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post #721 of 1078 Old 02-18-2014, 02:08 PM
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I see a 3X7 slot works for the 12" Titanic MK4 as a start. What size is that slot?

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post #722 of 1078 Old 02-18-2014, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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That slot was just a test. I think it was about 9" or 10" x 2", but it could be changed. I don't think you need 7x3 and it would also mean the port had to be longer.
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post #723 of 1078 Old 02-18-2014, 04:50 PM
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No a 2X9 or a 2X10 both work just fine, (10 best) that's great! As a suggestion I just couldn't get the conventional 3" vents to work with the excursion of the MK 4.


EDIT v v Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
MK4 22hz green, MK4 25hz red, HO blue, Quatro black.
mk_zps638b8abb.png

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post #724 of 1078 Old 02-18-2014, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I think the prototype I just assembled was something like 19" x 21" x 21". Net volume was around 3.2cuft tuned around 20-22hz or so. Figured it would be for a 12". I'd probably reduce it down to around 3cuft net.

Last year I asked Mr. LTD02 to hook me up with some subwoofer designs that could do good in smaller ported boxes. I'll be going back to those and start moving on them now that I'm happy with this box. Maybe they should be called:

LTD-10
LTD-12
LTD-15
LTD-18

biggrin.gif

Erich---Since different flat pack users are going to want them for different brand woofers of the same size, and perhaps with different tuning frequencies, and since the baffles are going to be two layers of 3/4" MDF (the inner layer with the through hole, and the outer cut for the driver mounting dimensions), what do you think of making each size box available for a couple of different size woofers? For instance, a 3 or 4 cu.ft. for both 12" and 15" woofers? Or are the cu.ft. requirements of a certain size woofer pretty universal (irrespective of brand and tuning frequency)? Does my question reveal my ignorance of ported design?!
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post #725 of 1078 Old 02-18-2014, 10:57 PM
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Or are the cu.ft. requirements of a certain size woofer pretty universal (irrespective of brand and tuning frequency)? Does my question reveal my ignorance of ported design?!

All drivers are different to a degree. Some do very poorly in a smaller enclosure and some do quite well. The same can be said for larger enclosures. Take the least performing driver in the graph I just posted and increase the volume of the cab X2 to 6cf. It then performs like the other drivers although 2-6dB less in output depending which driver you compare it to...

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post #726 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:07 AM
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I would also be interested in a 18" ported flat pack. Understood that the cost in both materials and shipping would be a bit pricey.

A bit off topic here guys, but has anyone graphed a performance comparison between 1 ported 18" driver and 3 of the same driver in sealed enclosures? It would take about 3 of the 18" 4 cubic ft flat packs stacked side by side by side to equal the volume of the single 18" ported design, give or take. Of course the cost of 2 additional drivers would result in the cost of the 3 sealed setup being more costly, but what about performance?
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post #727 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post

I would also be interested in a 18" ported flat pack. Understood that the cost in both materials and shipping would be a bit pricey.

A bit off topic here guys, but has anyone graphed a performance comparison between 1 ported 18" driver and 3 of the same driver in sealed enclosures? It would take about 3 of the 18" 4 cubic ft flat packs stacked side by side by side to equal the volume of the single 18" ported design, give or take. Of course the cost of 2 additional drivers would result in the cost of the 3 sealed setup being more costly, but what about performance?

12cuft tuned to 16 Hz w/ 600 watts power vs 3x 4 cuft with 3x600watts

12-20hz, they are within 1db of eachother @ ~ 114db.
By 10hz, the sealed has about 4db over the ported @ 103db.
Above 20hz, the sealed has lots more spl capping at around 127db around 70hz.
Note, that the ported is excursion limted at around 13hz.

Conclusion: sealed cost more, but you can chase the 5-15hz range which out of scope of the ported.
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post #728 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post



Conclusion: sealed cost more, but you can chase the 5-15hz range which out of scope of the ported.

I'd say that this statement is only partially true. I decided on a ported build using a UXL-18 and when compared to a sealed build at 12hz both the ported and sealed had the exact some output. But you're right at 10hz the ported cabinet is down about 3.5dB from the sealed.

Of course at 20hz the ported cabinet has about a 9dB advantage which is huge.

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post #729 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:38 AM
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Anthony, thanks for the reply. I'm no good at computing that kind of stuff!

What about only two 18" sealed verses the 1 ported? Price wise the cost would only be slightly more with the sealed setup in this case... a little more for the additional driver but probably $100 saved on the two 4 ft3 enclosures verses the single 11-12 ft3 enclosure.

I'm considering this setup for HT use, little music mostly just chasing movie LFE content.
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post #730 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:42 AM
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jb> But you're right at 10hz the ported cabinet is down about 3.5dB from the sealed.

