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post #811 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gomdaf View Post

Did I, lol? Wouldn't surprise me.

So....we talking two weeks out, or two months out on deliveries smile.gif

Ha, I screwed up my post and forgot who said what or wanted the larger boxes. Wood glue is messing with my head, but you can take the blame either way. biggrin.gif

I want to get one of the bigger ones assembled, then test it. After that they'll start getting cut. I'd like to say 3 weeks, but that goes by so fast that it might be safer to guess a month. This is a busy time of year for me, but the time frame should be a safe bet if testing goes okay.


Still debating on Baltic birch. My math says if it's 29.5" and 15.5" deep that would be 6.35cuft before subtracting the ports. Port volume is 1.27cuft so we'd be down to 5.1 net. I'm not 100% sure about the MartyCube, but I think it's 6.8cuft but the port is a little different with internal braces needed due to the width. That port volume is about 1.49cuft if my math is correct. That comes out to 5.31cuft net for Marty.

To get the same 5.31 net, the narrow box needs to be 6.58cuft which comes out to 29.5" x 29.5" x 16" deep.......not sure that 16" will give a good layout on sheets of Baltic birch. If they don't, then MDF will be used, and we might as well make the box bigger at that point. The panels used for the 16" depth need to be 14.75".

29.5" panel on a sheet of Baltic leaves about 30" after the router bit. Laying 2 pieces next to that at 14.75" side by side is 29.5" before the bit width is added in. So it's literally down to about a .25" grey zone whether to use Baltic and stay at the same volume as Marty, or go MDF and a little bigger.
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post #812 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Erich, I would have picked up either two or four but cut out was for HO-18 driver which soured me. If I started all over again, I would have liked four of these dual opposed with baffle for UXL-18/SI-18. Maybe driver cut out is issue? Don't know.....just thinking on key board. biggrin.gif

Both of those woofers fit if that hard plastic gasket is removed from the frame. Using a softer foam type gasket would likely seal the box up better anyway. Some of the manufacturers say that gasket is only for looks and you still need foam tape.
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post #813 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Erich, I would have picked up either two or four but cut out was for HO-18 driver which soured me. If I started all over again, I would have liked four of these dual opposed with baffle for UXL-18/SI-18. Maybe driver cut out is issue? Don't know.....just thinking on key board. biggrin.gif

Both of those woofers fit if that hard plastic gasket is removed from the frame. Using a softer foam type gasket would likely seal the box up better anyway. Some of the manufacturers say that gasket is only for looks and you still need foam tape.

FWIW, there are a few different sources and types of edge gaskets that different companies use, so all are not equal. The harder rubber versions are both tougher to remove/replace and don't seal very well, regardless how tight you screw them down. The softer rubber gaskets seal up rather well with T-Nuts and machine screws with modest torque settings on a driver.

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post #814 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 02:05 PM
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Erich, my vote is for MDF and go a little bigger smile.gif

Any comment to my suggestion of having buyers either prepay or put down a deposit as an insurance policy that you won't be stuck with a ton of inventory?
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post #815 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 02:07 PM
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I have a potentially stupid question, bear with me, i'm trying to wrap my head around it...

What happens if you continue a port length outside of the box? Say these ports are 44 inches long internally so it's tuned to 20hz. What if you took your design, stood it up so the port is firing towards the ceiling, and put a 6 inch (or whatever length) air tight "chimney" to extend the port and lower the tune if you wanted? would somehting like that work? You could have selectable tunes based on attachments. might be a bad idea for some reason, but i'm just thinking out loud.
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post #816 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 02:07 PM
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Erich,

Question regarding the "Stonehenge" braces. What is the advantage of the dog bone shape to the 8 braces rather than just going with simple rectangles? I know there must be a reason; you wouldn't do 8 more difficult cuts if it didn't provide some benefit I'm sure.
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post #817 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gomdaf View Post

I have a potentially stupid question, bear with me, i'm trying to wrap my head around it...

What happens if you continue a port length outside of the box? Say these ports are 44 inches long internally so it's tuned to 20hz. What if you took your design, stood it up so the port is firing towards the ceiling, and put a 6 inch (or whatever length) air tight "chimney" to extend the port and lower the tune if you wanted? would somehting like that work? You could have selectable tunes based on attachments. might be a bad idea for some reason, but i'm just thinking out loud.

