Data-Bass version 2 is live - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 244 Old 10-31-2012, 05:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

When I first had two subwoofers, I placed them in a stereo configuration. Everything sounded much more even, localization of the subs wasn't an issue anymore... Then after 3 days I found out I had one of them muted the whole time. What you see is what you hear.

Amen.

I once had a listening group to test some of the wild theories that perpetuate.

One of the goals was to see if the folks who claimed that they could localize the subs if they were crossed any higher than 40 Hz (insert whatever golden ear cross point you've heard being tossed around), so the listeners were all of that sort, self-proclaimed that is.

I used Sting's Brand New day DTS 5.1 version, track #3, Big Lie, Small World. I played the song and asked listeners to point to where they thought the low end was coming from. Everyone pointed to the subs, which were in the front left and right corners.

I then flipped a switch that shut the FL/FR mains off and everyone immediately turned around and pointed to the rear speakers. The front right sub was being fed a summed mono signal and crossed at 100 Hz and the front left sub was not connected.



Localization is not the subject of the paper, nor is it the effect that you can notice.
J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 244 Old 10-31-2012, 05:27 PM
Member
 
TimVG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Then what's it all about? It's about perception of bass below 90hz from a certain location, or am I wrong?
TimVG is offline  
post #183 of 244 Old 10-31-2012, 08:27 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,608
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 281 Post(s)
Liked: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass
It's interesting to note, though no one ever talks about it, Griesinger created the perfect LF output config in the MC-12 for the purpose of making his 'Bass Enhance' idea easier to implement. Keeping the .1 channel discrete is essential to preserving the LF soundfield created by Bass Enhance for the same reasons it's necessary to keep the mono .1 channel out of stereo subs.

Bass Enhance works by having left and right ears hear different bass signals from side-located left and right speakers.

In what way is mono .1 similar?

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #184 of 244 Old 10-31-2012, 09:15 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,717
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 491 Post(s)
Liked: 1121
without putting the microphones in a binaural dummy head and measuring each one independently, how can any measurement be claimed to be an accurate representation of what a human being would be hearing/feeling/sensing sitting in that position?

how does one adjust for the sound transmitted through our bones, our feet, or through our jaw impact with respect to all of this?

for example: a dynamite blast in the ground shakes a concrete structure, but registers hardly any spl. an equivalent spl air blast does not shake the structure anywhere near as much as the dynamite even though it sounds much louder.

i'm kind of thinking that air pressure based subharmonics are incomplete and that direct coupling with enormous power is what is required for full life representation.

i suppose that this could be measured with an accelerometer mounted under the seat on the floor. just thinking out loud.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #185 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 07:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass
It's interesting to note, though no one ever talks about it, Griesinger created the perfect LF output config in the MC-12 for the purpose of making his 'Bass Enhance' idea easier to implement. Keeping the .1 channel discrete is essential to preserving the LF soundfield created by Bass Enhance for the same reasons it's necessary to keep the mono .1 channel out of stereo subs.
Bass Enhance works by having left and right ears hear different bass signals from side-located left and right speakers.
In what way is mono .1 similar?

I don't understand the Q. Where in the quote do I say mono .1 is similar?

What I said is that it's essential to successful implementation of Bass Enhance to keep the .1 channel OUT of the L/R bass outputs, keeping in mind that Bass Enhance is not a stereo bass presentation. That's why it's called Bass Enhance and not Stereo Bass.

Bass enhance requires 3 SW outputs; L, R and LFE (.1).
bossobass is offline  
post #186 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 07:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I have noted some in the past, and included waterfalls of same. Your response went along the lines that everyone uses mono bass management, so who cares.
You can research obvious stereo in content just as easily as I can. Just use Spectrumlab if you are interested (and you are not)!

As I said in an earlier post that took and old post of mine out of context; I set up a system that monitored where the bass was being redirected from 10 years ago, so please don't approach this discussion in your usual way of telling me what I'm interested in. In an normal discussion, most folks ASK someone what they're interested in.

You're mistaking bass in the front channels (or whatever channel) for stereo bass.

Nearly every CD on the shelves has bass in the L and R channels but they're panned to center, so, NOT stereo bass. If the bass is a mono source, it doesn't matter what channel(s) it's sent to, it does not magically become stereo or any other psycho-acoustic dimension.

