to sealed, the group delay is fairly minimal, and you do gain that efficiency and extension. So maybe this type of design would be the "best of both worlds". The ported or bass reflex design would also roll-off at 24 db/octave so the 25Hz tuned ported box might protect the woofer from overexcursion nearly as well as the sealed. I could have a very steep roll-off with both a ported design and the subsonic filter.

Curt Campbell's Article: http://speakerdesignworks.com/Sealed_v_Vented.html
Quote:


In this article, I have suggested that vented designs with small enclosures and low tuning can be an attractive
alternative to the traditional sealed box, offering advantages that may compensate for their marginally worse
transient response in many instances. The ability to plug the vent and return to a sealed box design makes it a
risk free venture.

Also sounds like the 300W O-audio amp will be plenty powerful for most designs, but is there something to be said for having extra "headroom"? Also I read the owners manual for the 300W amp and I saw nothing of a highpass filter or subsonic filter. Maybe it's a hidden feature.

The 500W amp has more controls including the adjustable subsonic filter which I think would be nice to have. (adjustable 12, 16, 20 and 25 Hz) So if I can afford the 500W I think I'll still get that. I'll just have to remember not to put the gain up to 10?


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post #20 of 43 Old 11-15-2011, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, a little update. Pics will be coming this weekend. I got the Dayton RSS315HF-4 today in the mail. Outer box was bashed up but contents were perfect. I was really impressed with the Dayton driver, it appears to be very well made, something you could easily see in a $500 or $1000 commercial sub. The surround is very thick and stiff and heavy. The cast aluminum basket is really good looking. I've seen some great subwoofers in my day (used to own an Infinity Kappa Perfect 12), but the complete package here is pretty nice!

I also purchased the O-Audio 500 watt BASH amplifier, so I'll have plenty of power for this project. At this point, I'm heavily leaning towards completely copying John Krunke's "Zaph Audio" design just about completely. I found a cardboard box that is nearly 18x18x18 and I was surprised how much bigger it seems than my current 13" cube of a subwoofer. It makes the Klipsch 10" look like a toy.

Oh, and a happy ending as well. After 8 years of faithful service, my GRANDMA is going to buy my Klipsch sub and put it to use with her classical music and jazz. I think she'll be thrilled. The rooms she'll have it in are smaller and so the room gain will be significantly more. It'll blow her away, she's never had deep bass in her 80 years of life...


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post #21 of 43 Old 12-05-2011, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Construction is underway now. A little slower than I'd like, I'm trying to take my time to avoid making mistakes: also, I have a newborn son so that takes up some of my time.

Construction: 3/4" MDF, double thick front baffle, 8 internal braces for the sides and an "H" brace for the back panel. 4 #0 biscuits for each butt-joint and 1/4" fluted dowels are also used in some places to provide extra support, mainly to secure the internal braces to the walls.

This is a work in progress.
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post #22 of 43 Old 12-05-2011, 05:17 PM
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curious: did you use screws etc to hold those braces in place or just glue them in place? Not judging just wondering
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post #23 of 43 Old 12-05-2011, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminbass View Post

curious: did you use screws etc to hold those braces in place or just glue them in place? Not judging just wondering

Hah, a good question. I am trying to limit the number of screws in this enclosure, and MDF doesn't really like screws anyway. It looked like Zaph just glued them in place. I did this, but it just didn't seem like enough. So I drilled 1.2" down diagonally through the 2x2 pine brace and into the MDF with a 1/4" bradpoint bit. Then I took a 1/4" fluted dowel and glued it in place. I did 2 dowels per brace (one on each end), and I feel a lot better about it now. I also did multiple layers of glue fillet on the edges. I was concerned the expanding dowel would crack the MDF, or that I would drill too far, but it looks like I didn't make that mistake.

Edit: You can see the dowels if you go to my Picasa link. That last picture is sloppy because I didn't vacuum yet.
Edit2: Not enough progress today to post new pics yet; also taking care of my newborn son.


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post #24 of 43 Old 12-07-2011, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Updated with more photos:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1165986...eat=directlink


H-brace in place to see how it fits- this was before I glued it to the back panel.

Amp cutout made with flush-trim bit. It's pretty, too bad it will be hidden.

Backside chamfer was hard to do with the hurricane nuts in place. this should help the woofer breathe.

Looking through the woofer hole and out the amp hole.

One thing I can't decide is if I should make the front, back, or both removable. Zaph made the front removable, but with such a large woofer hole, not sure if I need that. If I make the back removable, I could use a different amp later if I wanted to, and access the inside. Or, I could make them both fixed and scrap this enclosure if I ever stop using it. The more time I spend on making it look pretty, the worse this option becomes. Also if I use a removable front baffle, I could do a different woofer later- but i won't have as sleek an appearance- and RAVENS are sleek.

The whole thing for scale (on it's back)

It may only be 2.72 cubic feet internal (gross), but it's big compared to most store-bought subs. 19.5" deep, 18" high, 18" wide. (not counting knobs on the back)


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post #25 of 43 Old 12-07-2011, 11:36 AM
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It may only be 2.72 cubic feet internal (gross), but it's big compared to most store-bought subs. 19.5" deep, 18" high, 18" wide. (not counting knobs on the back)

It will be worth it. Once you have this set up and running you'll never want to go back to a store-bought sub again.

Chris

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post #26 of 43 Old 12-07-2011, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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It will be worth it. Once you have this set up and running you'll never want to go back to a store-bought sub again.