I might be wrong but I believe that Erich has already said that the cabinet is tuned for 20hz, it might actually even be a little lower.

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post #818 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 02:36 PM
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correct. i'm basically asking if I were to take his 20hz design and add an external extension to the port would it lower the tune? Just a brain storm, it'd be kind of neat to be able to do. It be pretty easy to craft a removable extension piece that fit onto the existing port exit. Make sense?

like what if you took a sealed 5 cuft box and just drilled a hole in the top and attached a pvc pipe and had a completely external port? In that case, besides looking absolutley stupid, would it work?
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post #819 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Both of those woofers fit if that hard plastic gasket is removed from the frame. Using a softer foam type gasket would likely seal the box up better anyway. Some of the manufacturers say that gasket is only for looks and you still need foam tape.

Agree......but that semi-hard gasket does look good. I'm using neoprene gasket underneath so hopefully it seals......
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post #820 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post

Erich,

Question regarding the "Stonehenge" braces. What is the advantage of the dog bone shape to the 8 braces rather than just going with simple rectangles? I know there must be a reason; you wouldn't do 8 more difficult cuts if it didn't provide some benefit I'm sure.

I made the hour glass shape for a couple reasons. I wasn't sure how close together 4" wide stick braces would be with one used for each screw hole. So the main reason was to make sure there was plenty of air flow in case they ended up close together. The middle is about 1.5" wide, but the ends are about 4", so the extra width on the end covers more panel area. Maybe a little weight savings because there are about 13 braces in there.

And they look kind of neat. Who doesn't like an hour glass shape? biggrin.gif
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post #821 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 03:44 PM
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Gotcha, sounds good to me.
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post #822 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomdaf View Post

correct. i'm basically asking if I were to take his 20hz design and add an external extension to the port would it lower the tune? Just a brain storm, it'd be kind of neat to be able to do. It be pretty easy to craft a removable extension piece that fit onto the existing port exit. Make sense?

like what if you took a sealed 5 cuft box and just drilled a hole in the top and attached a pvc pipe and had a completely external port? In that case, besides looking absolutley stupid, would it work?

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Didn't HSU use this concept with their "turbo" extension to one of their models a few years back?

I'm surprised we don't see more DIY subs with the opposite concept, similar to what SVS has offered on some of their ported subs where there are multiple ports but you can plug 1 or 2 of them to change the tune. With a slot port containing 2 braces (dividing the slot port into 3 sections) one could probably plug 1 or 2 of the sections to yield a different tune. Just a thought.
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post #823 of 1078 Old 04-06-2014, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post

Erich,

Question regarding the "Stonehenge" braces. What is the advantage of the dog bone shape to the 8 braces rather than just going with simple rectangles? I know there must be a reason; you wouldn't do 8 more difficult cuts if it didn't provide some benefit I'm sure.

I made the hour glass shape for a couple reasons. I wasn't sure how close together 4" wide stick braces would be with one used for each screw hole. So the main reason was to make sure there was plenty of air flow in case they ended up close together. The middle is about 1.5" wide, but the ends are about 4", so the extra width on the end covers more panel area. Maybe a little weight savings because there are about 13 braces in there.

And they look kind of neat. Who doesn't like an hour glass shape? biggrin.gif

As long as all the sand isn't on the bottom !!! smile.gif
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post #824 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 12:17 PM
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One person so far smile.gif

If he required payment be made prior to running off his units he assume far less risk on his end of course.

Make that two!  I have been trying to decide wether to find two JTR passive Captivators used or build two Marty cubes with UXL 18 drivers.

 

The JTL's at 21.5" are taller, narrower and fit better behind my sofa with room to clean (important to my wife - we have dogs that go back there).  However finding two used Caps in decent condition within local pick up distance is like taking a slow boat to China (via the dark side of the moon). The Marty Cubes at 24" deep stick out far enough from the wall to make it difficult to get back there, and surprisingly look more massive than a taller/wider similar volume box at shallower depth.

 

This is the space I have avalaible:

 

Location for two subwoofers behind the listening position.

