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post #151 of 187 Old 06-23-2014, 06:20 PM
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^^^^^^The 7500/7.5...
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post #152 of 187 Old 06-23-2014, 07:59 PM
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I can't speak for JD, but there has been mention of making an amp for the HT community if enough demand existed. I don't think the thought was an entire new product but more along the lines of a modified IPR2 for example. But, who knows. I think that's partly the reason for the quest to parallel these guys.

I just got done running through a bunch of testing and reporting. I would say again, for now, unless you're communicating with JD don't go putting your amps in parallel mode.

While it doesn't seem to be doing anything audible, positive OR negative, it does appear to be changing something internally as far as the amps is telling us.

Beast what's up?? Do you have a life or something????



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post #153 of 187 Old 06-23-2014, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
hahaha..
sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves.

This advice reads like this!!!

Doublewing. Your amp takes EVERYTHING you can handle? You've never seen clip lights?

Alright, put some 30dB reduction earplugs in. Play it louder than you or your guests could ever stand without earplugs and see if you can get that 7,500 watt amp to cry uncle. You'll find it's failure point somewhere between loosening your drywall, and knocking your projector off its mount.

HEY - - Don't quit until you find that place of dissatisfaction with your amplifier.



hahah...yeah...I chuckle at our insanity --- and then I always do the same types of things. How much can it take? Let's put earplugs in and find out! Oh man I think I might have heard a bad noise at 135dB...I need more subs and more amps! I can't even think about having any bad noise - even upwards of 130dB. Meanwhile the reality is I watch full movies at -16dB and -12dB if my wife is out of the house.
Finally! A man of reason.........sorta.

I don't believe for one minute you listen at -12. Heck, I'm mostly at -8 to -10. If I have a wild hair on good material maybe -5. I listened to a whole 2 hr movie once at reference with my Son and his buddy.......won't do that again!

I'm not too worried about amp shutting down. If I can play at reference with no issues and be flat close to 5 Hz, I'm good!
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post #154 of 187 Old 06-23-2014, 08:40 PM
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Finally! A man of reason.........sorta.

I don't believe for one minute you listen at -12. Heck, I'm mostly at -8 to -10. If I have a wild hair on good material maybe -5. I listened to a whole 2 hr movie once at reference with my Son and his buddy.......won't do that again!

I'm not too worried about amp shutting down. If I can play at reference with no issues and be flat close to 5 Hz, I'm good!
In the name of information - SHOW US THOSE FLASHING YELLOW LIGHTS!


I already told ya Id swap your amp if something bad happens.

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post #155 of 187 Old 06-23-2014, 08:51 PM
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Hahahahahah

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post #156 of 187 Old 06-23-2014, 11:17 PM
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pdx, what i was trying to highlight was that speakers are not resistive loads...but they get close to that if running in sealed enclosures down toward the single digits. the left side of my chart (a ported option) shows power goes to zero and peak around the port tuning point. the left side of your chart (typical of sealed) shows power going to 100% as you head toward single digits. i had a low pass filter in place which would be typical in either case.


"I'm one of the people that always shoots for a 4 ohm load in my HT. always have, always will. If that means I have to buy an extra amp or 2? then so be it. It's just so much easier on your gear."


n8, is there any difference between running at 4 ohms and at 2 ohms if the current is limited to the same amount?


doublewing, i'm not sure how much low end boosting that the other guys are doing with their sealed subs. each +3db or so of boost doubles power requirements on the low end. so if someone were running +9db of low end boost to help make the frequency response flat, that is 8 times that power requirement on the low end. so even if two guys are both at "reference level", the guy with +9db low end boost to get there needs 8 times as much amp power.


archaea, related to the question for n8, i'm increasingly thinking that so long as the amp doesn't detect it as a short and shutdown, running below the recommended impedance load is fine, so long as either the signal is kept low enough not to pull more current than the amp can provide or it is limited internally. for practical purposes what this means, i think, is let's say you have an inuke 6000dsp and four drivers that are 4 ohms and you want 1000 watts per driver. as you point out, no apparent way to make this work since the amp is not bridgeable. however, just paralleling up the drivers for 2 ohms per channel, then setting the limiter to 1000 watts (or setting the voltage to 0.707 x the stable voltage into 4 ohms) will pull the same current and produce the same power--1000 watts per driver--which is what the amp would be providing if you were to have four 8 ohm drivers, 2 wired in parallel on each channel. the problem would be if you tried to run the full voltage swing into 2 ohms, then too much current gets pulled through the amp as it would be trying to provide 2000 watts per driver.