This is what Griesinger set out to do, to take that center-panned mono bass (what he refers to as bass that "almost always appears to be coming from "inside the head"), split the center panned bass into L&R subs and use phase shifting to trick the brain into thinking it was mixed stereo, or, at least, not from 'inside the head'. It's extremely room, placement and seating position-dependent, which is a nice way of saying it usually doesn't work.

Let's focus on the source that has bass that pans with the higher frequency cues. Can you name some?
bossobass is offline  
post #187 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 07:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 1,779
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Was Rebase Routing ever in stereo? I don't see that mentioned in the instructions written by Bosso!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1644671-Subwoofer-Setup-Guide&s=122e789fc5a148c1078d3af1e51f3a3a
The guide was later updated and included stereo subs. However, I see that the "Rebase Routing" did not include stereo subs and its implementation was so that "you'll be able to have a bottom feeding LFE monster and a tight, musical subwoofer in the same system, as, contrary to some subwoofer manufacturer's hype, one subwoofer design cannot do both exceptionally well." I know Bosso (and probably everyone else) has changed views on this. biggrin.gif

Bosso, I just checked a PM I received from you back in November of 2008 and you recommended I use mono over stereo subs and provided the reasons why. I was just getting started with setup, measuring, and EQ and your PM was very helpful and went beyond my questions in explanation. Thanks.

Subwoofer Setup Guide by Bossobass.pdf 42k .pdf file
desertdome is online now  
post #188 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 08:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

without putting the microphones in a binaural dummy head and measuring each one independently, how can any measurement be claimed to be an accurate representation of what a human being would be hearing/feeling/sensing sitting in that position?
how does one adjust for the sound transmitted through our bones, our feet, or through our jaw impact with respect to all of this?
for example: a dynamite blast in the ground shakes a concrete structure, but registers hardly any spl. an equivalent spl air blast does not shake the structure anywhere near as much as the dynamite even though it sounds much louder.
i'm kind of thinking that air pressure based subharmonics are incomplete and that direct coupling with enormous power is what is required for full life representation.
i suppose that this could be measured with an accelerometer mounted under the seat on the floor. just thinking out loud.

Movies are not in any way similar to a recording of a live concert or other music event.

Just as the video half of the movie is psycho-visual, the sound is psycho-acoustic.

Using your example, dynamite is not an incendiary explosive, yet it almost always is in a movie because the flame makes it look more dramatic.

The audio is likewise almost always a synthesized version, even if it starts with a recording of the actual event. Let's face it, if it were 100% real and your home system offered 100% faithful reproduction, the experience would send you to the emergency room.
bossobass is offline  
post #189 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 08:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The guide was later updated and included stereo subs. However, I see that the "Rebase Routing" did not include stereo subs and its implementation was so that "you'll be able to have a bottom feeding LFE monster and a tight, musical subwoofer in the same system, as, contrary to some subwoofer manufacturer's hype, one subwoofer design cannot do both exceptionally well." I know Bosso (and probably everyone else) has changed views on this. biggrin.gif
Bosso, I just checked a PM I received from you back in November of 2008 and you recommended I use mono over stereo subs and provided the reasons why. I was just getting started with setup, measuring, and EQ and your PM was very helpful and went beyond my questions in explanation. Thanks.
Subwoofer Setup Guide by Bossobass.pdf 42k .pdf file

Thank you for the research.

Yes, way back when, when anyone inquired about what sub to buy, the 1st question was 'what % music vs movies?' that was just a reflection of the reality of what subs were available and the prevailing conventional wisdom. Yes, a lot has changed since then.

When I wrote that guide in 2002 I firmly believed that a sealed system of multiples was the only practical way to achieve full bandwidth reproduction at reference levels. It was virtually impossible to say that out loud in 2002 without being tarred and feathered, or as Tom Vodhanl once put it "quit talking tweako-fast bass... why don't you just put on a pair of headphones with a 30 Hz filter and leave...", and that was one of his kinder comments.