 

 

The Captivator fits that space perfectly (if could afford to buy two new ones):

 

 

 

I have the room to go 30" tall to match the sofa rear height, 30" wide to match available wall space, and 21" deep to resemble the 18"x60"30" rear sofa table and still allow access to clean. The 24"x24"x24" Marty and 30"x30"x15" Stonehenge both give up performance that I could get from a larger box that would fit my space.  I agree with an earlier post that there are many of us that fit between the Mini Marty 5^ft size and the Full Marty 10^ft size. I have seen several threads from AVS members that planned subs at approx. 30"x30"x21"size.  I have a table saw, tools and can make my own, but I don't know enough about speaker design Xmax, port length, and box tune to come up with a proven result like the DTS-10, Captivator, or Marty Cube. I would be interested in anyone who has built one of these sending me a PM with their build thread, design plan, cut sheet and test results.

 

I really like the "Stonehenge" design and appreciate that it reduces depth to 15" by running the port along the side and base (and those wishbone braces are really cool!). However, a sub enclosure needs enough depth to provide a stable platform sufficient to brace against rocking motion induced by the inertia of a large 18" long excursion driver.  This isn't an issue in dual opposed designs because the acceleration vectors cancel each other out.  It also isn't an issue if you're going to hide these 30"x30"x15" subs behind a perforated screen and brace them to the wall. For users in a rear screen installation, the 15" depth is priceless because depth is at such a premium. However, I think the majority of us have our subs out in the room (especially beside or behind the sofa). Therefore a 15" deep sub with a powerful heavy 18" driver is less secure than the stability that a 21" deep enclosure would provide. 

 

I also agree that many of us want matching subs, so making right and left firing kits that sell as a package in pairs really makes sense. In this day and age of 4 or more subs in a system to smooth out room modes and reinforce room gain, who doesn't want at least two matching subs? It's always easier to sell two subs at once than to sell them one at a time.  It's easier to build two subs at once because all the tools and mess occur once instead of twice.

 

I like the use of Baltic birch over MDF, It's lighter to work with and the wood screws get a stronger bond into 13 laminated plys in a 3/4" sheet rather that MDF which crumbles under too much torque. It's also lighter to ship in a flat pack. Many lumber yards stock 3/4" ply with real hardwood veneers in maple, cherry, mahogany, walnut, teak, QTR teak (my favorite), with matching wood edge banding for the sides. So you could make a flat pack that's ready to stain and varnish right out of the box.

 

I definitely think that whatever Eric does, it should be optimized for the UXL-18 because it's such a popular driver, and the iNuke 300 because it's such a popular amp (or two UXL-18's and one iNuke 6000 amp for a matched pair of subs). At $530, the UXL-18 it's not much more than the other alternatives and definitely has a proven track record in multiple builds. As I understand it the LMS 5400 lends itself more to sealed designs rather than ported. So a ported UXL-18 design would sell more than any other configuration.

 

I want the efficiency of a proven ported design, the performance of a UXL-18 in a stable inert enclosure, bigger than a cube but smaller than a refrigerator, and able to fit behind the sofa (because who needs but kickers!). Eric - please consider making two UXL-18 alternatives: One at 15" for behind screen applications, and one at 21" for in room locations.  Why don't you try asking for pre-orders for both sizes, then take deposits on the version that gets more interest? That way you are not taking the risk of ending up with 34 more unsold flat packs.

 

 

Goldilocks tried the BIG sub and it was too large :eek:,

 

Then she tried the SMALL sub and it was too little :confused:,

 

Then she tried the MEDIUM sub and it was just perfect :cool:……...

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post #825 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you think you're giving up by going with the 15 or 16" depth over the 21" depth? You couldn't play two of either of those in that room without all that neat stuff falling off the walls. wink.gif

Subwoofers are more prone to walk around if they're sealed because they're really moving hard at the lower frequencies. The woofer used in a ported enclosure isn't moving as much down around the tuning frequency.
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post #826 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 01:15 PM
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My room is around 10,100^ft with cement slab for the floor, 8.5' - 14' ceilings, with glass block/stone on one wall and 3/4" shear ply under 5/8" drywall for the rest. It's a lot of room to pressurize for deep bass and no floor suspension to give a sense of vibration.  I'm using a Danley DTS-10 with a QSC 4050HD amp in the front left corner and two subs behind the listening position for reinforcement and tactile near field response at the seating position. Good observation about shaking the good stuff off the wall though (that would be a nice problem to have in a room so large).