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post #157 of 187 Old 06-23-2014, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
hahaha..
sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves.

This advice reads like this!!!

Doublewing. Your amp takes EVERYTHING you can handle? You've never seen clip lights?

Alright, put some 30dB reduction earplugs in. Play it louder than you or your guests could ever stand without earplugs and see if you can get that 7,500 watt amp to cry uncle. You'll find it's failure point somewhere between loosening your drywall, and knocking your projector off its mount.

HEY - - Don't quit until you find that place of dissatisfaction with your amplifier.



hahah...yeah...I chuckle at our insanity --- and then I always do the same types of things. How much can it take? Let's put earplugs in and find out! Oh man I think I might have heard a bad noise at 135dB...I need more subs and more amps! I can't even think about having any bad noise - even upwards of 130dB. Meanwhile the reality is I watch full movies at -16dB and -12dB if my wife is out of the house.
You know I think 90% of the people on here watch from -20 to -5 for average viewing. They never hit past 110dbs regularly. Yeah its nice to have a friend over and crank it to 120+ dB's and I have done it too. Good post Arch.
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post #158 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 01:02 AM
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LTD02

If you lower the resistance you need more current and less voltage to dissipate the same power. If you halve the resistance you need sqrt2 more current to dissipate the same power and 1/sqrt2 less voltage. If you keep the current the same the delivered power will therefore be less if you lower the resistance.
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post #159 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 07:22 AM
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Yep, I am alive. Had a buddy over last night and I don't typically like to rewire and blast test scenes when I am trying to hang out and have a good time...Haha. With that said, we did run through some of the bass demo disc and I had the amp popping like popcorn as hot as we were running the volume. Some scenes we were at +2 ref, still with a gratuitous bass boost, pretty intense, but I clearly see now that I need to rewire to something else as 2 ohm stereo ain't cutting it. So the quest still continues to finally be driver limited (Not AMP)... It seems I really don't have a personal "ear" limit in the LFE area, so I need not worry about that....

Matt, what are your reasons so far for not going parallel mode?

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post #160 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
archaea, related to the question for n8, i'm increasingly thinking that so long as the amp doesn't detect it as a short and shutdown, running below the recommended impedance load is fine, so long as either the signal is kept low enough not to pull more current than the amp can provide or it is limited internally. for practical purposes what this means, i think, is let's say you have an inuke 6000dsp and four drivers that are 4 ohms and you want 1000 watts per driver. as you point out, no apparent way to make this work since the amp is not bridgeable. however, just paralleling up the drivers for 2 ohms per channel, then setting the limiter to 1000 watts (or setting the voltage to 0.707 x the stable voltage into 4 ohms) will pull the same current and produce the same power--1000 watts per driver--which is what the amp would be providing if you were to have four 8 ohm drivers, 2 wired in parallel on each channel. the problem would be if you tried to run the full voltage swing into 2 ohms, then too much current gets pulled through the amp as it would be trying to provide 2000 watts per driver.
LTD02,

These are not facetious questions - I really don't have a clue to the answer - but I have a couple concerns and would like your thoughts about my concerns in regards to running the iNuke 6000's at under their rated 4ohm minimum.

1) dampening factor is always seemingly rated at 8ohm in amp specs (that I've seen)? if you lower impedenance does it change dampening to the negative?
2) distortion numbers seem to be higher on pro amps when the impedance drops to 2 ohm or four ohm bridged than the spec given distortion numbers at 4 ohm stereo or 8 ohm bridged. Do you think that matters?

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post #161 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 08:57 AM
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doublewing, i'm not sure how much low end boosting that the other guys are doing with their sealed subs. each +3db or so of boost doubles power requirements on the low end. so if someone were running +9db of low end boost to help make the frequency response flat, that is 8 times that power requirement on the low end. so even if two guys are both at "reference level", the guy with +9db low end boost to get there needs 8 times as much amp power.

I'm running a + 6 db low shelf from 30 Hz down and cut something like -16 db's around 60-70 Hz. On MiniDSP Open, input is at 0 and output at -4......no HP filter.

I've measured numerous times with REW and calibrated mic......I'm flat to 8 Hz at reference and -2 db's at 5 Hz. Before Mini implementation, 128 db's in room was easy but below 20 Hz tumbling began.......so yeah, I have a lot of low end boost yet not once popped a breaker, have amp shutdown , or flicker clip lights. Therefore, to conclude.......there's some db's left in tank......how much I do not know.
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post #162 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 09:20 AM
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^^ DW - you're reducing 4db of signal at the outputs of the Minidsp. Same thing, for this conversation, as reducing four db at the sub trim or MV.