Nice to see Tom's 1st product out of non-compete is a sealed sub with no HPF. So yes, lots has changed, thank goodness. smile.gif
bossobass is offline  
post #190 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 08:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Was Rebase Routing ever in stereo? I don't see that mentioned in the instructions written by Bosso!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1644671-Subwoofer-Setup-Guide&s=122e789fc5a148c1078d3af1e51f3a3a
The guide was later updated and included stereo subs. However, I see that the "Rebase Routing" did not include stereo subs and its implementation was so that "you'll be able to have a bottom feeding LFE monster and a tight, musical subwoofer in the same system, as, contrary to some subwoofer manufacturer's hype, one subwoofer design cannot do both exceptionally well." I know Bosso (and probably everyone else) has changed views on this. biggrin.gif

Bosso, I just checked a PM I received from you back in November of 2008 and you recommended I use mono over stereo subs and provided the reasons why. I was just getting started with setup, measuring, and EQ and your PM was very helpful and went beyond my questions in explanation. Thanks.

Subwoofer Setup Guide by Bossobass.pdf 42k .pdf file



Bosso quote on stereo bass:

"Of course, if you like stereo CD formatted, live acoustic types of music, this configuration definitely adds to the
listening experience with a sense of realism and added space, or air. I've used this setup and found this to be
the case."
J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
post #191 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 09:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I have noted some in the past, and included waterfalls of same. Your response went along the lines that everyone uses mono bass management, so who cares.
You can research obvious stereo in content just as easily as I can. Just use Spectrumlab if you are interested (and you are not)!

As I said in an earlier post that took and old post of mine out of context; I set up a system that monitored where the bass was being redirected from 10 years ago, so please don't approach this discussion in your usual way of telling me what I'm interested in. In an normal discussion, most folks ASK someone what they're interested in.

You're mistaking bass in the front channels (or whatever channel) for stereo bass.

Nearly every CD on the shelves has bass in the L and R channels but they're panned to center, so, NOT stereo bass. If the bass is a mono source, it doesn't matter what channel(s) it's sent to, it does not magically become stereo or any other psycho-acoustic dimension.

This is what Griesinger set out to do, to take that center-panned mono bass (what he refers to as bass that "almost always appears to be coming from "inside the head"), split the center panned bass into L&R subs and use phase shifting to trick the brain into thinking it was mixed stereo, or, at least, not from 'inside the head'. It's extremely room, placement and seating position-dependent, which is a nice way of saying it usually doesn't work.

Let's focus on the source that has bass that pans with the higher frequency cues. Can you name some?


I had a similar discussion with Sanjay years ago, and stereo is not limited to 2 channel stereo (according to Sanjay). I suppose mullti-channel audio is the current wording.

There are plenty of examples.

Here is a waterfall that I did that was an evaluation of correlated bass in the various sound channels of a specific Star Trek scene. However, if you use the 400% magnify function of IE you can easily see that there is a time difference between peaks on the L & R channels (Blue = Left, Red = Right) as well as differences in bass content (AKA non-correlated content with time differences which is stereo). Center is different also.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/2370#post_21555729
J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
post #192 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,101
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Nice to see Tom's 1st product out of non-compete is a sealed sub with no HPF. So yes, lots has changed, thank goodness. smile.gif

Yep...Tom mentioned that his views have shifted somewhat over the last 10 years in a conversation we were having. Mine have modified quite a bit as well.
Ricci is offline  
post #193 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 10:46 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,608
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 281 Post(s)
Liked: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

What I said is that it's essential to successful implementation of Bass Enhance to keep the .1 channel OUT of the L/R bass outputs, keeping in mind that Bass Enhance is not a stereo bass presentation. That's why it's called Bass Enhance and not Stereo Bass.
Bass enhance requires 3 SW outputs; L, R and LFE (.1).

OK now I understand what you meant.

But I don't understand its rationale either.

If the side subs are cable of dealing with the mono LFE, why would it compromise the BE effect?

Speakers can after all reproduce more than one signal at a time.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #194 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Member
 
sundownz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Good work on the site Ricci -- I just noticed today that the SA-15 was on there.

- Jacob Fuller
sundownz is offline  
post #195 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 02:09 PM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 14,053
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Liked: 906
Quote:
Originally Posted by sundownz View Post

Good work on the site Ricci -- I just noticed today that the SA-15 was on there.

And the Zv318d1 which tested very well.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=79

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

Plan9Reloaded Co-host

Listen to the Plan9Reloaded Gaming and Technology Podcast (may contain NSFW language)

https://soundcloud.com/plan9reloaded/sets/podcast - direct pod link

http://plan9reloaded.com/site/ - main website

Scott Simonian is offline  
post #196 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 02:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 49th parallel
Posts: 2,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

how does one adjust for the sound transmitted through our bones, our feet, or through our jaw impact with respect to all of this?