 

Room layout and dimensions

 

Theater construction - reflective: slab/maple floors, glass block wall, stone fireplace, drywall on 3/4" ply Walls soundproofed with 3.5" solid foam and 1/4" acoustical rubber. Ceilings soundproofed with 6" solid foam, 6" fiberglass, 1.5" ply, 3" solid foam

 

39' x 49' total area with 8.5' - 14' ceilings = 10,100 cu ft Lot of volume for subs to fill with not a lot of room gain for LFE. Size and mixed shape helps minimizing room modes.

DTS-10 build. I had planned on two but my wife said no after the first was built. Can't complain, she lets me have 13 Martin Logans in the living room!

 

The Danley DTS-10 waiting for wood veneer and finishing.

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post #827 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 02:22 PM
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Eric, 

 

How would your new build at the 30"x30"x18" size you're planning compare to a Marty Cube at 24"x24"24" in my size room (both with UXL-18 driver and iNuke 6000 or QSC 5050 amp)?

 

My other option, if I didn't go DIY, is a pair of used JTR Captivators.  How would a the JTR Cap compare to these designs?

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The difference between Erich's current size with a 16" depth and what you want with an 18" as far as output would most likely not even really be audible.

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post #829 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The difference between Erich's current size with a 16" depth and what you want with an 18" as far as output would most likely not even really be audible.

Didn't you build your cubes at 30"x30"x21" ?

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post #830 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 04:23 PM
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The difference between Erich's current size with a 16" depth and what you want with an 18" as far as output would most likely not even really be audible.

I think it's all personal personal as to what amount of box volume really matters to someone. The same way 1-2db may be meaningful to someone, but unless its 3+db another person doesn't care.

There's a reason why people put drivers like the UXL-18 in such large enclosures I'm sure. If you do a search on this forum and see the mean average size enclosure people are building for a single vented UXL it's probably around 9-10 ft3. There are those with even larger ones, and sure there are some that settle for the martycube and throw it only 5 ft3. Same with other drivers. The Ultimax 18 for example. I just received an email from parts express answering some of the questions I had about the UM-18. The tech that responded suggested a 12.9 ft3 enclosure. The description on the sub on their site says 11.8 ft3. There are guys on this site however modeling them in 5 ft3 enclosures as they are with other drivers as well. I'm sure the larger, suggested or optimum enclosures provide better performance or people wouldn't be sacrificing twice the space. That said, I would think that the closer one can get to those greater volumes, the better their sub will respond. A 21" depth over a 15" depth with the other 2 dimensions at 30" equates to nearly 3 more cubic feet of internal volume, almost 60% more internal volume for the driver. That takes you from being 1/2 of the recommended volume for the driver to about 3/4 of it.

Does that make a big difference? An audible difference? I don't know. Maybe someone should put up a plot of an UXL-18 in a 5 ft3 enclosure, 6 ft3 enclosure etc every ft3 all the way up to say 13 ft3 and we can see the difference on paper.
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post #831 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 04:58 PM
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Didn't you build your cubes at 30"x30"x21" ?

No, my cabinets are 32"wide, 22"deep and 40" high.

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post #832 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 05:00 PM
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I think it's all personal personal as to what amount of box volume really matters to someone. The same way 1-2db may be meaningful to someone, but unless its 3+db another person doesn't care.

There's a reason why people put drivers like the UXL-18 in such large enclosures I'm sure. If you do a search on this forum and see the mean average size enclosure people are building for a single vented UXL it's probably around 9-10 ft3. There are those with even larger ones, and sure there are some that settle for the martycube and throw it only 5 ft3. Same with other drivers. The Ultimax 18 for example. I just received an email from parts express answering some of the questions I had about the UM-18. The tech that responded suggested a 12.9 ft3 enclosure. The description on the sub on their site says 11.8 ft3. There are guys on this site however modeling them in 5 ft3 enclosures as they are with other drivers as well. I'm sure the larger, suggested or optimum enclosures provide better performance or people wouldn't be sacrificing twice the space. That said, I would think that the closer one can get to those greater volumes, the better their sub will respond. A 21" depth over a 15" depth with the other 2 dimensions at 30" equates to nearly 3 more cubic feet of internal volume, almost 60% more internal volume for the driver. That takes you from being 1/2 of the recommended volume for the driver to about 3/4 of it.

