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post #271 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yup. Made most drivers I model look pretty ugly save for: Aurasound, Dayton RSShf, and anything AE.

What do you think of the sim'd results?

Well your Unibox sim seems to be really close to the WT2 sim and the measurement so I'd say that it is factual. Unfortunately I'm not really digging it to be honest. Sensitivity is really low everywhere other than the peak, the response is all kinds of peaky being 8dB down by 100Hz already and it looks like in order to be used in a small enclosure it is going to take a serious powerplant to make use of the displacement capabilities for signal peaks. I hope the Xcon or SSD is different.
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post #272 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:14 AM
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For those that might be interested in the side conversation Josh and I are currently having, I made an example model of how inductance (Le) can change the response of a particular sub driver in a sealed box. The numbers (save for Le) are constant. Nothing is changed except that one model has no inductance, one has a simple model (how I've almost always done my sims) and the last includes a complex model that is supposed to be more realistic.

Levels were kept the same, hopefully not too confusing to look at but this is how much the response changes just from this one lil spec.

EDIT: Sorry, just to clear it up. This is Ricci's tested Fi Q18d2 from the previous page using the T/S numbers extracted from his woofer tester device. This was a good example to use as there was some real world Le numbers to use for this.



Amazing.

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post #273 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Well your Unibox sim seems to be really close to the WT2 sim and the measurement so I'd say that it is factual. Unfortunately I'm not really digging it to be honest. Sensitivity is really low everywhere other than the peak, the response is all kinds of peaky being 8dB down by 100Hz already and it looks like in order to be used in a small enclosure it is going to take a serious powerplant to make use of the displacement capabilities for signal peaks. I hope the Xcon or SSD is different.

Neither am I. Quite a bit of these lower Q subs have the same problem and without knowing the actual Le (most drivers, especially Fi) it's hard to tell for sure. Though I have noticed quite a drop on the low bass side of the peak. I don't believe the Xcon or SSD are very different but I don't have 'real' Le figures from either one of those to say for sure.

If anyone is curious. I can throw out some other models to compare relative Le from one driver to another.

Ready to take some serious flames here but I have always believed and still say inductance IS important even for a sub driver. Just my opinion.

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post #274 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:18 AM
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Note that sensitivity drops almost everywhere in the blue curve above including >2dB at 30Hz and drastically at 90Hz and beyond.
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post #275 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:33 AM
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The TCSounds LMS-U version:



Even the king of all sub drivers is affected (well, obviously) from Le but notice the difference compared to the Fi Q18d2.

That's what a $1,000 driver ought to model like, me thinks. At least you get what you paid for.


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post #276 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yup. Made most drivers I model look pretty ugly save for: Aurasound, Dayton RSShf, and anything AE.

What do you think of the sim'd results?

I was hoping of course it would have less peak to it but given the close mic measurements from Bosso's SSD's I guess it should be expected. Those models look very similar to what he mic'd on the SSD 15's.

When I play around with modeling these they look good for IB installs. Anyone see a problem with using them for IB?
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post #277 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:38 AM
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Thing is with the LMS Scott... It actually measures as flat as a pancake up past 300Hz. It doesn't have a hump so something is off there. Yes that, the low distortion and the massive displacement are where all of those dollars are going.
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post #278 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Thing is with the LMS Scott... It actually measures as flat as a pancake up past 300Hz. It doesn't have a hump so something is off there. Yes that, the low distortion and the massive displacement are where all of those dollars are going.

Correct. I've compared many of these to older Ilkka tests and yours and I see things like that that don't show up in Unibox.

However, your sim of and my sim of the Q18 you got do jive.





Do you think you'll be able to do a hasty FR measurement of the Q18 anytime soon?

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post #279 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:50 AM
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EDIT: LTD's post disappeared! HHhheeeeyyyyy!

Group buy? Easy. SSD15/18.

