Ficar SSD18 Group Buy Thread - Page 4 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I've already bought, built and tested a dozen Fi drivers. When you have 27-60 liters of displacement, proper signal shaping for the room/source and amps like the clones, the nuances evaporate.

Just my opinion, since it was elicited...

Bosso

^^^^^^^

VERY true! Please people, pay close attention to this.


However....the XCON's are definitely $100 more beautiful, imo. That's what I'd pay extra for. But that's me.

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post #92 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Depending on pricing I *MIGHT* be in on 8 of them. That sub $300 figure sure is appealing!

20 sold price is $348
30 sold price is $323
50 sold price is $298

Holy smokes! I am in for 8 for sure, possibly 16 if we get 50!
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post #93 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 02:53 PM
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Sixteen 18"ers is insane. I like!

Hope you're gonna buy four 14k clones while you're at it.

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post #94 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sixteen 18"ers is insane. I like!

Hope you're gonna buy four 14k clones while you're at it.

That is the plan.
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post #95 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 03:00 PM
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Awesome. Make sure you forward all those shipments to me first... for ...ummm... "quality control". Yes.. that's the ticket.

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post #96 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 03:27 PM
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I have to do some simulation work to verify my applications for these, but I will most likely be in for 2. If the cutoff date is far enough away, there is an outside chance of 4.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #97 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post


Before everyone gets all crazy here and buys 16 of them we haven't actually used one of these yet. I suspect they are good since they are Fi built but who knows. I am willing to put one on the short list to get it slapped into a 4cube sealed enclosure, take some frequency response and parameter measurements and see what is what. I could get atleast some basic stuff done within a couple of days of getting the driver. Anybody willing to chip in on that endeavor?

You know I'm down to order some. I put my 18av2's up for sale in the classifieds section (shameless plug). I emailed Aaron this morning to order either one or all 4 of mine today to get you for testing. If I hear back from him today I will order and drop one off when it comes in.
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post #98 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

IMO, the Xcon is the Fi Q, only $100 more. When you're talking about multi-driver sealed L/T, you will not experience an iota of difference in performance.

Personally, I would rather have Scott from Fi (and whomever from wherever else) show up here and tell us what the "shorting ring" does and doesn't do regarding FR and top end distortion and what if anything to expect in differences from the Q to the Xcon before considering a group buy and/or shelling out $ for sine wave testing.

If they aren't interested in doing that, they aren't interested in selling 50 drivers to a group.

I've already bought, built and tested a dozen Fi drivers. When you have 27-60 liters of displacement, proper signal shaping for the room/source and amps like the clones, the nuances evaporate.

Just my opinion, since it was elicited...

Bosso

A few of us have sent Scott emails with minimal traction in the past week. I'm sure he is busy like the rest of the world with the holidays fast approaching. Do you have any #'s on the Q's by chance like you did the SSD? The Xcon does seem like a good deal if it can be had for $300 though would you agree? That makes it slightly less than the Q + shorting ring (even though we can't confirm its effect). Aesthetically it is a superior looking driver in my opinion. Any comment on mechanical noise from the Q's or do they play fairly cleanly when you have used them in the past?
Thanks again for weighing in!
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post #99 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 04:39 PM
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is ssa a seperate company? do they just glue on a new cone and sell it for a hundred bucks more? i don't understand what the ssa xcon is. without the logo, they do look pretty nice.

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post #100 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 05:08 PM
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"If we could get the coils switched to copper, drop a couple of spiders (I don't think we need 5 since most of the HT crowd isn't going to be slamming them with a bunch of power below tuning in a vented enclosure.) and remove the logo I think we'd be in business."

what is the advantage of the copper coil?

how many spiders do you need in a sealed enclosure that is not over powered? two would seem sufficient. this will increase compliance and holding all else equal, it will reduce qe, fs, and enclosure size while preserving a potentially exact same frequency response.

agree, dump the logo for home use.

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post #101 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

is ssa a seperate company? do they just glue on a new cone and sell it for a hundred bucks more? i don't understand what the ssa xcon is. without the logo, they do look pretty nice.