IIRC, I have read somewhere that bone conduction into the ear canal is ~ 40 db down from what enters the ear. ( unmuffled )

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
michael hurd is offline  
post #197 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

OK now I understand what you meant.
But I don't understand its rationale either.
If the side subs are cable of dealing with the mono LFE, why would it compromise the BE effect?
Speakers can after all reproduce more than one signal at a time.

The last thing I want to do is get into defending Lexicon's matrixed bass scheme. It never made much sense to me just as ProLogic (or Lexicon's Logic 7) is, IMO, a pale facsimile of discrete surround sound and should quietly take its place in history along with the 78 rpm Victrola.

But, to briefly answer your question, BE requires meeting extremely specific and narrow parameters. Any bass mixed in the LFE channel (presumably for its intended purpose of boost or discrete additional low end), when thrown into the mix, can collapse the matrix.

It is specifically for bass that's found in 2 channel music that has been put into both L&R channels and panned to center (as it is in 99% of modern recordings), giving the Griesinger-described "bass in the center of the head" result. Griesinger contends (correctly) that in a live situation, even though the bass guitar is run through a mono amplifier, it never results in a "center of the head" listening experience, thus the BE matrix scheme.
bossobass is offline  
post #198 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 02:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I had a similar discussion with Sanjay years ago, and stereo is not limited to 2 channel stereo (according to Sanjay). I suppose mullti-channel audio is the current wording.
There are plenty of examples.
Here is a waterfall that I did that was an evaluation of correlated bass in the various sound channels of a specific Star Trek scene. However, if you use the 400% magnify function of IE you can easily see that there is a time difference between peaks on the L & R channels (Blue = Left, Red = Right) as well as differences in bass content (AKA non-correlated content with time differences which is stereo). Center is different also.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/2370#post_21555729

The only way I'm aware of recording stereo bass is with multiple mics, live-to-2 track.

Since electric bass is direct-injected as a mono signal, it cannot be converted into stereo bass by using a joystick at the mixing board.

LF effects in any number of channels are also mixed into those channels as a mono signal. It's just bass mixed into whatever channel for whatever reason, most of which have been discussed and none of which have to do with spatial perception.

Regardless of the scheme or how many channels, audio reproduction is all psycho-acoustic and can never replicate the real event.

I prefer not to limit the bandwidth by 3 octaves (as they did in your cited paper) to panning a limited bandwidth mono bass signal (what they are incorrectly calling 'stereo bass').
bossobass is offline  
post #199 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,101
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by sundownz View Post

Good work on the site Ricci -- I just noticed today that the SA-15 was on there.


Thanks Jake. Its a good drive for the money. I was going to try it in a PR enclosure but it was on loan and I had already had it for many months. Ran out of time.
Ricci is offline  
post #200 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 03:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I had a similar discussion with Sanjay years ago, and stereo is not limited to 2 channel stereo (according to Sanjay). I suppose mullti-channel audio is the current wording.
There are plenty of examples.
Here is a waterfall that I did that was an evaluation of correlated bass in the various sound channels of a specific Star Trek scene. However, if you use the 400% magnify function of IE you can easily see that there is a time difference between peaks on the L & R channels (Blue = Left, Red = Right) as well as differences in bass content (AKA non-correlated content with time differences which is stereo). Center is different also.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/2370#post_21555729

The only way I'm aware of recording stereo bass is with multiple mics, live-to-2 track.

Since electric bass is direct-injected as a mono signal, it cannot be converted into stereo bass by using a joystick at the mixing board.

LF effects in any number of channels are also mixed into those channels as a mono signal. It's just bass mixed into whatever channel for whatever reason, most of which have been discussed and none of which have to do with spatial perception.

Regardless of the scheme or how many channels, audio reproduction is all psycho-acoustic and can never replicate the real event.

I prefer not to limit the bandwidth by 3 octaves (as they did in your cited paper) to panning a limited bandwidth mono bass signal (what they are incorrectly calling 'stereo bass').


There was no limit to bandwidth in that paper. Was there any need to test 200 Hz, 500 Hz, 1000 Hz and on and on and on?