It's the best overall value but wrt the discussion of accurate Le spec... none of them have listings at all. : / No FiCar product has good Le ratings that I've seen so I'm not sure DS-21 would like any of them. I trust Bosso's real life use of these drivers though and in the real world, I think most people would be happy with the SSD's if they are used correctly. Considering that there are no more good 'HT' type sub drivers on the market (uuurrrrgggghhhh!!!) what other choice is there? *shrugs*

The answer becomes much more complex when we must talk about pure implementation. The Q's might be the better choice if one needs displacement from a shoebox sized enclosure. I could say all kinds of things here.

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post #280 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

REheeheeheeheeheEEEAAAHHHLLLY....

I haven't touched Unibox in years. Time to dust it off. Actually that is awesome becuse I didn't think it had this capability. Now the only problem is manuf's don't give this info.

If you look at the measured model compared to one without the frequency dependent LE factored in it is a HUGE difference. Sensitivity goes way down.

This is exactly what I found in the SSD-15, save for 2 things: a) I put a pair of the SSDs in a very small Vb, I believe 3 cubes net and b) I really see zero difference with the "Heat Ring".

Here's your close mic against my SSD-15 close mic. I designed the SEQSS-1 with a notch filter to take the bump out and here's the result with +6dB, +8dB and +10dB L/T settings:



Heat ring seems to have no effect.

WARNING: Subjectives incoming...

I have to say though that I really like the sound of these subs and so does everyone I auditioned them for (to get a consensus to make sure I'm not yet totally deaf). Music, upright bass, fretless bass, Power trio bass, dub step Sears bass, all the way to Hulk at ref +6dB, they sound good.

Otherwise I would have chucked the first 4 I tried and moved on and I certainly wouldn't have ever recommended them to anyone. For a buck ninety nine they sound great and I have had no problems when dumping serious power into 4 of them.

THIS^^^ is subjective. Doesn't matter how many drivers I've had in how many configurations, it's purely subjective reporting, FWIW.

I currently have 8 of them under a single FP9K clone. No drips, no runs, no errors.

I most definitely wouldn't plan on running them naked.

EDIT: BTW, the vertical scale on that graph is 8dB per division.

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post #281 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 11:56 AM
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Good post, B. I hope everyone pays close attention to it.

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post #282 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 12:07 PM
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"I have to say though that I really like the sound of these subs and so does everyone I auditioned them for (to get a consensus to make sure I'm not yet totally deaf)."

that is interesting. what crossover point do you run?

also, you eq'd them pretty much flat right?

what is the SEQSS-1?

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post #283 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 12:09 PM
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LTD,

I don't know. In the end, you just have to fork over some dough and give it a spin.

I would have said the SSD but they've raised the price and lost the pole vent to save magnet costs (my guess).

I have zero audible self-noise from mine, and I bet dollars the missing pole vent changes that, but I just don't know. Someone will have to be the guinea pig and let us know.

I reckoned the Q would add a few dBSPL from the increase in throw and so I would like to try those, which makes my opinion biased.

90 Hz and 100 Hz. Depends on the number of modules in play and where they sit on the room. Once the LP FR is flat, there's no audible difference between the 2.

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post #284 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 12:23 PM
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roger bosso.

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post #285 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 01:25 PM
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I posted some subjectives on the Q motor noise on the previous page. It does pump some air at full on war excursions but it's not notably worse than some other drivers. I couldn't hear any of that in box. I think it is a thumbs up as a non issue for typical use in that regard. I do have some sort of tapping sound with this driver though.

Dave,
I took your post to mean that you tried drivers both with and without the heat ring? I'm with you there... It doesn't really seem like it did much if anything does it? That being the case the SSD might actually be a little flatter due to less steel in the motor, lighter, cheaper and I'm not sure how much real world excursion it will give up since the suspension is likely the same. Did you use copper coils on the drivers?