Fi is a build house. They build for SSA, Ascendent Audio, JTR (I'm betting), Crossfire, Etc...
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post #102 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Judging from the manufacturer specs you could probably get away with jamming these into even 3 or 3.5ft without anything too detrimental. qtc is 0.835 in 3 cubic foot. 4.5 looks about right though. The 15's could go in 2ft.

Before everyone gets all crazy here and buys 16 of them we haven't actually used one of these yet. I suspect they are good since they are Fi built but who knows. I am willing to put one on the short list to get it slapped into a 4cube sealed enclosure, take some frequency response and parameter measurements and see what is what. I could get atleast some basic stuff done within a couple of days of getting the driver. Anybody willing to chip in on that endeavor?

I'd pony up some cash for this...
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post #103 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 05:30 PM
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Hmm, this is interesting. I'd take at least a pair of XCON 18s, they keep up with the RCF 21s. The falling response above 50hz is fine as I run the kickbins as well and may even help mitigate some upper order harmonics.

If these will take an honest 1750w for 6-8 hours 20hz up, I'll use 4 of them in the PA instead of the 21s. I'll acid test them. I vote to keep all 5 spiders lol.

This sim is pretty telling. Pink is the Peavey LR18 I am currently running, Yellow is SSD18, Green is RCF21, White is XCON. Graph is max SPL, better quality attached.




I am currently table flat free field ground plane, from 30-300 with the LR18/Sigma 18 kick combo. The kicks can way outrun the subbass so the 21s or XCON could be the answer. This REW sweep has 1/3oct smoothing, and was taken at the end of my driveway.

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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #104 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 06:30 PM
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Wi, you weren't kidding about the output of that RCF. Thing smokes your LR18 right in the most meaty part of the bass spectrum.

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post #105 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 07:52 PM
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i would think that you could replace the low rider and the sigma 18 with the rcf, but maybe you should break that off into another topic.

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post #106 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 08:11 PM
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"Fi is a build house. They build for SSA, Ascendent Audio, JTR (I'm betting), Crossfire, Etc..."

roger that. ssa and ssd were confusing me. ssd is a fi driver [edit: correction, they are not]. ssa is a reseller of fi products [edit: correction, they are not.] (http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/). looks like the aluminum cone front of the ssa is an addition, as the back of the driver shows a pulp cone. is that an ssa option or a fi option?

now bosso's comment makes sense to me that this is just a fi q for a $100 more...but it does have an aesthetic element where that matters.

ricci, what is the advantage of the copper coil that you suggested?
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post #107 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

If these will take an honest 1750w for 6-8 hours 20hz up, I'll use 4 of them in the PA instead of the 21s. I'll acid test them. I vote to keep all 5 spiders lol.

FWIW, I had an Xcon 15" in a ~3.5cf @ 35hz box and then again in a 1.3cf sealed box... no trouble handling 1200w RMS fromr a Sundown Audio SAE-1200d amp.
Used it for over a year in two different cars, and I'm a basshead
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post #108 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

ricci, what is the advantage of the copper coil that you suggested?

The copper coil is a heavier coil and adds mass to the moving assembly. In comparison to the stock coil, or the flatwound coil, this has the smoothest transitions musically speaking. It is less likely to peak, and is a better overall sub for more Sound Quality based daily drivers. 


Hoping to know all of the specifics by end of the week so I can get you guys hard #'s on an exact direction that makes the most sense for us as a group. The Xcon pricing stands as is currently (looking to make minor tweaks if possible) and removing the labels should be no problem. I'm exploring a couple other avenues to save cost on similar drivers and shipping if possible. Chances are I will start a new thread with all exact details about the buy once they have been agreed upon. All these suggestions and discussion help immensely, but I have a feeling it will get cluttered as far as tracking who wants what by the end of the week. I will PM all of you interested in the group buy with the link to the new thread so no one misses it hopefully by end of week.

Eric
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post #109 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 09:57 PM
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Cool, thanks Eric.
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post #110 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

The copper coil is a heavier coil and adds mass to the moving assembly. In comparison to the stock coil, or the flatwound coil, this has the smoothest transitions musically speaking. It is less likely to peak, and is a better overall sub for more Sound Quality based daily drivers. 