By extension, according to your rules there is no such thing as a stereo recording. Bass, midrange or treble sounds recorded with a microphone (or a generated sound) then mixed with other instruments, voices and sound effects regardless of the number of channels used is not stereo. Locating uncorrelated or correlated content on multiple channels will not give you stereo or multichannel sound. Everything is all just panned mono.

I guess that settles everything the Bossopedia way!


Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereophonic_sound
J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
post #201 of 244 Old 11-01-2012, 07:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,608
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 281 Post(s)
Liked: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

... just as ProLogic (or Lexicon's Logic 7) is, IMO, a pale facsimile of discrete surround sound and should quietly take its place in history along with the 78 rpm Victrola.

Of course, but DPLIIx and L7 are for program material which is only 5.1, which is to say most of it.

Some of the best front-rear panning and rear effects that I've experienced were when I had L7.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #202 of 244 Old 11-02-2012, 05:36 AM
Member
 
sundownz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Thanks Jake. Its a good drive for the money. I was going to try it in a PR enclosure but it was on loan and I had already had it for many months. Ran out of time.

If you want to try some other stuff from us let me know (E series, SD-2 series, more of the SA series) -- I like the site biggrin.gif

- Jacob Fuller
sundownz is offline  
post #203 of 244 Old 11-02-2012, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,101
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Oh. I'm sure I'll be in touch Jake. wink.gif
Ricci is offline  
post #204 of 244 Old 11-02-2012, 11:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There was no limit to bandwidth in that paper. Was there any need to test 200 Hz, 500 Hz, 1000 Hz and on and on and on?
By extension, according to your rules there is no such thing as a stereo recording. Bass, midrange or treble sounds recorded with a microphone (or a generated sound) then mixed with other instruments, voices and sound effects regardless of the number of channels used is not stereo. Locating uncorrelated or correlated content on multiple channels will not give you stereo or multichannel sound. Everything is all just panned mono.
I guess that settles everything the Bossopedia way!
Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereophonic_sound

As usual, I have no idea what you're trying to say, except that you're saying it incorrectly.

I've been in recording studios from the age of 13. I'm fairly aware of the processes, especially where it concerns electric bass, which I play.

You say you're intimately familiar with Soundhound's take on the matter, but you post as though you actually know nothing about it, as he never referred to stereo bass as panned mono bass. He produced a stereo bass recording. I got a copy. I set up stereo bass and listened to it. THEN I commented on it.

Bottom line is, yes, if you direct-inject any mono signal, the only choice you have for 'placement' in the mix is panning. This is what the 'test' in your cited study was about. This is a no-brainer not worth arguing.

Some highlights, since you haven't actually read the paper:
Quote:
6. Informal listening tests- Binaural 25-100 Hz.

"...the results were most effective at 56 Hz and higher."

"Full range music recorded using spacial microphone techniques with a head spaced main microphone (Panambiophonic 4.0)... "

"Widely spaced microphones such as those advocated by Griesinger would produce a more pronounced effect, coincident microphones, none."

The differences between a mono panned signal (sine waves, modulated with a beat frequency) and actual stereo bass are clearly delineated in the test. Sorry you can't see the difference.

No panned mono bass signals movie soundtracks were used in the listening test.

The 1st 3 octaves were chopped because the listeners' response drops to 20% below 56 Hz, even in a controlled environment with a very controlled source.

Back to my point... if those cited recordings (all of them being live to 2 or 4 track using "spacial microphone techniques") are the ones you prefer, you should start your campaign to make them mainstream immediately and elsewhere instead of misrepresenting them here, and good luck with that.

For anyone interested, here is a archived discussion that Soundhound posted in 2004, which, as he mentions, was a repost of a thread he started at Home Theater Forums in 2002, in which he was tarred and feathered and run off the boards:

http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/archive/index.php/t-401301.html

Here is an excerpt from the 1st posts for anyone interested. Please note the technique of microphone recording of a live music performance and no mention of panned mono electronic bass:
Quote:
An example - suppose that you have a group of performers on a stage and they are being recorded by two or three omni directional microphones in front about 15 feet away, which is a common technique. Now say you have someone playing a bass drum or string bass on the extreme left of the stage. The sound of that instrument will reach the left microphone earlier than the right microphone. Considering the frequency of the instruments will be be around 30 Hz in the case of the bass drum and 40 Hz in the case of the bass, the delay in the sound reaching the left and right microphones will be as much as half a wavelength. If you were to play this with a single subwoofer, or two subs with the bass between the channels electronically summed by the crossover as it is when you use the "sub/LFE" output on your pre/pro, this acoustic delay would simply cause peaks and dips in the response of the bass from that instrument. However, if you use stereo subs and are hearing ture stereo bass, this delay between the sound reaching the left and right microphones is heard as natural acoustic mixing of the bass frequencies from those instruments in the listening room, just as it did in the original recording venue.