I can reduce 3 db on my sub trim and problem solved, or reduce my shelf filter, or turn down my MV or... Etc etc.

Beast - we are running into an issue where after a couple rounds of content, as quick as two 0-80 rew sweeps, the amps signal lights stay on regardless of whether or not signal is being applied or even if inputs are connected to the amp at all. If the amp is in parallel mode the signal lights stay on. This was discovered on an amp that was fresh off the test bench at peavey. Short, to the point, documented tests revealed the above.

I have one more thing to try but don't think it's going to solve the problem. Right now JD is not in a spot to further play with this, but hopefully will be in the near future.

One channel driven in 2 ohm mode should provide over 4kw bursts with no shut downs. It's that or go 4cp ohm cv5k , clone, or ??

Im stuck with 2 ohm drivers so I will be driving 4 drivers with 4 amps. I saw another clone bit the dust. Too bad.....

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post #163 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 09:33 AM
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"These are not facetious questions - I really don't have a clue to the answer - but I have a couple concerns and would like your thoughts about my concerns in regards to running the iNuke 6000's at under their rated 4ohm minimum.

1) dampening factor is always seemingly rated at 8ohm in amp specs (that I've seen)? if you lower impedenance does it change dampening to the negative?
2) distortion numbers seem to be higher on pro amps when the impedance drops to 2 ohm or four ohm bridged than the spec given distortion numbers at 4 ohm stereo or 8 ohm bridged. Do you think that matters?"


you are right on both points. i'm not sure if either would push things far enough to notice any difference though. i've seen lots of claims about damping factor, but perhaps surprisingly, not a single blind comparison/test. as for distortion, so long as the amp isn't clipping, i can't see that being detectable in the bass frequencies.

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post #164 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 09:39 AM
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So the signal lights just stay lit, but does it still output content correctly and without issue?

I guess 2 ohm channel A 4kw bursts vs. both channels driven and only getting (I think you said) around 2500 watts per side is understandable with standard 120v supply. I do wonder if bumping to 240v and the subsequent rise in available current draw from the wall if this situation gets improved?

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post #165 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 10:00 AM
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"If you lower the resistance you need more current and less voltage to dissipate the same power. If you halve the resistance you need sqrt2 more current to dissipate the same power and 1/sqrt2 less voltage. If you keep the current the same the delivered power will therefore be less if you lower the resistance."


thanks for the correction. not sure what i was thinking.

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post #166 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 10:01 AM
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So the signal lights just stay lit, but does it still output content correctly and without issue?

I guess 2 ohm channel A 4kw bursts vs. both channels driven and only getting (I think you said) around 2500 watts per side is understandable with standard 120v supply. I do wonder if bumping to 240v and the subsequent rise in available current draw from the wall if this situation gets improved?
Correct - however there might be a progressive degradation of internal components the longer, or maybe harder, you run in parallel.

My second amp that has had significantly more time in parallel mode also jumps several degrees at the speakon connector when in parallel mode. Doesn't matter if inputs are connected or not. If channels are paralleled the wires heat up and signal lights are on.

The wires aren't (yet?) heating up at all on the other amp that has had very little time in parallel.

Not sure on 240. I know you amps drop with a 240 supply but beyond that I don't know much. Are you thinking of converting the amp to 240 and running stereo or??

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post #167 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 10:09 AM
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I contemplated it with JD but we wanted to cover some other bases first. I might bring it back up again now that we have made it much further in figuring out what is going on.

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post #168 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 10:13 AM
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I thats an easy option for me if it works for you. Look forward to the outcome.

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PDX (or someone else in the know)

Can you point me to a diagram showing this parallel mode? Sounds weird that the speakons heat up.
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post #170 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 10:28 AM
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PDX (or someone else in the know)

Can you point me to a diagram showing this parallel mode? Sounds weird that the speakons heat up.


There seems to be some sort of internal signal going on. We know it doesn't happen until input signal is played in parallel mode.