Hoping to know all of the specifics by end of the week so I can get you guys hard #'s on an exact direction that makes the most sense for us as a group. The Xcon pricing stands as is currently (looking to make minor tweaks if possible) and removing the labels should be no problem. I'm exploring a couple other avenues to save cost on similar drivers and shipping if possible. Chances are I will start a new thread with all exact details about the buy once they have been agreed upon. All these suggestions and discussion help immensely, but I have a feeling it will get cluttered as far as tracking who wants what by the end of the week. I will PM all of you interested in the group buy with the link to the new thread so no one misses it hopefully by end of week.

Eric

Looking forward to the new details that surface. I'm down for a clean cone with no logo, for sure.

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post #111 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 10:15 PM
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Very cool! Cant wait to get the details. By the look of some of the replies, I think 50 drivers should be very attainable.

At the very least the Xcon sure looks SEXY as hell!
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post #112 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 10:23 PM
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"The copper coil is a heavier coil and adds mass to the moving assembly. In comparison to the stock coil, or the flatwound coil, this has the smoothest transitions musically speaking. It is less likely to peak, and is a better overall sub for more Sound Quality based daily drivers."

no offense, but what the heck does that mean? i was looking for something related to driver performance such as resistance, heat transfer rate, inductance, bl differences, etc.

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post #113 of 535 Old 12-20-2011, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The copper coil is a heavier coil and adds mass to the moving assembly. In comparison to the stock coil, or the flatwound coil, this has the smoothest transitions musically speaking. It is less likely to peak, and is a better overall sub for more Sound Quality based daily drivers."

no offense, but what the heck does that mean? i was looking for something related to driver performance such as resistance, heat transfer rate, inductance, bl differences, etc.

Pulled that direct from Fi site.
According to Sundown Audio

The main difference is you will have a longer winding on the coil with aluminum than copper to achieve the same thermal potential. Copper will give a little stronger BL and is a better conductor of electricity, lower Fs. Aluminum weighs less than copper does, handles heat better, costs less.

Copper has 56% more BL than AL
Copper is 300% more mass than AL
Copper is about 60% more thermally conductive.
Copper is more expensive.


I think the real debate lies in whether or not there is an audible difference in sound quality/linearity etc. There seems to be some debate on this for both sides.
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post #114 of 535 Old 12-21-2011, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgse3 View Post

A few of us have sent Scott emails with minimal traction in the past week. I'm sure he is busy like the rest of the world with the holidays fast approaching. Do you have any #'s on the Q's by chance like you did the SSD? The Xcon does seem like a good deal if it can be had for $300 though would you agree? That makes it slightly less than the Q + shorting ring (even though we can't confirm its effect). Aesthetically it is a superior looking driver in my opinion. Any comment on mechanical noise from the Q's or do they play fairly cleanly when you have used them in the past?
Thanks again for weighing in!

If the Xcon can be had for $300, what can the Q be had for?

The "shorting ring" is $0 right now, from what I can see.

Self noise: I have the previous Fis. They have a huge pole vent. I've already said I have no experience with the new "no pole vent" motors (both Xcon & Q, as they're the same motor). I've already voiced my concern about what that might mean to self noise. Car audio buyers are kinda devoid of feedback data, but I would have thought Scott would address my Q. He is, as you say, apparently "Too Busy".

To be perfectly honest, the "I'm too busy" thing is BS. It has soured me to Fi. I don't spend thousands of $$ with jackasses who have the stones to justify ignoring basic Qs with "I'm too busy".

You guys do realize that the "cone" you lust after is just a glorified dust cap, not an aluminum cone, right? Aesthetically, I see the same difference between the Q and Xcon I see in Scott's model of the FR comparo, or basically none. I'm just used to the cone/dust cap that's been used on every driver I've built with, save the aluminum TC and AE stuff, which I don't like for mechanical reasons.



It's the same driver. Qts is higher with the heat ring (shorting ring), all else is nearly identical and so will performance be.

The only legitimate Q, IMO, with these drivers is self-noise from no pole vent. That's a LOT of pressure on the dust cap and a LOT of air to route on the back side. I've decided to pass on the purchase and let others be the guinea
pigs on that front.