Since this has been exhaustively discussed over a decade ago, I'm done with the hijack of Josh's thread here and the subject in general. The info is all in archives for those who are interested. I just did not want to be misquoted from 10 years ago and especially wanted to clear up the "I know everything about Soundhound" BS, for the record. Without guys like SH, the progression from being totally in the dark about bass management, subs, etc., would have been a lot slower process.

Anyone who thinks panned electronic bass is prevalent in movies soundtracks, and who also believes that it's important to reproduce according to JPC or anyone else's opinion, it is a very simple setup. Just run your FL & FR as 'large' and take the pre out of each of those channels into an active crossover, sending the low end of that crossover to a 'L' and a 'R' sub, which you need to place one on each side of your seat and watch Star Trek.

Since JPC will never do that and report back his findings, we'll have to wait until someone else goes through the trouble to tell us if it was worth the effort.
bossobass is offline  
post #205 of 244 Old 11-16-2012, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,101
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Test results for the Dayton RS18-HO in a sealed box are public.

Also I finally revisited the SDX-15 drivers from CSS and put one into the tiny 15" sealed box in order to get the measurements up to current DB standards. Those results are now available as well. (Only one old test left to revisit and that is the XXX sealed.)

Have a great weekend. smile.gif
Ricci is offline  
post #206 of 244 Old 11-16-2012, 02:59 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 10,048
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 595 Post(s)
Liked: 576
Should we read anything into the fact that you got the Dayton well after the 18" SI HT, but there are no in box results for the SI HT yet?
Stereodude is offline  
post #207 of 244 Old 11-16-2012, 03:29 PM
Bass Enabler
 
Scott Simonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 14,053
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 692 Post(s)
Liked: 906
I was hoping to see both the SI and Dayton go up this weekend but I'm just fine with the 18HO results soo...

New XXX results will be fun to play with on site.

Thanks for the hard work, Josh. Have an awesome weekend! smile.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

Plan9Reloaded Co-host

Listen to the Plan9Reloaded Gaming and Technology Podcast (may contain NSFW language)

https://soundcloud.com/plan9reloaded/sets/podcast - direct pod link

http://plan9reloaded.com/site/ - main website

Scott Simonian is offline  
post #208 of 244 Old 11-30-2012, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,101
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Ok...Some new stuff is added besides the SI HT18

Driver tests...

MTX 9515-44 (This is actually a really nice driver. Too bad the cone has a giant gaudy logo on it. I believe they are discontinued now too. This is what Danley has in their TH50 and 40 of in their Matterhorn)

RE Audio XXX 18D2 current version with overhung voice coil. That is right...
Apparently at some point RE made a running change to the drivers and they appear to no longer be split coil and are instead overhung now. I noticed this a few weeks back when i pulled a driver to test in the sealed enclosure. These apparently are the ones with the RE logo instead of the XXX logo. My last 2or 3 that I bought have the RE logo instead of XXX. I do not know what if anything else may have changed but it appears to be just the coil itself unless there is something done to the motors which I very much doubt. You can judge the differences for yourself by looking at the test data.

Sealed enclosure tests...

MTX 9515-44. Again surprisingly better than I thought it would be. I am going to give this a bigger enclosure to work in and see what happens.

XXX split coil version

XXX overhung coil version (These perform similar in many aspects and quite differently in others. Use the graph overlays to compare. )
Ricci is offline  
post #209 of 244 Old 11-30-2012, 01:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
keager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 17
You gotta be kidding me. I have two of each version then. And yes, in my IB manifold I have one with xxx on the cone and one with re on the cone. I will have to look at the ones that arent installed to compare. Thanks Ricci.
keager is offline  
post #210 of 244 Old 11-30-2012, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,101
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 219
I know right? They havent even updated the specs on the site.

I would say we could all do some trading to get all of one type or the other but the bastards cost an arm and a leg to ship.
Ricci is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off