Basically my main issue is just that the peak limits the potential for crossing over higher with the drivers. I have been experimenting with crossing the XXX's at 200Hz lately and it is actually an improvement from my normal 125Hz. Subjectively it's stunningly good for a super heavyweight, dreadfully innefficient driver. I'm the outlier scenario though, I know that everybody else seems to be at 100Hz or even lower.

We used to be spoiled with all of the dedicated HT sub drivers available. When you think about that bad shipment Kevin got that put the nail in the Exodus line it's a real bummer.

TGse3 did you happen to remember what options your SSD's have?
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post #286 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Fact is, Tumult, Mael-X, SDX, Sound Splinter, Blueprint and every HT driver vendor are gone. Kyle Richardson, Scott Atwell, Dan Wiggins, Kevin Haskins, Brian Bunge, John Janowitz, et, al... all gone. The market is simply too small to make a profit and the loud calls for 18" and then 21" drivers shrank the market further still. Brian Ding is the last man standing and I personally believe that's because he stayed conservative with a 15" driver size limit.

Um, Scott Atwell is Fi, right? And one notable "HT driver vendor" was not mentioned by you: TC Sounds. (Though I suspect we have a lot of the same criticisms, and general lack of trust, in TC.)

Also, the actual evidence does not support your conclusion.

Adire (DW) is gone more likely than not because their attempt to take driver production into Chile failed, while sucking up their available capital.

Exodus (KH) basically got screwed by the economy, with a manufacturing defect from his buildhouse (and no effective legal recourse) putting the nail in the coffin. Too bad, because The Maelstrom-X was a great driver.

As for Janowitz...well, there are certainly managerial issues at AE, that I hope get fixed because he has an interesting product. However, it's also fair to note that he was also screwed pretty badly by TC. Twice, I believe.

Brian Bunge, to my knowledge, never commissioned his own driver, though I could be wrong. I was studying out of the country and thus not paying too much attention to big subs during Blueprint, so don't know the story there.

Also, it's worth noting that Nathan Funk has recently commissioned his own 18" driver.
On paper, it looks like a real winner: low Le, linear Le(x), bottomless design, etc. I expect at current neo prices it's a frightfully expensive piece, though. Still, if I didn't already have a Mael-X and Aura NS18-992-4A I'd probably buy one.


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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The next best option is the so-called 'car driver'.

I'm really surprised you haven't taken a look at the best of the widely-available car drivers, yet, the W15GTi.
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yup. Made most drivers I model look pretty ugly save for: Aurasound, Dayton RSShf, and anything AE.

What do you think of the sim'd results?

Have you tried the old XLS12? It's another one that does not have the inductive hump. The measured Le is much lower than Peerless claims, though I wonder if their number is more along the lines of what you and Ricci are discussion. Perhaps no longer a volume displacement leader, but a very good driver.


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No FiCar product has good Le ratings that I've seen so I'm not sure DS-21 would like any of them.

Nope.

Another reason I don't like Fi drivers is that they don't seem to pay attention to detail. For example, when I had my old Ava18 reconed, they didn't even bother to line up the recesses in the surround with the screw holes on the basket. So I had to poke holes into the surround to use the driver. Perhaps their standards are higher now, but shoddy workmanship like that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'll stick with my Auras, XLS's, and W15GTis. Extremely well-made drivers with outstanding performance.

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post #287 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

It looks very peaky. Not what I was hoping for really. This measurement is far from ideal and it may accentuate the peak due to being an extreme close mic that is in room. The actual response might flatten out some when properly tested outdoors but that hump will still be there. However the close matching of the simulation response has me doubtful that it will improve much.

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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yup. Made most drivers I model look pretty ugly save for: Aurasound, Dayton RSShf, and anything AE.

What do you think of the sim'd results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Well your Unibox sim seems to be really close to the WT2 sim and the measurement so I'd say that it is factual. Unfortunately I'm not really digging it to be honest. Sensitivity is really low everywhere other than the peak, the response is all kinds of peaky being 8dB down by 100Hz already and it looks like in order to be used in a small enclosure it is going to take a serious powerplant to make use of the displacement capabilities for signal peaks. I hope the Xcon or SSD is different.