Bosso
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post #115 of 535 Old 12-21-2011, 07:42 AM
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Thank you Eric for the invite over. I was watching the topic, and hesitated to reply as I did not see the need until some incorrect sweeping generalizations were posted.

Let's start with the basics:

~ SSAudio and Fi are two companies and two different brands
~ SSAudio sub woofers are not and I repeat, are not rebadged Fi drivers
~ The SSAudio Xcon and Fi Q are NOT the same sub woofer
~ The SSAudio Xcon and Fi Q do NOT have the same motor
~ SSAudio is not a re-seller of Fi products

Now, I am very hesitant to do a group buy as the one's we have done in the past were massive amounts of work, with a drastic slash into our tiny profit margin with very little benefit in the end to us. In turn, the customers will never return until there is another group buy, as by it's nature, a group buy severely damages the value of a product. Especially for such a small volume production brand as we (SSAudio) are. With that said, we are not going to modify the driver design/make-up or remove logo's, sorry.

With some of these misconceptions, a few I am very surprised to see on a home audio board (generic car audio board understandable but not here), need to be corrected. Yes, SSAudio and Fi share some bits as it is only natural, but we share some standard bits with numerous drivers sold by many other brands or dealers that have nothing to do with our build house. So to say the Xcon and the Q is the same driver based on some pictures and a few plots is not what I expected from this site. We (SSAudio), actually make a point of trying to slot our drivers away from Fi/Ascendant Audio drivers for this exact reason, as our existence would be pointless if we didn't.

As for some details, the Xcon uses a different motor, a different pole, a different slug (both in ID and OD), different suspension, different top plate, different leads, different back plate, different coil etc. etc. etc than the Fi Q does the last time I checked. The Xcon has a shorting ring to help with inductance because it has such a long coil. I do not want to at all, get into the tiny nuances of fighting over response graphs or nit picking specs, as we can plot out a thousand graphs, and run it through as many different software's as we like, but they will only tell part of the story. We deal with that constantly on many car audio boards as people will run drivers through WinISD. They will gravitate to minute little variances or inaudible differences that barely show up on response graphs and that drives their decision.

In terms of Scott and being busy, if people had any idea as to how much he has on his plate, how many hours he works, and how little a margin he has to work with (which limits man-power badly), then the understanding of how busy he is would be very clear. He has never told anyone that he was too busy for them. From the customers perspective, their email is the most important thing and they usually do not understand that there are countless other emails that never stop coming in, NONE are more important then the next. Yes, the volume order of a group buy is great, but that does not mean the endless emails in front are less important or should be skipped. Mark and I can barely keep up with emails for SSAudio, and I kid you not, I am answering them from 8am throughout the day until 11pm nearly everyday, and SSAudio is not even our day job's. Some Sunday's, I just have to walk away from the computer. I cannot imagine how Scott can keep up with emails as they have magnitudes more name recognition, far more sales and a much much bigger customer base then we do.

Aaron Clinton ~ SSAudio Inc.
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post #116 of 535 Old 12-21-2011, 07:51 AM
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Hey Bosso...

I follow you and we are on pretty much the same page. I have been talking with Tgse3 a lot behind the scenes. Of course it is preferred to deal directly with Fi and Scott to cut out any middle man and keep costs as low as possible. Also it would be best if Scott would take our application (small sealed and L/T'd) and tweak something custom for that. It is difficult getting a response from Fi on that though as you know.

Regarding the Xcon...Yes it is very likely very similar. I don't know where the idea that it was an aluminum cone came from, when it is obviously not. Tell you the truth I'm not a big fan of the metal cones to begin with. Yes it is just a big concave dustcap just like what is used on the XXX. I do like that look and so do others it seems. One of my issues with the Q and Fi in general is that they offer these options on their subs that change the attributes some but they do not list what the effect is...So you want to go with copper coils and the shorting ring on the Q driver but you can only get that with the "high QTS" option. How much of a difference are we talking about? We can assume that it ends up similar to what the Xcon parameters are, which is what I suspect as well, but who knows really? I also have the same questions about mechanical or air flow noise due to having no pole vent. The SSD lacks a pole vent now as well as the Q doesn't it?