What I don't know is if my second amp is getting hot wires because it has more time in parallel mode, or because that's just the way the amp is working.
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post #171 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 10:46 AM
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OK. Let me hear if i get this right. I have never seen this before :-)

Channel a negative is connected to channel b negative and the speaker via the yellow "clip"

Channel a positive is connected to channel b positive and the speaker via the other yellow "clip"

This is done to halve the current load on the amplifier channels as opposed to having the full current load on one channel.?
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post #172 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 11:02 AM
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OK. Let me hear if i get this right. I have never seen this before :-)

Channel a negative is connected to channel b negative and the speaker via the yellow "clip"

Channel a positive is connected to channel b positive and the speaker via the other yellow "clip"

This is done to halve the current load on the amplifier channels as opposed to having the full current load on one channel.?
All correct except in regards to current, and you might be right there too. I get confused. I do know that the amps internal resistance is halved so current flow has the potential to double.

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That sound like two sides of the same coin. It is also true that you can deliver double current, as long as the power supply, that is usually common for both channels, is able to keep up. However this all presumes that both channels is precisely in phase and and has exactly the same gain and thus the same output voltage. If not a current will flow in the leads connecting a and b and possibly heat the speakon or the wire.

Try connecting a current meter in between the white connector on one of the "jumper leads" and turn on the amp to see if a current is flowing.
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post #174 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 11:29 AM
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That sound like two sides of the same coin. It is also true that you can deliver double current, as long as the power supply, that is usually common for both channels, is able to keep up. However this all presumes that both channels is precisely in phase and and has exactly the same gain and thus the same output voltage. If not a current will flow in the leads connecting a and b and possibly heat the speakon or the wire.

Try connecting a current meter in between the white connector on one of the "jumper leads" and turn on the amp to see if a current is flowing.

Correct - and the channels have been gain matched precisely as you suggest.

Will try the current reading, there is no voltage - tried that.

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post #175 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 11:29 AM
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You are essentially taking both outputs from the same speakon and summing them to the single wire. The speakon I would imagine is heating up as you are looking at a ohm nominal load theoretically at this point across both channels. The halved resistance will build up heat on the internal components as well as the wire much faster.

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post #176 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 11:35 AM
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You are essentially taking both outputs from the same speakon and summing them to the single wire. The speakon I would imagine is heating up as you are looking at a ohm nominal load theoretically at this point across both channels. The halved resistance will build up heat on the internal components as well as the wire much faster.
The load the amp sees from the speaker remains 2 ohm nominal. The internal amplifier resistance is now 1 ohm vs. 2.

I could run a speakon for ch. a and b., but it's not the problem. The wires are only heating up on one amp, and they are heating up to the exact same temps every time with no content being played. I can even disconnect the inputs and get the same signal lights and temp issues.

The second amp fresh from Peavey displayed no issues until content was ran through it one time. Then signal lights stayed on. Power cycled the amp, they went off. Ran content, they stayed on again, but this time a power cycle did not turn them off.

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Last edited by pdxrealtor; 06-24-2014 at 11:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by splotten View Post

Try connecting a current meter in between the white connector on one of the "jumper leads" and turn on the amp to see if a current is flowing.
No current, unless you count 0.004.

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post #178 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post
No current, unless you count 0.004.
Ok then. Im sure thats not it :-)

May I ask. Is this an "official" way of connecting that amp? I have never seen this connection method described in any manual.

Last edited by splotten; 06-24-2014 at 11:47 AM.
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post #179 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by splotten View Post
That sound like two sides of the same coin. It is also true that you can deliver double current, as long as the power supply, that is usually common for both channels, is able to keep up. However this all presumes that both channels is precisely in phase and and has exactly the same gain and thus the same output voltage. If not a current will flow in the leads connecting a and b and possibly heat the speakon or the wire.

Try connecting a current meter in between the white connector on one of the "jumper leads" and turn on the amp to see if a current is flowing.
This right here is the entire issue and what led to playing with parallel mode. The power supply is common for both channels, and it can not hang with both channels putting out the power we are asking for both channels driven

Run one channel driven and you're good to go because the supply can now hang. Great so let's just run one channel. But if we can lower the internal resistance by paralleling the channels we can get 1/3 more amp without touching the speaker ohm load of the speaker - per JD.

At this point it's a dead idea. I did the last thing I was asked to do and for now we are done. Hopefully we'll re-visit sooner than later.

Beast = I'd still like to hear what you come up with both with your current setup and tests and any further info from JD. Email me if you prefer.

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post #180 of 187 Old 06-24-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post
Ok then. Im sure thats not it :-)

May I ask. Is this an "official" way of connecting that amp? I have never seen this connection method described in any manual.
Not official. It looked to be solid until we got into a bit further. I hope it becomes official soon.

For now there are other priorities. It's been fun!

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