Does that make a big difference? An audible difference? I don't know. Maybe someone should put up a plot of an UXL-18 in a 5 ft3 enclosure, 6 ft3 enclosure etc every ft3 all the way up to say 13 ft3 and we can see the difference on paper.

One cubic feet is not going to give a sub 1-2dB for output. I'm sure if LTD was to model Erich's 30x30x16 and compare it to a 30x30x18 you'd think you were basically looking at the same graph.

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post #833 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 05:42 PM
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I didn't say 1 cubic foot, I said 3 cubic feet. Not 2 more inches of box depth, 6 more inches of box depth.
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post #834 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 05:46 PM
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No, my cabinets are 32"wide, 22"deep and 40" high.

Doesn't a "cube" by definition have all 3 dimensions being the equal? smile.gif

I like those measurements above with the exception of the 40" height. My window sills in my living room start at 38" so the max I'd want my enclosures to be is about 34-35" tall. I figured with a 30" height I'd still have a little room to place things on top of the cabinets if I desire and they wouldn't be seen from outside.
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post #835 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 06:33 PM
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Doesn't a "cube" by definition have all 3 dimensions being the equal? smile.gif

I like those measurements above with the exception of the 40" height. My window sills in my living room start at 38" so the max I'd want my enclosures to be is about 34-35" tall. I figured with a 30" height I'd still have a little room to place things on top of the cabinets if I desire and they wouldn't be seen from outside.

Where did I ever say I had Marty cubes? wink.gif

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post #836 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Brutal,

I don't recall anyone thinking the Ultimax 18 might be used in a ported 5cuft. Maybe they did, but it might have been shot down pretty fast. 'Optimal' ported sizes on most 18" woofers would be too big for most people. Granted there are a good number on this forum that use very large ported boxes, but there are far more that use smaller ones.

For what it's worth, I did give a few different sized options I was considering. One ported size was about 7cuft net volume after ports and driver subtracted off.
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post #837 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 06:56 PM
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Where did I ever say I had Marty cubes? wink.gif

You didn't - the poster Peter above asked if you built your "cubes" 30"x30"x21" or something. smile.gif
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post #838 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 07:10 PM
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Brutal,

I don't recall anyone thinking the Ultimax 18 might be used in a ported 5cuft. Maybe they did, but it might have been shot down pretty fast. 'Optimal' ported sizes on most 18" woofers would be too big for most people. Granted there are a good number on this forum that use very large ported boxes, but there are far more that use smaller ones.

For what it's worth, I did give a few different sized options I was considering. One ported size was about 7cuft net volume after ports and driver subtracted off.

Understood. I completely get that. However, I think we can agree that the closer one can get to an "optimal" volume enclosure the better, right? Assuming it's within the size constraints of the potential buyer.

I don't think anyone on here would argue that one of the subs in discussion would perform BETTER in a 5 ft3 enclosure over a 7-8 ft3 enclosure when "optimal" is 10-12 ft3. I think the only 2 valid arguments are the opposite, or that there wouldn't be much of a difference which is of course arguable and subjective.

Your suggestion and consideration of a 7 ft3 net enclosure certainly has my attention, and I'd likely pull the trigger on a pair assuming it's dimensions were at or about 32" x 32" x 16" like you mentioned.
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post #839 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 07:16 PM
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Your suggestion and consideration of a 7 ft3 net enclosure certainly has my attention, and I'd likely pull the trigger on a pair assuming it's dimensions were at or about 32" x 32" x 16" like you mentioned.

I'd be interested in a left-right pair as well.

Mike

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post #840 of 1078 Old 04-08-2014, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Understood. I completely get that. However, I think we can agree that the closer one can get to an "optimal" volume enclosure the better, right? Assuming it's within the size constraints of the potential buyer.

Closer to optimal is always better, but then again, I think the Ultimax line was mostly designed to be used in sealed boxes anyway. That's why it needs such a large box if ported. So optimal on that woofer should be sealed. Other woofer models work pretty well in the smaller ported size.

In the end, I 100% agree it's always best to design what is best for the woofer. The problem again is demand. People that want 15cuft boxes always tell me to get them made because there's a big demand. But there really isn't, only a big demand from them. biggrin.gif So I personally have to juggle which makes the most sense to get good output, appeal to the most people, and still be ship friendly.
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