Thanks Ricci,

I've gotten so many "WTF is he talking about?" or "he's being really picky and it doesn't really matter..." reactions whenever I would post about this that I stopped bothering, other than reminding guys to actually measure before they get overly excited about what their L/T circuit is supposed to do for their modeled sub.

This issue has been posted about and well known since the HE-15 drivers TC made for Janowitz/Stryke waaaay back in the day (I still have a couple in a closet). The Q driver has some relation to those with a really tall gap and long coil. I later found the exact same concern with the Avalanche drivers from Ascendant when I considered using them when developing the SubMersive. The Tumult without the shorting rings showed related effects in Ilkka's measurements, and I fully expect bosso's early version measured and sounded better.

It isn't much surprise that bosso had less severe issues with the SSD's. The gap is a little shorter, and there is 14-16mm less total overhang. That could make for a 20-25+mm shorter coil. Consider the SSD's copper coil still leaves a lower Mms than the Al coil on the Q, and it is perfectly reasonable to expect less Le. This also gets to my curiosity about the UXL-18 (was Pi-18)... A 573g Mms and BL^2/Re of ~210 while still having 34mm Xmax means the 2 shorting rings should have a lot of wire to work on. Until tested, there's no way to know if they simply linearize Le with excursion or if they noticeably lower it.

For a long while now I've stopped bothering to get too caught up in T/S parameters other than Mms, BL, Re, Cms & Sd. An impedance curve can give you an indication in how much there is to worry about, but in the end you have to test the driver to have any real confidence in what you will end up with. I've had drivers I deemed not useful for one of a few reasons, despite having >50mm of travel by Klippel measurements.

You have to measure... If you don't EQ that peak out before you go to smooth your in-room response, it's fingerprint will stick out like a sore thumb, even if your curve at the listening position looks pretty smooth.

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post #288 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 01:56 PM
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Mark your last point is my main one after reading through this. Bottom line is these subs arent going to play well naked due to the inductance hump, but assuming you are able to EQ this out via your device of choice, the problem is immediately not an issue. IF on the other hand you want plug and play, then stay out of the DIY projects or live with half-off results and be happy right?

I can understand some folks maybe wanting to not have to deal with the hump to begin with, but odds are, your room is going to play into the response way more than that Le ever will (at least in most people's case)

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post #289 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:09 PM
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"I have been experimenting with crossing the XXX's at 200Hz lately and it is actually an improvement from my normal 125Hz. Subjectively it's stunningly good for a super heavyweight, dreadfully innefficient driver. I'm the outlier scenario though, I know that everybody else seems to be at 100Hz or even lower."

i thought you were at 60hz with them because in your estimation they sounded better.

you and bosso appear to be on the same page.

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post #290 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Mark your last point is my main one after reading through this. Bottom line is these subs arent going to play well naked due to the inductance hump, but assuming you are able to EQ this out via your device of choice, the problem is immediately not an issue. IF on the other hand you want plug and play, then stay out of the DIY projects or live with half-off results and be happy right?

I can understand some folks maybe wanting to not have to deal with the hump to begin with, but odds are, your room is going to play into the response way more than that Le ever will (at least in most people's case)

You are partially correct, missing an important detail... Anything with that much inductance is likely to have significant variation in the Le as it moves, and that creates fairly audible, higher order distortion and modulation of the response. This is where the shorting ring in the motor comes into play, as it can greatly help with the typical increase of Le as the coil moves inward. Putting a ring on top of the pole can sometimes actually make this modulation worse, as it will reduce the inductance some, but at the same time make the Le dive much faster on the excursion and increase fast on incursion. This is where some distortion measurements and simple observations are important, where points with higher THD or odd sound should be probed more closely with measurement. I've seen plenty of good air pumps with 3x the distortion above 40Hz than a more modest and typical design of suitable parameters.