Of course at 20hz the ported cabinet has about a 9dB advantage which is huge.


It's all going to depend on cab size and tune just how it all pans out and the benefits of one over the other depending how you look at it. The old sealed versus vented discussion. Lol

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post #731 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I'd say that this statement is only partially true. I decided on a ported build using a UXL-18 and when compared to a sealed build at 12hz both the ported and sealed had the exact some output. But you're right at 10hz the ported cabinet is down about 3.5dB from the sealed.

Of course at 20hz the ported cabinet has about a 9dB advantage which is huge.

It's more than that. You need to also consider excursion limits.
You can see that the maximum SPL ported at 10hz is excursion limited to -10db relative to sealed (and in this plot, sealed is limited by power, not excursion)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79846511/SPL.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79846511/excursion.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79846511/max%20SPL.JPG
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post #732 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

It's more than that. You need to also consider excursion limits.
You can see that the maximum SPL ported at 10hz is excursion limited to -10db relative to sealed (and in this plot, sealed is limited by power, not excursion)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79846511/SPL.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79846511/excursion.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79846511/max%20SPL.JPG

Here's a graph from LTD02 showing two UXL-18's in a sealed cabinet powered by an Inuke 6000 verses the ported cabinets that I decided to build.


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post #733 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

It's all going to depend on cab size and tune just how it all pans out and the benefits of one over the other depending how you look at it. The old sealed versus vented discussion. Lol
Pretty much :-D I think ported shines when budget is more an issue (less drivers and less amp requirements) but if you can toss more drivers and power, then for equal size box, I'd rather sealed. It comes down to if you want to have the low end being generated by a driver or port. The reason I went with 2x 18's is I can go sealed in this small room where room gain and EQ take care of the low end really well, and if I move to a place with a bigger room and need to hit 20Hz harder, I can go ported, and if a huge room LLT. All with the same driver.
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post #734 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Here's a graph from LTD02 showing two UXL-18's in a sealed cabinet powered by an Inuke 6000 verses the ported cabinets that I decided to build.
Recall that the OP said (paraphrased) "1 ported in 12 cu ft vs THREE sealed in 4cu each" I also assumed 3x the power (same power per driver in all cases)
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post #735 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 03:15 PM
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Also remember that sealed need to have EQ added and can take (demand) significantly more power, but they do have the air cushion protecting them. The graphs of ported vs. sealed don't take EQ into consideration.

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post #736 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post

Pretty much :-D I think ported shines when budget is more an issue (less drivers and less amp requirements) but if you can toss more drivers and power, then for equal size box, I'd rather sealed. It comes down to if you want to have the low end being generated by a driver or port. The reason I went with 2x 18's is I can go sealed in this small room where room gain and EQ take care of the low end really well, and if I move to a place with a bigger room and need to hit 20Hz harder, I can go ported, and if a huge room LLT. All with the same driver.

Definitely! I could go sealed in the room I'm in now no problemo albeit I went a different route as you know just so I could build another sub lol.

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post #737 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 06:20 PM
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Definitely! I could go sealed in the room I'm in now no problemo albeit I went a different route as you know just so I could build another sub lol.




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Ouch!!!!

LoL

I got it!
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post #740 of 1078 Old 02-19-2014, 10:36 PM
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erich, have you looked into freight shipping?

if the subs/flat packs could be all stacked on a pallet, that might cut the shipping down quite a bit and open the door to some of the larger ported cabs, such as the minimarty.

i really don't know squat about something like that, just figured that I'd kick it out there. i could see lots of folks ordering say a pair of speakers and a pair of sub flat packs and if they could all be put on a pallet, it would seem like that could save a lot in transportation costs, but again i don't know. ...or a couple of guys who are local to each other ordering together.

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post #741 of 1078 Old 02-22-2014, 03:53 PM
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My order from Erich should be in Monday. biggrin.gif The 18" Dual Opposing enclosure. I'll take some pictures and post them up. I'm excited! I'd like to finally hear what two of these 18"s could really do! wink.gif
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post #742 of 1078 Old 02-22-2014, 05:33 PM
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erich, have you looked into freight shipping?

if the subs/flat packs could be all stacked on a pallet, that might cut the shipping down quite a bit and open the door to some of the larger ported cabs, such as the minimarty.

i really don't know squat about something like that, just figured that I'd kick it out there. i could see lots of folks ordering say a pair of speakers and a pair of sub flat packs and if they could all be put on a pallet, it would seem like that could save a lot in transportation costs, but again i don't know. ...or a couple of guys who are local to each other ordering together.