The other thing that I am interested in is what the inductance and top end roll off looks like. A lot of the modern drivers have a very large amount of inductance and I have seen some jacked up units since I have been doing the DB thing. A little roll off and a small peak is ok but 5-10dB roll off by even 100Hz is not that uncommon. That's what kills me is that the LE can have a huge impact on the response shape and also the efficiency such that to not include it means that you basically don't know really what you are working with. The other problem? A 1khz rating is pretty much useless for sub modeling even if the mfg does give you that. Then you have all of the bench racing of drivers in Winisd or whatever that goes on and most of them are probably quite inaccurate to what is actual. I crossover higher than most so the top end up to 200Hz matters to me. That's why I want to play with a driver or 2. The best stuff I have seen on the Fi drivers is your feedback so far, so thanks for that.




Edit: I see that Aaron posted while I was writing mine... Well that clears up some of the speculation I guess. Thanks for taking the time to post Aaron.
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post #117 of 535 Old 12-21-2011, 08:12 AM
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Thanks for chiming in Aaron!
I was hoping you would shed light on some questions people have. The first thing I will always run to bat for someone over is customer service. Aaron has been very thorough and prompt in dealing with this group buy. I know he is hesitant because of the extra work load and headache this can add for him and SSA. I would ask you guys to keep in mind there are no other drivers in the $300 range with performance on paper/aesthetics like the Xcon. We have seen the Mal-X go under, TC LMS is 3 times the cost, Pi-18 doesn't exist, AV drivers are dead, etc. Again I reiterate doing a group buy is in my eyes very beneficial both for the group and SSA. They have minimal HT following and we as a group have minimal high xmax 18 options.
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post #118 of 535 Old 12-21-2011, 08:26 AM
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Eric, thanks again for the positive feedback. I don't want people to think we are just middle men, because we are not just slapping a Cadillac badge on a Vaxhall. And yes, Fi can offer a little better value on their drivers as they are factory direct. The SSD is one of the very best values on the market, regardless of home or car audio. Our Icon is not too shabby either.

Aaron Clinton ~ SSAudio Inc.
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post #119 of 535 Old 12-21-2011, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Clinton View Post

Eric, thanks again for the positive feedback. I don't want people to think we are just middle men, because we are not just slapping a Cadillac badge on a Vaxhall. And yes, Fi can offer a little better value on their drivers as they are factory direct. The SSD is one of the very best values on the market, regardless of home or car audio. Our Icon is not too shabby either.

Thought some of you guys would like this link for the Icon.

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/f...pdangs-review/
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post #120 of 535 Old 12-21-2011, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Clinton View Post

~ The SSAudio Xcon and Fi Q are NOT the same sub woofer

Sure they are. No one has said SSA is rebadged Fi.

I wholeheartedly agree that there will only be irrelevant differences in the graphs of the 2 drivers, and I've already said so, but that doesn't mesh very well with your position that they're completely different drivers.

Of course, the whole "thousand graphs" thing was a bit much, but you're the guy who can post the actual frequency response (if you can possibly find the time). If you can't, then how on earth does it leave you 'very surprised' to see software and photo speculation here? What else is there without data?

Quote:


He has never told anyone that he was too busy for them.

I'd love to know how you know that. (It's rhetorical. You don't know that.)

Quote:


Some Sunday's, I just have to walk away from the computer. I cannot imagine how Scott can keep up with emails as they have magnitudes more name recognition, far more sales and a much much bigger customer base then we do.

As I said, "too busy".

Hopefully, you're over the defensive position and can actually answer some questions. If not, I understand and maybe there are folks here who prefer to be talked down to and still spend $50,000.00 blindly. I'm not one of them.

I've never owned a long throw 15 or 18 with no pole vent, so I don't think it's a silly detail to ask for data regarding the self-noise from the air having only one way out of the gap. Folks have asked me because I've used Fi drivers, but they've all had huge pole vents, so I just don't know the answer.

How does the shorting ring affect FR? What is the top end roll off from the peak in the suggested Vb?

Yes, the Icon is "not too shabby". I see you have pinned a (partial) Klippel report that shows the effect of Le on the FR. It doesn't have to be Klippel, just a free air sweep or same in your suggested box.

[These should already have been answered instead of taking 10 times what it would to answer the Qs to explain why you can't or won't.]

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