In the end it comes back to what changes with level and excursion. EQ will be the same for all levels, so can only combat the constants. That is not to say that a shorting ring is required in every woofer to be useful. Rather it comes back to watching for the extreme designs to make sure they haven't gone so far chasing one performance detail that they've let another go down the toilet. Remembering that the SubMersive is almost a 6 year old design, and there were fewer/different options available at that time, this was a real consideration when I opted to use a pair of moderate excursion woofers rather than some less efficient, Xmax kings.

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post #291 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:22 PM
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mark, i (and many others) enjoy reading your posts around here...

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post #292 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Bosso,

I did post some refuting information a couple of posts back. I'm not sure what happened to the link, but as I explained the original data which you are using for your point for the dual 21 opposed is not compensated at all and as such is misrepresentative. Ever since I tested the Empire I knew it would be way off. I commented on it being way, way off from the simulations back when it was originally posted and there is a disclaimer on the results as not being up to the current standards I'm trying to hold myself to. I should have pulled it down truthfully. I have re-done measurements with the current LMS and the dual 21 but have not had time to update the site yet. I have lowered the 21's by 3dB in order to show what it should be with 1 driver in <3 cu ft. Again this still isn't a true apples/ apples comparison, I need to test a single 21 forward firing in the test box I have made up, so there could be another+/-1dB either way on this but it should be close.

Attachment 234416

Here is a very simple simulation of the 1w spl of the LMS, 21SW152 and an SSD18 D2 all in a 4cu ft sealed enclosure. Below 30Hz the LMS is the most sensitive by almost 2dB over the others. The SSD and 21 are almost identical.

Attachment 234417

I know you said back to the fi drivers but...

... the 21SW152 is only $707 at beach audio with free shipping, which is reputable

http://www.beachaudio.com/B-And-C/21...-p-473838.html

Seems like it makes it one heck of a deal
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post #293 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
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what is the SEQSS-1?

Dave's custom analog bass unit, similar to the Marchand Bassis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I posted some subjectives on the Q motor noise on the previous page. It does pump some air at full on war excursions but it's not notably worse than some other drivers. I couldn't hear any of that in box. I think it is a thumbs up as a non issue for typical use in that regard. I do have some sort of tapping sound with this driver though.

Dave,
I took your post to mean that you tried drivers both with and without the heat ring? I'm with you there... It doesn't really seem like it did much if anything does it? That being the case the SSD might actually be a little flatter due to less steel in the motor, lighter, cheaper and I'm not sure how much real world excursion it will give up since the suspension is likely the same. Did you use copper coils on the drivers?

Basically my main issue is just that the peak limits the potential for crossing over higher with the drivers. I have been experimenting with crossing the XXX's at 200Hz lately and it is actually an improvement from my normal 125Hz. Subjectively it's stunningly good for a super heavyweight, dreadfully innefficient driver. I'm the outlier scenario though, I know that everybody else seems to be at 100Hz or even lower.

We used to be spoiled with all of the dedicated HT sub drivers available. When you think about that bad shipment Kevin got that put the nail in the Exodus line it's a real bummer.

TGse3 did you happen to remember what options your SSD's have?

Yeah, I really thought it was sad to see Mark close up Exodus. I wanted to cry. His whole line up with top notch, imo. Had I not been so broke with funds prioritized towards my mega build, I would have certainly been ordering some of his gear. I wanted the Mal-X and Tempest-X, mos def. Wish someone would (could?) pick up the torch and resurrect Exodus.

Where the hell is Dan Wiggins??!?!? He single handedly got me into the DIY world nearly a decade ago.

Josh, I would definitely like it if you could investigate the tapping sound some more if that's cool. Also, I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the XXX. Hearing about that driver never gets old and in the past couple years with you so busy, I miss reading about your own endevors in audio and your personal system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Um, Scott Atwell is Fi, right? And one notable "HT driver vendor" was not mentioned by you: TC Sounds. (Though I suspect we have a lot of the same criticisms, and general lack of trust, in TC.)