Thanks for the encouragement. One thing I think is crazy is so many pre-made subs on the market are in very tiny enclosures, but they are still ported- what are they tuned for, 40 Hz? Makes me wonder what the subwoofer behavior is below Fs and tuning frequency. I heard that most commercial subs are as small as possible for 3 reasons 1) cheaper to make 2) cheaper to ship from China 3) higher WAF.


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post #27 of 43 Old 12-08-2011, 08:46 AM
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It looks to me like the most conservative switch setting on the Oaudio amp (which has about 4db of boost at 23hz) will cause you to reach Xmax at only 100w or about 106dB. You can tame some of that with a resistor change and/or using the PEQ, but either one will cost you low end performance (the 4db boost does help the response curve).

I really hate to say this after you've started building (your work looks great by the way), but I liked LTD02's advice about the 15" DVC. His 116dB estimate is spot on and the difference in the low end would be significant.
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post #28 of 43 Old 12-08-2011, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks to me like the most conservative switch setting on the Oaudio amp (which has about 4db of boost at 23hz) will cause you to reach Xmax at only 100w or about 106dB. You can tame some of that with a resistor change and/or using the PEQ, but either one will cost you low end performance (the 4db boost does help the response curve).

I really hate to say this after you've started building (your work looks great by the way), but I liked LTD02's advice about the 15" DVC. His 116dB estimate is spot on and the difference in the low end would be significant.

I already purchased this driver and this amplifier, and money is a finite resource, so I guess I'll do what I can. Why they would "build in" boost and not plan on a flat response is beyond me. :/ Are you factoring in the rising impedance from the subwoofer? That should make a big difference.

Zaph did some testing with his sub in this same box (very slightly smaller internal volume and the Dayton 500W amp) and found 400W was when XMAX was exeeded at 23 Hz.

In any case I would probably be "loud enough" with 400W.. I might not even put the gain past 60%, we'll just have to see how it sounds when I get it completed.
Another choice I was thinking about doing was enlarging the box, to add a port and increase the internal volume. This would reduce my excursion, but I worry about the driver's behavior below Fs and the tuning frequency.

EDIT1: I could possibly afford to sell my Dayton Sub driver right now, and buy for example the TC sounds EPIC 12" DVC.. which coincidenally would work in my box size, except the port would end up being something like 24" or 30" long. XMAX is higher and power handling more robust, with a slightly lower FS.

I am also time-limited because the holidays are coming up, I have multiple projects to work on, and I have a newborn son as well. So.. I don't know.


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post #29 of 43 Old 12-08-2011, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, what torture, I keep second guessing myself. Now I'm thinking about selling my RSS315HF-4 and scrapping my enclosure so I can make an RSS390HO-4 in ~3.5 cubic foot ported enclosure. In my simulations with 500W of input power XMAX is never reached and it has good output down to 20Hz, even 15 Hz. Sure it's bigger but it would be much more satisfying and probably still pretty good for music.


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post #30 of 43 Old 12-08-2011, 05:45 PM
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I am so sorry for making you second guess things. The sub you are building will certainly work, and it may be that you are right about rising impedance - I am no expert there. If you proceed just be careful and use the PEQ alot (-7dB or so at 23hz) when you first start cranking it up. I will say that when I checked two subs wired in series it was a much better match up between amp and drivers. A sealed 12" just isn't going to have a lot of deep bass. Great for music, better control, but not deep for LFE stuff most HT guys want. You do have to factor in that I am a convert who believes strongly in ported subs for home theater (not necessarily for music) so you have to consider that. I've gone from two sealed 12" subs to two ported 12" subs (both TC Sounds) and am currently building a 15" ported sub. The way this disease is progressing it will probably turn into two if it works out well. It's like that commercial where you can't eat just one... and you happen to have a big room to fill up with bass.

In WinISD there is a way to model the filters and the info I posted in that Oaudio thread is accurate and I believe I am modeling them right. I think most people who even bother to consider the HPF's effect on the response simply model the amps with a .707 Q and either a 2nd order or 4th order HPF at something like 18hz - and that may be what the latest version of the PE BASH amp is shipping with - I don't know. But a lot of plate amps come with boost and I think it's important to factor it all into the modeling so you don't damage your driver the first night you start cranking it.

The thing is, the 4dB of boost in the 25hz setting seems to do some good things for your sub's response. You can detune the boost with a resistor change and get the filter Q down from 1.42 to 1.0 and that helps the power handling a lot. But the bass extension you get with the boost is reduced too. At that point it wouldn't be that much different than the filter in the PE amp (1db of boost instead of flat - if the PE amp is really flat that is).

If you do decide to start over, take a look at that 15" DVC in 5-6 cu ft. It is really pretty impressive and might be all any mildly insane enthusiast would ever want. Another option is the CSS Trio12 in 4.3 cubic feet tuned to about 20hz - that is essentially what my first ported subs were (I drive two with one Oaudio 500w amp) and they do very well, I just happen to want more.

The more I model with the Oaudio the more I like it, but it does frustrate me that there is so little information out there on the filters and PEQ. Most guys running sealed subs with the Oaudio have good things to say about their resuilts, but a lot of them have very high excursion drivers too so it's hard to say how your combination is going to work out. But it will work - just be careful. And who knows, you may find that it all works out fine and I'm all wet on the modeling.
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