The problem with freight (pallet shipping) lies in the residential delivery charges; generally anywhere from a $60-$120 surcharge. However, the receiver does have the option to pick the freight up removing those charges. The receiver can break down the freight for transport in a pickup truck or what ever vehicle they have.
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post #743 of 1078 Old 02-24-2014, 11:08 AM
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It arrived! biggrin.gif

Office cat checking out the box I just opened!


The sides!


Looks like Fedex made a little oopsie here, but nothing that will stop this from being used! wink.gif


Mmmm... braces and part of the baffles!


Baffles! =D


I can't wait to get started, and I do plan to finish this one, unlike my previous cabinet. Haha.
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post #744 of 1078 Old 02-24-2014, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Sad to see the damage on those corners. The 4cuft boxes weigh 62-63lbs and none of those have been damaged that I know of. Your packages weighed 60lbs and I think 39lbs. It looks like that box with the big panels was dropped really......really hard to do that kind of damage.

Yours was the first shipped and the only shipped at this point, so you were the guinea pig. smile.gif I'll have to think of a different way to ship those. The 4cuft boxes are packaged in an 8" tall stack so the delivery guys can't actually get their fingers around the box and lift it with just their fingers. They have to nearly bear hug the package, so they are more likely to sit them down the same way.

But the thinner heavier boxes can be gripped and picked up by just clamping your fingers on the sides and lifting straight up........then dropping it straight down on the corners. I was worried about that.

Looks like I'll package some more foam on the side edges. I'll send you an email to see if you need new panels. Be proud for being the test subject! biggrin.gif
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post #745 of 1078 Old 02-24-2014, 05:06 PM
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Well it was an honor being your guinea pig, it was for science! biggrin.gif

Also responded to the message.

The baffles and braces all came out with out any issue. It's just that those corners for the sides that got hurt. I have seen worse but I still think those can be saved, unless it for some reason will cause structural instability from the sheer power of dual Dayton drivers. eek.gif
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post #746 of 1078 Old 02-24-2014, 05:39 PM
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Which Dayton drivers and amp are you using?
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post #747 of 1078 Old 02-24-2014, 05:57 PM
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Well it was an honor being your guinea pig, it was for science! biggrin.gif

Also responded to the message.

The baffles and braces all came out with out any issue. It's just that those corners for the sides that got hurt. I have seen worse but I still think those can be saved, unless it for some reason will cause structural instability from the sheer power of dual Dayton drivers. eek.gif

It shouldn't be too hard to fix those corners once you've assembled the enclosure.

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post #748 of 1078 Old 02-25-2014, 06:04 AM
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Which Dayton drivers and amp are you using?

Dayton RSS460HO-4 drivers, and a Crest Audio CC4000 bridged, which with the subwoofers in series, it'll be in 8 ohm load. So the amp will only deliver 2,800 watts into 8 ohms bridged. Seems plentiful. biggrin.gif
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It shouldn't be too hard to fix those corners once you've assembled the enclosure.

That's what I am thinking. Especially since I plan to paint it, which if I have to use any filler before priming it, it'd look as if it never happened.
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post #749 of 1078 Old 04-04-2014, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Big News about ported flat packs that I think you guys will like!

Gentlemen, I've been building prototypes for big ported subwoofers for a couple months and feel like I finally nailed down a design I'm very happy with. It's an extremely flexible design, super easy to build, and fits all the goals I was hoping for. The previous prototype went together pretty easy. But the port went along the bottom and up the back panel. That's okay for big designs that would use an external amp, but for smaller designs that could use a plate amp......there was no room on the back panel to install it because the port was in the way. Not good because I wanted all the ported boxes to have about the same type of 'look' and assembly. I've finally cracked the code!

I decided on a tall square enclosure with a narrow stance and porting out the side. Basically a wall hugging design. Very flexible because even the monster 18" model only comes out in the room 15"!! So you could put 2 of these in the corners and have them firing into the center of the room, but ports shooting at you. Or switch sides and keep the woofers firing in, but ports shooting away from you. Aim the woofers into the corners, flush against the front wall facing you, facing the wall, etc, etc.

This is a ported 18" that can be tuned under 20hz. It nets about 5.8cuft after bracing.

Rear panel with rabbet joints for fail proof brace installation:




First set of interlocking cross braces:




Here's where the beefy "Stonehenge" bracing starts. There's a brace behind each of the woofer's screws:




Side wall bracing goes in:




Fold up the sides to touch the braces:




Here comes the slot port:




Jumping ahead to show the finished guts of the beast:




Front panel drops right on:




And Boom, it is completed:




Keep in mind this is just a prototype and I might end up moving some braces around on the finished models. On the smaller designs a plate amp could be installed on the back panel in a few places, but I'm guessing directly behind the woofer inside the 'stonehenge' would be easiest. biggrin.gif I'll post more details later.
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post #750 of 1078 Old 04-04-2014, 04:30 PM
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