Also, the actual evidence does not support your conclusion.

Adire (DW) is gone more likely than not because their attempt to take driver production into Chile failed, while sucking up their available capital.

Exodus (KH) basically got screwed by the economy, with a manufacturing defect from his buildhouse (and no effective legal recourse) putting the nail in the coffin. Too bad, because The Maelstrom-X was a great driver.

As for Janowitz...well, there are certainly managerial issues at AE, that I hope get fixed because he has an interesting product. However, it's also fair to note that he was also screwed pretty badly by TC. Twice, I believe.

Brian Bunge, to my knowledge, never commissioned his own driver, though I could be wrong. I was studying out of the country and thus not paying too much attention to big subs during Blueprint, so don't know the story there.

Also, it's worth noting that Nathan Funk has recently commissioned his own 18" driver.
On paper, it looks like a real winner: low Le, linear Le(x), bottomless design, etc. I expect at current neo prices it's a frightfully expensive piece, though. Still, if I didn't already have a Mael-X and Aura NS18-992-4A I'd probably buy one.




I'm really surprised you haven't taken a look at the best of the widely-available car drivers, yet, the W15GTi.


Have you tried the old XLS12? It's another one that does not have the inductive hump. The measured Le is much lower than Peerless claims, though I wonder if their number is more along the lines of what you and Ricci are discussion. Perhaps no longer a volume displacement leader, but a very good driver.




Nope.

Another reason I don't like Fi drivers is that they don't seem to pay attention to detail. For example, when I had my old Ava18 reconed, they didn't even bother to line up the recesses in the surround with the screw holes on the basket. So I had to poke holes into the surround to use the driver. Perhaps their standards are higher now, but shoddy workmanship like that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'll stick with my Auras, XLS's, and W15GTis. Extremely well-made drivers with outstanding performance.

Oooo!! So much here.

I thought you might agree wrt Fi drivers.

Good call on the w15gti! Not to be forgotten. A splendid driver but unfortunately not very affordable. Last time I looked they were ~$400 each. Ouch. Hits all the right notes though, no pun intended.

Haven't looked into the Peerless so much but I'm quite familiar of it over the years and have seen you bring it up occasionally. Not to sound crude but... it hasn't caught much interest from me, personally, cuz.... it's a 12" driver. Uhhh... I mean.... I won't knock it but.... it's sooo small. Check me off as a big driver lover. I'm sorry but I like my drivers with some nice swept volume. I'm not everyone though and we all have our personal tastes and stuff. To each their own.

Very curious about Nathan's new driver. No doubt it will be a painful hit on the wallet, that one. I'll keep my eyes on that one still.

HEY! I checked Madisound yesterday and saw that the Aurasound NS18 is coming back next month. Cool beans!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

mark, i (and many others) enjoy reading your posts around here...

Damn right. Always good stuff from Seaton.

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post #294 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:42 PM
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post #295 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i thought you were at 60hz with them because in your estimation they sounded better.

you and bosso appear to be on the same page.

Shoot no...The higher I run them the smoother my at the seat and average response becomes. The mains are way rougher and not to mention less capable, at least on only 200-300w each. Yes crossing them at 200Hz puts some voices through them and a lot of other things but since my 3 main listening positions are almost dead center of the room and the subs are in the 4 corners I can't localize any of it. Everything seems to come from the mains wherever the upper register ques are. If I turn off half of the bass system yeah the image gets yanked to whatever area the 2 subs still running are in and everything collapses. That's the cheat. The illusion wouldn't work without the omni configuration I am currently using. Intuition says that the super heavyweight, space heater bass pumps should sound like warmed over dog's ass run that high, but surprisingly it's like butter dripping off of a hot biscuit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

In the end it comes back to what changes with level and excursion. EQ will be the same for all levels, so can only combat the constants.

One thing that I have noted is that every system reverts back to it's native response when it is really pushed. So if you are running the system hard that peak will eventually show up. Yet another reason to have way more firepower on hand than needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

This also gets to my curiosity about the UXL-18 (was Pi-18)... A 573g Mms and BL^2/Re of ~210 while still having 34mm Xmax means the 2 shorting rings should have a lot of wire to work on. Until tested, there's no way to know if they simply linearize Le with excursion or if they noticeably lower it.
.


Ultra magic ninja post!

Hey lookey there....

Attachment 234465

* This data was exported from the Dayton Audio WT3 Woofer Tester
*
* Manufacturer: Mach5
* Model: UXL-18 (Pi-18)
* Piston Diameter = 387.4 mm
* f(s)= 20.86 Hz
* R(e)= 3.29 Ohms
* Z(max)= 65.71 Ohms
* Q(ms)= 6.120
* Q(es)= 0.323
* Q(ts)= 0.307
* V(as)= 267.100 liters (9.432 cubic feet)
* L(e)= 4.82 mH
* n(0)= 0.72 %
* SPL= 90.65 1W/1m
* M(ms)= 424.80 grams
* C(ms)= 0.14 mm/N
* BL= 23.83

A guy at HTS was nice enough to post that for me.
LL
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post #296 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Hey scott can you do a complex inductance model of the 1243D alpine?

http://support.alpine-usa.com/produc..._S06212011.pdf

Sure. Thanks for the link, btw. Needed to add the 1243d to my database anyway.

Model in 2cuft sealed cab. Not bad.


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post #297 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Intuition says that the super heavyweight, space heater bass pumps should sound like warmed over dog's ass run that high, but surprisingly it's like butter dripping off of a hot biscuit.

Lol!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post




One thing that I have noted is that every system reverts back to it's native response when it is really pushed. So if you are running the system hard that peak will eventually show up. Yet another reason to have way more firepower on hand than needed.



Exactly! Thus my big push for multiple subs being damn near necessary for the true bassheads or those that seek accuracy. When it comes to bass, it's always good to have extra on hand. Again (another uber system hint drop ) this is part of my extreme angle going ahead with the uber mains I'm building. So often one says, "this should be enough," yet it so rarely is.

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post #298 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sure. Thanks for the link, btw. Needed to add the 1243d to my database anyway.

Model in 2cuft sealed cab. Not bad.


Nice, a car audio sub thats not very peaky

Its $120 at cartoys.com still, free shipping. SSD has some stiff competition
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post #299 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 03:20 PM
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Yeah...it's too bad it's not available as a 15" or 18" then we'd be getting somewhere!

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post #300 of 535 Old 01-17-2012, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Yet another reason to have way more firepower on hand than needed.

Yep, yet another reason

--------

Bosso;
WRT OmniMic graphs;

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Technically, I was claiming that. The insanely stretched graph is an issue for me. Also, the 6 data point graphing choice adds to the problem, IMHO. If I never ran a measurement in my life, bought OM and ran a sweep, I'd probably think I was stylin' and needed no tweaking whatsoever. In fact, that was the gist of the 3 posted OM graphs... that all you have to do is stick your sub in a room and run Audyssey and there you go. Bosso

Any contributor putting up OmniMic FR graphs, has full control over each axis. Upon opening the program, it defalts to a log 20-20k, and 50-85db vertical scale @ 5db per vertical division. Each axis is easily changed with a single click right there on the graph. The data point resolution has been covered.

REW has a nicer interface IMO, and ETC, OmniMic is phenomenally easy to set up and use.

-------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Ready to take some serious flames here but I have always believed and still say inductance IS important even for a sub driver. Just my opinion.

I fully realize I'm in the deep end here (and playin' some serious catch up) but this is a tremendous read, and do not wish to veer OT,...but why in the world wouldn't inductance matter in a subwoofer driver?

Signed, Heinrich Lenz (dba FOH)

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------------------------------------
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